MANCHESTER - 9
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Good to see the CX launch still getting loads of publicity not just in UK but throughout the Far East. The internet has certainly made mass publicity a lot easier.
Just one example here 國泰航空全新曼徹斯特服務 十二月正式啟航
Apparently we are the second largest "metropolis" outside London.
You will have to translate using Google Tools to see what's behind the headline !
Lots of conjecture as well about Air China and indeed Hainan Airlines serving Beijing.
Also another forum is suggesting BA are thinking about re opening a base at MAN....
Now let's consider where they would operate;
New York
Dubai
Hong Kong
Toronto
All maybes i suspect
Just one example here 國泰航空全新曼徹斯特服務 十二月正式啟航
Apparently we are the second largest "metropolis" outside London.
You will have to translate using Google Tools to see what's behind the headline !
Lots of conjecture as well about Air China and indeed Hainan Airlines serving Beijing.
Also another forum is suggesting BA are thinking about re opening a base at MAN....
Now let's consider where they would operate;
New York
Dubai
Hong Kong
Toronto
All maybes i suspect
Last edited by Bagso; 21st Apr 2014 at 16:55.
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Just been to look at some new houses on a development in Sandbach and the sales lady said there are 2 pilots living on this estate, one is about to leave Ryanair to join Norwegian Air Shuttle on flights from Manchester.....
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Zero chance of BA doing anything at MAN. They couldn't be bothered when they had the chance of running a mini-hub and use of their (part paid for) terminal, The overriding factor being that they would prefer passengers routing over LHR. And that CAPA report does include Walsh saying
"BA would face two unsustainable options: using a normal premium-heavy aircraft out of Manchester despite the limited premium traffic, or have a second configuration with lower premium seat exposure but at the expense of efficiency and scale"
"BA would face two unsustainable options: using a normal premium-heavy aircraft out of Manchester despite the limited premium traffic, or have a second configuration with lower premium seat exposure but at the expense of efficiency and scale"
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Also another forum is suggesting BA are thinking about re opening a base at
MAN....
MAN....
Despite the tag 'London Airways' and the fact they are quite hated by some in the regions, BA actually holds some affection to MAN, and I can tell you now, despite serving ORD for 28 years and now JFK, AA would have given up on MAN 4 years ago if it not were for BA, so it does have some credit.
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and I can tell you now, despite serving ORD for 28 years and now JFK, AA would have given up on MAN 4 years ago if it not were for BA, so it does have some credit.
I do disagree with the use of the word "affection", it's pure business. BA won't look seriously at MAN again for a while in my view, simply because many of the people who made the decision to leave are still there. They remember how hard it is for British Airways and it's unique organisation and way of doing things to succeed in that kind of venture. It's plain wrong to say they couldn't be bothered when history shows they operated a whole network from MAN for my whole life until the recent closure. I am not imagining the noise those BAC111s made, however it was always supported by traffic interlining from Scotland, something that was later pushed via LHR for good commercial reasons and also went direct with the coming of the locos. Remember MAN/BHX got all the directs where us Scots had to connect, sound familiar? GLA had one single non stop GLA-Europe (CDG) that I can recall. The support mechanism for that hub, the Scottish feed is lost to direct traffic so you'd be looking at a point to point into Europe against a point to hub (KLM/ AF / LX / LH / TP) competition or a loco with costs BA can only dream of.
The reason BAC111s flew against new B737s and A320s for so long was BA saw no return in investment at BHX/MAN and the operation died a slow death by a thousand cuts.
Do you lot really think this is anything but good business? There's no way for BA to win at MAN. No feed at either end, EZY with a lower cost base, the Euro legacies with a feed at the other end. What's the solution guys? The B767s are not a "bit past it", they're unreliable heaps that customers hate flying on and there's no business case for the B787-8 out of MAN unless and AA decide to switch MAN to BA when the B763s finally retire.
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I see Skippy is sitting "on the fence" as usual".
My goodness BA Glasgow - Paris , heady stuff indeed, those were the days, that said I recall BEL And EDI to PWK on a Viscount. What a seat filler that must have been !
I may be jumping the gun but shall don my hard hat, are the words 'I have a cunning "BA" plan' marching with ill-deserved confidence in the direction of this conversation?.
My goodness BA Glasgow - Paris , heady stuff indeed, those were the days, that said I recall BEL And EDI to PWK on a Viscount. What a seat filler that must have been !
I may be jumping the gun but shall don my hard hat, are the words 'I have a cunning "BA" plan' marching with ill-deserved confidence in the direction of this conversation?.
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My point is BA had no commitment or ability to make services run out of GLA/EDI to Europe, everything fed through BHX/LHR and to a lesser extent MAN.
I am pretty pro BA but they cannot make it work at MAN. If they ever did try long haul on a B787-8, they end up doing what SWISS are trying, have a different pilot group flying them.
The BOAC/Cambrian operated Viscount feeders on BFS and EDI-PIK are classic examples of unfocussed marketing. They were already offering EDI-LHR-world and competing with themselves.
Link please? 
I am pretty pro BA but they cannot make it work at MAN. If they ever did try long haul on a B787-8, they end up doing what SWISS are trying, have a different pilot group flying them.
The BOAC/Cambrian operated Viscount feeders on BFS and EDI-PIK are classic examples of unfocussed marketing. They were already offering EDI-LHR-world and competing with themselves.
...you forget some claim to have professional inside information, yet we never have it confirmed how or where..... Mmm.
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 21st Apr 2014 at 23:05.
GLA had one single non stop GLA-Europe (CDG) that I can recall
Reverse the process in the morning picking up "our" crew in GLA for a mid morning GLA - MAN.
All lots of fun, 4 sectors in the log book and the rest of the day off..
Never more than 20 pax though ....
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Skipness, I agree with your comments, BA had fairly substantial ops at MAN with good facilities, similarly at BHX with the purpose built Eurohub, designed to facilitate transfer traffic. I have experience of the latter mainly, but during 1990's through to BACON days this was quite effective. I always thought that BA was committed to both MAN and BHX. In fact to be fair they did invest in equipment, I remember the 1-11's being replaced by the 737's and then these were replaced with new A319's. These were BA's first order for the A320 family and the first deliveries were placed at BHX followed by MAN not LHR. Although looking at the present, whilst both MAN ad BHX facilitated BA very well, I think MAN came out of the post BA period better than BHX, who put too many eggs in one basket. However it does seem that BA's lack of regional presence has helped KLM/AIR FRANCE/LUFTHANSA etc. to grow their UK market share.
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This seems to be a golden year of new services to Manchester with growth across several markets (beach, city, long haul, low-service, high-service) and yet the old "why won't British Airways be my friend" rants are in full force.
BA are a business and have decided that their profitability can best be achieved through focused resources and channeling people through their hub in Heathrow (and to a lesser extent, Gatwick). As others have pointed out, this is no different from most European majors (even Lufthansa are moving this way in a far more decentralised country).
MAN is obviously doing something right, as it has a hugely diversified airline portfolio and I've no doubt this success will continue. However, the "London Airways" chip-on-shoulder rants are tedious.
BA are a business and have decided that their profitability can best be achieved through focused resources and channeling people through their hub in Heathrow (and to a lesser extent, Gatwick). As others have pointed out, this is no different from most European majors (even Lufthansa are moving this way in a far more decentralised country).
MAN is obviously doing something right, as it has a hugely diversified airline portfolio and I've no doubt this success will continue. However, the "London Airways" chip-on-shoulder rants are tedious.
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The only aspect I can contribute to the BA debate is to ask a question.
Under the BA/AA arrangement/joint venture or whatever the correct term is, if (and it's a big "if") BA were to operate MAN-ORD or MAN-JFK instead of AA, would they have full connectivity from the AA hubs? In other words, would it be point to hub rather than point to point as it was for BA in earlier years to the US from MAN?
And how would BA's ability to attract premium traffic from MAN compare with AA? Whether it would be more or less attractive for pax is a different matter.
However, given the fact that it would require separately configured a/c, I don't suppose it's remotely a starter, or would a B787 be a consideration?
On a different topic, with probably more mileage in it, I see from a recent posting that the Norwegian rumour has raised its head again. But if a small base at MAN were to open, what routes would they operate? Could they find a niche, or would it be simply to compete with all the other airlines to the Iberian sunspots?
Under the BA/AA arrangement/joint venture or whatever the correct term is, if (and it's a big "if") BA were to operate MAN-ORD or MAN-JFK instead of AA, would they have full connectivity from the AA hubs? In other words, would it be point to hub rather than point to point as it was for BA in earlier years to the US from MAN?
And how would BA's ability to attract premium traffic from MAN compare with AA? Whether it would be more or less attractive for pax is a different matter.
However, given the fact that it would require separately configured a/c, I don't suppose it's remotely a starter, or would a B787 be a consideration?
On a different topic, with probably more mileage in it, I see from a recent posting that the Norwegian rumour has raised its head again. But if a small base at MAN were to open, what routes would they operate? Could they find a niche, or would it be simply to compete with all the other airlines to the Iberian sunspots?
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I am pretty pro BA but they cannot make it work at MAN. If they ever did try
long haul on a B787-8, they end up doing what SWISS are trying, have a different pilot group flying them
long haul on a B787-8, they end up doing what SWISS are trying, have a different pilot group flying them
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That's cabin crew having smashed BASSA.
I meant flight deck, as in off the main seniority list like their "colleagues" at BA CityFlyer who fly in BA uniform but at a fraction of the cost of mainline. The threat of a second seniority list and a stand alone low cost subsidiary modelled on Iberia Express flying out of LHR was used as negotiation strategy when BALPA was fighting to get the BMI crew onto the main seniority list.
Any attempt by BA to use even cheaper crew to fly out of MAN would be a kick in the balls to the current pilot group. That would not come free I might suggest, it would be rightly seen as an attack on existing terms and conditions and a potential trojan horse to expand into mainline territory at LGW then LHR. So, in my view, before going down that path, there would have to be a major payoff were BA to fight and win that battle at another battering to staff morale and potential strike action.
I meant flight deck, as in off the main seniority list like their "colleagues" at BA CityFlyer who fly in BA uniform but at a fraction of the cost of mainline. The threat of a second seniority list and a stand alone low cost subsidiary modelled on Iberia Express flying out of LHR was used as negotiation strategy when BALPA was fighting to get the BMI crew onto the main seniority list.
Any attempt by BA to use even cheaper crew to fly out of MAN would be a kick in the balls to the current pilot group. That would not come free I might suggest, it would be rightly seen as an attack on existing terms and conditions and a potential trojan horse to expand into mainline territory at LGW then LHR. So, in my view, before going down that path, there would have to be a major payoff were BA to fight and win that battle at another battering to staff morale and potential strike action.
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But Skipness, you have already said it yourself.
They already have the citiflyer pilots, set a precedent within IAG by way of Iberia express.
They have already stuck 2 fingers up to BASSA by recruiting mixed fleet crew, do you honestly see BA suddenly running scared on this one after setting up 3 other groups? Nah, don't see it myself.
Im not for one second suggesting BA are setting up another pilot group, but, merely suggesting its not beyond the realms of possibility that BA could consider it should the need arise....
They already have the citiflyer pilots, set a precedent within IAG by way of Iberia express.
They have already stuck 2 fingers up to BASSA by recruiting mixed fleet crew, do you honestly see BA suddenly running scared on this one after setting up 3 other groups? Nah, don't see it myself.
Im not for one second suggesting BA are setting up another pilot group, but, merely suggesting its not beyond the realms of possibility that BA could consider it should the need arise....
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"London Airways" chip-on-shoulder rants are tedious
I must have missed those ?
I'm all for our National Carrier joining the Mancunian party as long as they they don't spoil it, (...in that respect their old record remains unblemished).
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For those who doubt what could be achieved IF local tribalism buried its head here is an excellent article from The Economist.
The industrial north: Never walk alone | The Economist
The GDP of those economically linked areas Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield equates to a figure of 60% compared to London and MANCHESTER is at the centre of that !
If only we had a Government or Politicians with will power to integrate and transform !
The benefits for the North and Manchester Airport would not just be good but stratospheric !
I must have missed those ?
I'm all for our National Carrier joining the Mancunian party as long as they they don't spoil it, (...in that respect their old record remains unblemished).
----------------------------------
For those who doubt what could be achieved IF local tribalism buried its head here is an excellent article from The Economist.
The industrial north: Never walk alone | The Economist
The GDP of those economically linked areas Liverpool, Leeds, Sheffield equates to a figure of 60% compared to London and MANCHESTER is at the centre of that !
If only we had a Government or Politicians with will power to integrate and transform !
The benefits for the North and Manchester Airport would not just be good but stratospheric !
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I know it's possible, the key point being is going against your own pilots for a few borderline long haul routes worth it? It would be seen as an attack future career prospects and imposition whilst possible, would, in my view end in industrial action. All for one MAN-JFK or ORD? I don't see it as worth the candle and nothing WW or the board have said would suggest otherwise.
A small base with ER7/ER9s on the CFE AOC might be possible but again there's the competitive disadvantage of having no feed at either end without the bankers with more money than sense that support LCY doing this.
1) That's a misleading term as we haven't had a "national carrier" since privatisation in 1987.
2) You say that as if BA didn't operate a domestic shuttle operation at all from MAN.
A small base with ER7/ER9s on the CFE AOC might be possible but again there's the competitive disadvantage of having no feed at either end without the bankers with more money than sense that support LCY doing this.
I'm all for our National Carrier joining the Mancunian party as long as they
2) You say that as if BA didn't operate a domestic shuttle operation at all from MAN.