CARDIFF - 2
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if the wg want to involve themselves in aviation why dont they lease 3 a320`s, base them at cardiff, entice tim back from the middle east to run this new airline under an independant company and instead of calling it ffb they could call it wag air.
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entice tim back from the middle east to run this new airline under an independant company and instead of calling it ffb they could call it wag air.
Apparently.
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St Athan is the right way to go
Blue Up has a good point with rail connections outside the door, closer to the M4 and so on, we already have a airstrip desperate to be developed, no restrictions, RAF grade, St Athan could be reinvigorated and become the new Cardiff Wales airport. Why bother spending more than you have to!
Last edited by bcn_boy; 19th Dec 2012 at 14:56.
I despair of the kind of left-wing politicians who are behind the ludicrous idea of buying CWL. They generally have never run anything in their lives, yet feel they can do a better job than the professionals. Perhaps all those AMs who vote in favour of this lunacy should be made to accept personal responsibility for losses at CWL from completion.
Some posters have said that Abertis has "run CWL down". Abertis is a professional airport owner/operator that has been subject to the fury of the worst recession in living memory, in one of the poorer parts of the UK where propensity to travel is low. I'm sure the armchair critics of PPRuNe would do a brilliant job running an airport - until they had to meet the shareholders.
I have no wish to see any airport fail or close, but renationalizing an airport seems a guaranteed one-way ticket to failure. And what's more, the morons who have dreamed up this idea will be spending your money!
Some posters have said that Abertis has "run CWL down". Abertis is a professional airport owner/operator that has been subject to the fury of the worst recession in living memory, in one of the poorer parts of the UK where propensity to travel is low. I'm sure the armchair critics of PPRuNe would do a brilliant job running an airport - until they had to meet the shareholders.
I have no wish to see any airport fail or close, but renationalizing an airport seems a guaranteed one-way ticket to failure. And what's more, the morons who have dreamed up this idea will be spending your money!
Join Date: Dec 2012
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From what I have seen so far, CJ hasnt even consulted his fellow AMs before committing himself and the WAG to this purchase!
To be fair to the current airport management, I have felt for some time that despite their best efforts to move things along at CWL, that they have had their hands tied by the Spanish owners....at least that may change now...
To be fair to the current airport management, I have felt for some time that despite their best efforts to move things along at CWL, that they have had their hands tied by the Spanish owners....at least that may change now...
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With regards to St Athan about the only thing going for it is that it has a railway line alongside it and past the end of the runway, against it are that it is even further removed from Cardiff than is, the former, Glamorgan/Rhoose airfield and it only has a 6,000ft runway with public roads and a railway line off the runway end(s).
However ... the downside to that particular railway line is that it is the back line from Barry to Bridgend, the same line that serves Rhoose village and the current airport from there. There simply isn't a catchment for more than one train an hour.
Yes, there are bus services, by two operators, both to the current airport and past St Athan airfield to/from Llantwit Major but, again, services are hit and miss and come early morning and/or late evening "if at all".
This is what comes of utilising former military airfields out by the coast and/or in the countryside, they are rural locations with associated rural public transport services.
However ... the downside to that particular railway line is that it is the back line from Barry to Bridgend, the same line that serves Rhoose village and the current airport from there. There simply isn't a catchment for more than one train an hour.
Yes, there are bus services, by two operators, both to the current airport and past St Athan airfield to/from Llantwit Major but, again, services are hit and miss and come early morning and/or late evening "if at all".
This is what comes of utilising former military airfields out by the coast and/or in the countryside, they are rural locations with associated rural public transport services.
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I would imagine Willie Walsh and his mates might have thoughts on St Athan becoming the new airport as well... he built a hangar, and I would imagine he would take a dim view if he now has to sell it to B&Q....
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i'm sure the council just wants to buy in to protect itself and its income when its all converted to housing and business parks
Last edited by Heathrow Harry; 20th Dec 2012 at 12:02.
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Much better idea - Buy Llanwern build on new airport with rail and motorway links virtually already there. Scrap the bridge tolls and Market Market Market through out the South West. Oh and call it........ Seven Side........
TA I am running for the bunker again......
TA I am running for the bunker again......
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Very interesting timelines on this....
Just before Christmas, when peoples' minds are generally elsewhere, and before other AMs have had a chance to look at this, our esteemed First Minister makes this announcement.
First question is WHY did he make it? There is as yet no deal; due diligence hasn't been started yet, and he clearly doesn't yet have an operator for the airport contracted. He didn't need to say anything - and yet he did.
Second question - did anyone else think it was odd that CJ made specific mention of BAMC and saving jobs there in his announcement?
I'll tell you what's happened here - Abertis have said they are throwing in the towel, and closing the place, since they just can't attract any serious operators who are prepared to start a significant number of routes. They can't attract a low cost operator, and even the stalwarts amongst the IT operators are saying no thanks. So they gave notice to CJ, via the airport management (notice btw that the process to replace the MD has been stopped - why would you bother if you weren't going to keep the place open?)
So why are they throwing the towel in now? Well, perhaps they were hoping for a definitive statement on APD by CJ, instead of the 'perhaps, one day, maybe in a few years, and perhaps only on a few flights'. That sort of weak decision making would be enough for me to bring forward hard decisions.
CJ is now in a corner. He can either preside over the closure of Wales' only international airport, with all the flak he'd get for that, along with either having to cover the costs of that runway (and that's not cheap!) for BAMC, or watching them bid adieu as well. Or he does what every cornered socialist does, and reaches for the public tit to buy himself some time.
Take away all the 'oh god isn't Carwyn just fab' from the Labour sheeple who would vote for him if he stamped on orphans' kittens, and I can hear no coherent argument about buying this place, apart from 'anyone must be better than Abertis'. That's not a business case.
Carwyn has not spoken to any airlines; just the unions etc on his committee. Perhaps as a barrister, he is obeying his training about never asking a question if you don't want to hear the answer.
Behind all this is the elephant in the room. The Cardiff market. If you start from the premise that it is too small, too poor and with too good a competitor airport too close by, pretty much every event at Cardiff over the last five years falls into place. And public ownership will do little more than hand someone else the poison chalice.
By the way, AirGuru - Air Koryo may spring to your teenage brain, but if that was a dig at certain airline industry professionals, I suggest you may consider that many of them have fine reputations that they are willing to go to law to defend. Not the first time you have had a dig at people who do jobs well that you can only begin to dream about understanding. Pack it in please.
Just before Christmas, when peoples' minds are generally elsewhere, and before other AMs have had a chance to look at this, our esteemed First Minister makes this announcement.
First question is WHY did he make it? There is as yet no deal; due diligence hasn't been started yet, and he clearly doesn't yet have an operator for the airport contracted. He didn't need to say anything - and yet he did.
Second question - did anyone else think it was odd that CJ made specific mention of BAMC and saving jobs there in his announcement?
I'll tell you what's happened here - Abertis have said they are throwing in the towel, and closing the place, since they just can't attract any serious operators who are prepared to start a significant number of routes. They can't attract a low cost operator, and even the stalwarts amongst the IT operators are saying no thanks. So they gave notice to CJ, via the airport management (notice btw that the process to replace the MD has been stopped - why would you bother if you weren't going to keep the place open?)
So why are they throwing the towel in now? Well, perhaps they were hoping for a definitive statement on APD by CJ, instead of the 'perhaps, one day, maybe in a few years, and perhaps only on a few flights'. That sort of weak decision making would be enough for me to bring forward hard decisions.
CJ is now in a corner. He can either preside over the closure of Wales' only international airport, with all the flak he'd get for that, along with either having to cover the costs of that runway (and that's not cheap!) for BAMC, or watching them bid adieu as well. Or he does what every cornered socialist does, and reaches for the public tit to buy himself some time.
Take away all the 'oh god isn't Carwyn just fab' from the Labour sheeple who would vote for him if he stamped on orphans' kittens, and I can hear no coherent argument about buying this place, apart from 'anyone must be better than Abertis'. That's not a business case.
Carwyn has not spoken to any airlines; just the unions etc on his committee. Perhaps as a barrister, he is obeying his training about never asking a question if you don't want to hear the answer.
Behind all this is the elephant in the room. The Cardiff market. If you start from the premise that it is too small, too poor and with too good a competitor airport too close by, pretty much every event at Cardiff over the last five years falls into place. And public ownership will do little more than hand someone else the poison chalice.
By the way, AirGuru - Air Koryo may spring to your teenage brain, but if that was a dig at certain airline industry professionals, I suggest you may consider that many of them have fine reputations that they are willing to go to law to defend. Not the first time you have had a dig at people who do jobs well that you can only begin to dream about understanding. Pack it in please.
Last edited by TwinAisle; 22nd Dec 2012 at 05:22.
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TwinAisle - That is an excellent post and a mighty big elephant.
It is a few years since I ran an airline out of Cardiff but I do go back as far as the days of Donaldson International and BEA as far as marketing charter capacity and have seen them all come and go at Cardiff, have even been a Director of one or two along the way.
The market has changed over those years, the traditional Tour Operator that supported the majority of the traffic from Cardiff has been diluted by Low Cost Carriers and we are in the middle of the worst recession of recent years. The demand for the old style IT has diminished considerably.
There is still a demand for an airport at Cardiff but like so many struggling regional airports it needs to develop other revenue streams to support the few services that are viable to survive. Many airports survive with just a few regional full cost services plus ancilliary income.
To those that think low cost carriers are the salvation, they aren't, a shiny new terminal, it isn't. If you think Bristol shutting down thousands would flock to Cardiff they wouldn't. THE MARKET ISN'T THERE
If the deal does go through stop dreaming guys and certainly don't spend shed loads of money chasing fantasies.
It is a few years since I ran an airline out of Cardiff but I do go back as far as the days of Donaldson International and BEA as far as marketing charter capacity and have seen them all come and go at Cardiff, have even been a Director of one or two along the way.
The market has changed over those years, the traditional Tour Operator that supported the majority of the traffic from Cardiff has been diluted by Low Cost Carriers and we are in the middle of the worst recession of recent years. The demand for the old style IT has diminished considerably.
There is still a demand for an airport at Cardiff but like so many struggling regional airports it needs to develop other revenue streams to support the few services that are viable to survive. Many airports survive with just a few regional full cost services plus ancilliary income.
To those that think low cost carriers are the salvation, they aren't, a shiny new terminal, it isn't. If you think Bristol shutting down thousands would flock to Cardiff they wouldn't. THE MARKET ISN'T THERE
If the deal does go through stop dreaming guys and certainly don't spend shed loads of money chasing fantasies.
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Quote: "Much better idea - Buy Llanwern build on new airport with rail and motorway links virtually already there. Scrap the bridge tolls and Market Market Market through out the South West. Oh and call it........ Seven Side........"
Oh no, not another estuary airport.....yawn!
By the way, who pays for all this? How to they recoup their investment? How to persuade pax to use it? How to persuade airlines to leave BRS and CWL (and since you mention "through out the South West", EXT and NQY as well)?
Aaaagh, it's Silver island all over again!
Oh no, not another estuary airport.....yawn!
By the way, who pays for all this? How to they recoup their investment? How to persuade pax to use it? How to persuade airlines to leave BRS and CWL (and since you mention "through out the South West", EXT and NQY as well)?
Aaaagh, it's Silver island all over again!
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I suspect XTM's tongue was in his cheek, Frank... like the vast majority of us with a Cardiff interest, and with airline experience, I suspect he wrote off that crazy Severnside idea some years back....
... which probably means that our genius First Minister will be cutting the first sod by April, of course....
Thanks, Groundhog. I do try I do fear that I hit the nail on the head however. I hope I am wrong on this one.
TA
... which probably means that our genius First Minister will be cutting the first sod by April, of course....
Thanks, Groundhog. I do try
I do fear that I hit the nail on the head however. I hope I am wrong on this one. TA
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Tonge in check you know me to well TA. Still another one to ponder on..... Build off shore by Cardiff bay on stilts with water turbines built underneath (good for the green lobby). Link to the Penarth branch and the bay link road. You could also add a deep water port that does not need a lock system.
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I rather think the issue is that the location and construction of the airport are pretty moot; I can't help thinking that you could build Boris Island out in the Channel, but without a proven local market you might just as well forget that and stick with Upfield Farm...
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