MANCHESTER - 7
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MANFlyer, what you seem to forget is whether someone is a business or leisure traveller is irrelevant. At the end of the day, they are all revenue for the airlines and the airport and its vendors. Do you honestly think that Starbucks gives a damn if you are going to Palma or to Abu Dhabi? Do you think they say... "Hey! This guy has a BUSINESS class ticket! Make his coffee better!" Of course they don't. The only people that it matters to what class of ticket you have bought is the airlines and the pax themselves. If you want business class amenities, then buy a business class ticket. MAN does in fact have many business facilities. In T3 you have the BD and Star Alliance lounge, a BE Lounge and a BA Lounge. In T1 you have the Servisair Lounge and the EK Lounge. Not so certain about T2 because I don't work over there but I am certain that they have adequate facilities as well. That said, the problem as I see it is that the so called "Business Passenger" (who more often than not is actually on a Y ticket) wants the airport to kowtow to their every demand when simply put they don't pay for it. Why should the airport make concessions for you when you yourself said that all you want is to efficiently get on your way. You yourself said that you lot aren't interested in shopping et al so why should the airport bother. You still need to get to where you are going and therefore like it or not, you will continue to use the airport. Leisure travellers on the other hand DO like the shopping. They DO like a bite to eat before their flight and are willing to pay that extra bit because it is all part of the airport experience. The simple fact is that approximately 65% of destinations served from MAN are destinations preferred by holiday makers. With the exception of LHR, AMS, JFK, LAX and other so called "world class hubs", most airports are just like MAN. There is nothing from stopping you getting on the Virgin Train services to London (they do leave every 15 minutes!) and flying from LHR.
If you need directions to The Station, just let me know!
If you need directions to The Station, just let me know!
Pilot of the Airwaves
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65% of destinations served from MAN are destinations preferred by holiday makers.
Some of you at MAN need re-educating as to who makes up your passengers. The attitudes shown to some of us, who do not wear suits for business or travel other than for holiday purposes is appalling.
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Lets face it no one is the same, some want to direct from entrance to the aircraft
others like to a bit of shopping some have made quite a journey to the airport
and are hungry and thirsty and some just want something to do whilst they wait
because they are early or the flight delayed
Ian
others like to a bit of shopping some have made quite a journey to the airport
and are hungry and thirsty and some just want something to do whilst they wait
because they are early or the flight delayed
Ian
Pilot of the Airwaves
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Please enlighten me as too your 'airport of
choice'.
choice'.
Seems you must get some pleasure by posting irrelevent, sarcastic, drivel about other people's posts with no input to whatever subjects are under discussion.
Correct Mr Brooks.
There are times when one airside outlet may be of assistance on a journey. However generalising and trying to place people in specific type of traveller categories should be discouraged,as assumptions are then made affecting future planning at airports and by airlines based on this misinformation.
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mickyman
Please excuse my presumption in leaping to the defence of IB4138 as his/her post encapsulates my feelings. The post was not about defining anybody's perfect airport, it was against the small mindedness of some (many?) who post on here with a supposedly superior knowledge, and attitude, just because they work for an airport/airline/travel agent and make sweeping generalisations to try to prove a narrow minded and often spurious point.
Ian Brooks has it right in saying, essentially, that everyone is an individual and should be treated as such. By all means make the facilities available but do not expect to coral us into a demographic and cry when we don't use them. Personally I think MAN shops are overpriced.
Almost nobody can say where or what their perfect airport is, it depends on why the individual is travelling. Sometimes I am 'bucket & spade' but the chances of me shelling out for an overpriced latte in order to enhance my 'airport experience' are less than nil, most times I just want to get past the security bozos and to the gate as quickly as poss, especially in the case of UK airports.
Ian Brooks has it right in saying, essentially, that everyone is an individual and should be treated as such. By all means make the facilities available but do not expect to coral us into a demographic and cry when we don't use them. Personally I think MAN shops are overpriced.
Almost nobody can say where or what their perfect airport is, it depends on why the individual is travelling. Sometimes I am 'bucket & spade' but the chances of me shelling out for an overpriced latte in order to enhance my 'airport experience' are less than nil, most times I just want to get past the security bozos and to the gate as quickly as poss, especially in the case of UK airports.
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Originally Posted by al446
Personally I think MAN shops are overpriced.
Even WHSmith's charge more!
The escalator in T3 up from arrivals was moving on Wednesday when my buddy collected me and took me to his car. We went over the bridge and there then seemed to be another escalator out of action/being overhauled on the other side of the road. Looked more long term than the "arrivals" escalator work ever had.
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Hi IB4138,
I think that the message to be taken from this whole debate is that all Manchester Airport's customers deserve to be treated with respect and courtesy regardless of the category of travel they have booked. It is important not to pick out any group of people and deem them to be inferior to other groups, resulting in a preferential service for a select few. Customers who have paid the same user-charges deserve equal treatment. I recognize that those who pay extra for first-class or fast-track type products can expect more, but that is understandable.
The key is to have a range of facilities and services available for those who want to use them. You don't want to use shops: no problem, nobody will oblige you to do so. But many people do want the shops and it is great that their needs are met also. Some passengers like to book themselves into a business lounge: great, it is available for those who want it and not an obligatory extra for everybody else. We all have different requirements of our journey through the airport. Hopefully our personal expectations can be met by provision of those facilities which suit us as individuals, but not by the exclusion of facilities which are appreciated by others. So, shops/catering provided for those who want them, no obligation to use them upon those who don't. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
Actually, I suggest that MAN does a pretty good job of recognizing the diversity of its customer base. It is impossible to keep a diverse group of people 100% happy in a single space (eg. a departure lounge), but generally MAN does offer the facilities I would expect for either business or leisure travel. The airport has recently completed an expensive programme of terminal refurbishments to enhance the customer experience, and if you read back on this thread you will find postings by contributors who have written positively about the improvements. Yes, MAN isn't perfect - it still has leaky roofs, disfunctional lifts and coin-slot baggage trolleys - but it compares favourably with many other airports which I regularly use. And the investment at MAN has not been limited to revenue generating facilities only (shops etc.). The complete re-modeling of the security areas is one example of a particularly large investment by the airport which is not directly income-generating.
The main area where I diverge from your point of view regards the attitudes of MAN's customer-facing staff. You report that you have encountered appalling attitudes from the airport staff; clearly you have had bad experiences and I take you at your word. But I must balance your report by advising that I have found MA's own staff to be courteous and friendly when I use the airport (and I travel frequently). I always dress for comfort when traveling, and if a suit is required I change into it at my destination hotel if possible. I have never noticed any difference in the way I have been treated at MAN whether dressed smart or casual.
Of course, there may be a need to widen the interpretation of who we mean by Manchester Airport staff (I was referring to security and retail staff in the paragraph above). At the check-in stage there are certain carriers which enforce rigid luggage and documentation rules which can result in a very stressful and confrontational experience for some unwary passengers. I can well understand how those affected could leave MAN with a very negative overall impression. However, these carriers are not unique to MAN. But referring to MAG's own employees (not me, by the way!), I have no complaints about the attitudes I have encountered myself.
Ultimately, the MAN passenger experience is not perfect (it can't be). Many of the carriers operating there have wide diversity of customers even on the same flight (business, vacation, visiting friends/relations - all in one). But the terminals represent a close to best-case compromise considering the diversity of that customer base (something for everyone, no obligation to use unwanted facilities). If any PPRuNe contributors have particular suggestions for further improvements, why not write to the airport directly with your ideas? I'm sure they appreciate all constructive feedback - just avoid "close all shops now!" or "ban all holiday flights!" and the like.
Best regards to all (and apologies to those who resent long postings!),
SHED.
I think that the message to be taken from this whole debate is that all Manchester Airport's customers deserve to be treated with respect and courtesy regardless of the category of travel they have booked. It is important not to pick out any group of people and deem them to be inferior to other groups, resulting in a preferential service for a select few. Customers who have paid the same user-charges deserve equal treatment. I recognize that those who pay extra for first-class or fast-track type products can expect more, but that is understandable.
The key is to have a range of facilities and services available for those who want to use them. You don't want to use shops: no problem, nobody will oblige you to do so. But many people do want the shops and it is great that their needs are met also. Some passengers like to book themselves into a business lounge: great, it is available for those who want it and not an obligatory extra for everybody else. We all have different requirements of our journey through the airport. Hopefully our personal expectations can be met by provision of those facilities which suit us as individuals, but not by the exclusion of facilities which are appreciated by others. So, shops/catering provided for those who want them, no obligation to use them upon those who don't. Sounds like a reasonable compromise to me.
Actually, I suggest that MAN does a pretty good job of recognizing the diversity of its customer base. It is impossible to keep a diverse group of people 100% happy in a single space (eg. a departure lounge), but generally MAN does offer the facilities I would expect for either business or leisure travel. The airport has recently completed an expensive programme of terminal refurbishments to enhance the customer experience, and if you read back on this thread you will find postings by contributors who have written positively about the improvements. Yes, MAN isn't perfect - it still has leaky roofs, disfunctional lifts and coin-slot baggage trolleys - but it compares favourably with many other airports which I regularly use. And the investment at MAN has not been limited to revenue generating facilities only (shops etc.). The complete re-modeling of the security areas is one example of a particularly large investment by the airport which is not directly income-generating.
The main area where I diverge from your point of view regards the attitudes of MAN's customer-facing staff. You report that you have encountered appalling attitudes from the airport staff; clearly you have had bad experiences and I take you at your word. But I must balance your report by advising that I have found MA's own staff to be courteous and friendly when I use the airport (and I travel frequently). I always dress for comfort when traveling, and if a suit is required I change into it at my destination hotel if possible. I have never noticed any difference in the way I have been treated at MAN whether dressed smart or casual.
Of course, there may be a need to widen the interpretation of who we mean by Manchester Airport staff (I was referring to security and retail staff in the paragraph above). At the check-in stage there are certain carriers which enforce rigid luggage and documentation rules which can result in a very stressful and confrontational experience for some unwary passengers. I can well understand how those affected could leave MAN with a very negative overall impression. However, these carriers are not unique to MAN. But referring to MAG's own employees (not me, by the way!), I have no complaints about the attitudes I have encountered myself.
Ultimately, the MAN passenger experience is not perfect (it can't be). Many of the carriers operating there have wide diversity of customers even on the same flight (business, vacation, visiting friends/relations - all in one). But the terminals represent a close to best-case compromise considering the diversity of that customer base (something for everyone, no obligation to use unwanted facilities). If any PPRuNe contributors have particular suggestions for further improvements, why not write to the airport directly with your ideas? I'm sure they appreciate all constructive feedback - just avoid "close all shops now!" or "ban all holiday flights!" and the like.
Best regards to all (and apologies to those who resent long postings!),
SHED.
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Good post shed.
However it is not just the staff of the airport who need in some cases looking at... a few are in my opinion unemployable with terrible attitudes, but still have customer facing jobs......but the airlines themselves, who's handling agents and their own staff, including cabin staff based at MAN, have the " you are a holidaymaker" mentality . They seem unable to comprehend that a British Citizen, may not live in the UK and are infact going home to their country of residence.
They have attitudes that I will not put up with, being an expat, do not accept or receive here in Spain and I will be vocal about them, instead of cowtowing to the perceived "norm" that a great majority of UK dwellers do.
Even customer service staff at airlines sidestep written complaints about specific members of cabin staff, aircraft seating, cancelled flights and handling agents. They are not alone in such behaviour in the UK transport industry, as Northern Rail will also not reply to complaints about their staff. It appears to be a British disease these days.
Don't get me wrong. I like using MAN and in particular T3 with Easyjet, who now have all my business, when I fly to and from the UK. I will admit to being a "plus card "holder, but that suits me. There are however certain individuals at MAN, who I would probably count on the fingers of one hand, who go out of their way to be obstructive to passengers. Complaints about them have no effect, they still reappear at the airport, instead of at the Job Center.
Strangely enough, I do not have recollections of airport staff at Gatwick or Luton, with such poor attitudes to pax.
However it is not just the staff of the airport who need in some cases looking at... a few are in my opinion unemployable with terrible attitudes, but still have customer facing jobs......but the airlines themselves, who's handling agents and their own staff, including cabin staff based at MAN, have the " you are a holidaymaker" mentality . They seem unable to comprehend that a British Citizen, may not live in the UK and are infact going home to their country of residence.
They have attitudes that I will not put up with, being an expat, do not accept or receive here in Spain and I will be vocal about them, instead of cowtowing to the perceived "norm" that a great majority of UK dwellers do.
Even customer service staff at airlines sidestep written complaints about specific members of cabin staff, aircraft seating, cancelled flights and handling agents. They are not alone in such behaviour in the UK transport industry, as Northern Rail will also not reply to complaints about their staff. It appears to be a British disease these days.
Don't get me wrong. I like using MAN and in particular T3 with Easyjet, who now have all my business, when I fly to and from the UK. I will admit to being a "plus card "holder, but that suits me. There are however certain individuals at MAN, who I would probably count on the fingers of one hand, who go out of their way to be obstructive to passengers. Complaints about them have no effect, they still reappear at the airport, instead of at the Job Center.
Strangely enough, I do not have recollections of airport staff at Gatwick or Luton, with such poor attitudes to pax.
Last edited by IB4138; 1st Aug 2009 at 22:42.
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An interesting discussion about passenger types....
Please remember that we wouldn't be having the discussion at all if it weren't for the leisure pax that used the airport in its growing years -the 70s 80s and 90s. Inclusive Tour pax were the backbone of the airports business - if I remember correctly contributing around 65% of the throughput. Add to this the leisure pax on scheduled services and about 80% of the pax were leisure orientated.
It was they who helped the Airport make a profit, much of which was ploughed back into investment in facilities which in those days did make the airport one to be proud of. Without them, the Airport wouldn't be half the size it is today.
And as has already been said, a wide range of facilities provided means there is something there for everyone.
But it only takes one bad experience to put the punters off and it doesn't matter whether it is the facilities or poor customer relations from any staff - whether they are Airport Company, Handling Agents or whoever is irrelevant. I'm afraid it seems to be the general culture today not to treat customers with respect. How many times have you been served in a shop by someone who is talking to his/her mate on the next till rather than paying attention to you? If only customer facing organisations would realise this, they would start to stand out from the crowd.
Dealing with the public is very difficult, but staff should be properly trained to treat customers with respect and to be able to de-fuse the inevitable conflicts that will arise from time to time. But then training of this type costs money doesn't it?
Perhaps an old fashioned view, but I do feel quite good when something has gone wrong and then has been resolved amicably - service recovery we used to call it. Perhaps some University could run a degree course in it - it would be a damn sight more useful than some of the courses you see advertised nowadays.
Suzeman
Please remember that we wouldn't be having the discussion at all if it weren't for the leisure pax that used the airport in its growing years -the 70s 80s and 90s. Inclusive Tour pax were the backbone of the airports business - if I remember correctly contributing around 65% of the throughput. Add to this the leisure pax on scheduled services and about 80% of the pax were leisure orientated.
It was they who helped the Airport make a profit, much of which was ploughed back into investment in facilities which in those days did make the airport one to be proud of. Without them, the Airport wouldn't be half the size it is today.
And as has already been said, a wide range of facilities provided means there is something there for everyone.
But it only takes one bad experience to put the punters off and it doesn't matter whether it is the facilities or poor customer relations from any staff - whether they are Airport Company, Handling Agents or whoever is irrelevant. I'm afraid it seems to be the general culture today not to treat customers with respect. How many times have you been served in a shop by someone who is talking to his/her mate on the next till rather than paying attention to you? If only customer facing organisations would realise this, they would start to stand out from the crowd.
Dealing with the public is very difficult, but staff should be properly trained to treat customers with respect and to be able to de-fuse the inevitable conflicts that will arise from time to time. But then training of this type costs money doesn't it?
Perhaps an old fashioned view, but I do feel quite good when something has gone wrong and then has been resolved amicably - service recovery we used to call it. Perhaps some University could run a degree course in it - it would be a damn sight more useful than some of the courses you see advertised nowadays.
Suzeman
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IB4138 as a member of MAN based airline crew (Easyjet funnily enough) I can atleast confirm that all of my colleagues are aware of the diverse range of passengers that we carry, even on a TFS but there are certain routes (TFS is one of them) where you know that 90% are travelling on leisure. It's not a hard one to work out and neither is it necassarilly a sweeping statement. MAN is a huge outbound leisure airport, remember the charter heyday..........Those passengers are still there and if anything they travel more frequently. So in essence, MAN probably is more leisure orientated than perhaps other airports. That said, we all know that MAN serves VFR/Expats/Business etc etc and I think it has the right balance. So what if you have to walk through duty/tax free retail space, just keep walking and you will arrive into the departure lounge, nobody is forcing you.
Many do still enjoy the airport experience. My partner always likes to be at the airport early because he is one of those people and he certainly isn't alone. Consequently I think it is rather insulting that some on the forum believe that this is the minority. The truth is, in the era of a stressful airport experience, retail can be very relaxing to some. I can't deny that they can be pricy but people still spend their money there. Furthermore, many love Costa Coffee on the High Street so why not at the airport? If it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't be there and the same goes for other retail concessions.
Finally, back to a comment made by IB4138.............I actually agree with, to an extent, certain company's policies regarding customer complaints. In most cases it's customer's word V's employee and I think it is morally correct to give the employee the benefit of the doubt (unless several complaints are received). Secondly, there are times when staff are complained about because they have been involved in a decision that didn't go the customer's way, hence it's the staff member's fault. Or what about someone who had a bad flight and decides to complain but throws in the claim that staff were rude just to add weight to the case? You only have to read some airline reviews to pick up on such behaviour. From experience, bad apples are usually weeded out from within.
Many do still enjoy the airport experience. My partner always likes to be at the airport early because he is one of those people and he certainly isn't alone. Consequently I think it is rather insulting that some on the forum believe that this is the minority. The truth is, in the era of a stressful airport experience, retail can be very relaxing to some. I can't deny that they can be pricy but people still spend their money there. Furthermore, many love Costa Coffee on the High Street so why not at the airport? If it wasn't profitable, they wouldn't be there and the same goes for other retail concessions.
Finally, back to a comment made by IB4138.............I actually agree with, to an extent, certain company's policies regarding customer complaints. In most cases it's customer's word V's employee and I think it is morally correct to give the employee the benefit of the doubt (unless several complaints are received). Secondly, there are times when staff are complained about because they have been involved in a decision that didn't go the customer's way, hence it's the staff member's fault. Or what about someone who had a bad flight and decides to complain but throws in the claim that staff were rude just to add weight to the case? You only have to read some airline reviews to pick up on such behaviour. From experience, bad apples are usually weeded out from within.
Just to confirm the SQ rumour. Continuing the 3 per week.
Also heard tonight that the third EK will be a 330 not 777.
Also heard tonight that the third EK will be a 330 not 777.
Pilot of the Airwaves
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MancRy
It was the pigeonholing of ALL leisure passengers DO like".........." that I objected to and nothing more. It is a generalisation and mindset of some that needs correction. It is also true that some staff both at the airport and airline cabin crew treat all leisure travellers as UK based holidaymakers. One particular airline and it's crews based at MAN is particularly bad for this. It is a matter that requires attention by management and trainers.
At no point have I said take away the shops and other retail outlets. However, I do not like the present trend of them being so "in your face". Your partner may enjoy the "airport experience" and good for them. I however do not enjoy the UK airport experience, preferring the Spanish layout of terminals and the less intense atmosphere. That is a personal opinion.: each one to their own.
Yes there are times when I will purchase a drink and have my favorite watering holes in airports. Lloyds at Gatwick North and the bar in the center of T3 at MAN for instance. However, to bring up Costa Coffee!! Their outlet landside in T3 at MAN, oposite the bmi desks, was well known for it's coffee, especially by bmi staff and quite a few regular pax, for having what could be referred to as having a moving effect on a persons nether regions, within half an hour of consumption!
As for remembering the charter heyday. My first flight from MAN was on a Balair DC6 to Basle back in the 60s(for Smiths Tours of Wigan), followed by flights on BMI(Derby Airways) Argonauts and One-elevens, plus those of Laker, Comets of BEA Airtours and DanAir. So yes, I remember it well. I was involved in financing and unfortunately repossession of several aircraft for a living. Have things changed for the better over the years? Some have and some have not.
If you are rostered for AGP- MAN on 15th September or MAN-AGP on 20th September, find me and introduce yourself.
It was the pigeonholing of ALL leisure passengers DO like".........." that I objected to and nothing more. It is a generalisation and mindset of some that needs correction. It is also true that some staff both at the airport and airline cabin crew treat all leisure travellers as UK based holidaymakers. One particular airline and it's crews based at MAN is particularly bad for this. It is a matter that requires attention by management and trainers.
At no point have I said take away the shops and other retail outlets. However, I do not like the present trend of them being so "in your face". Your partner may enjoy the "airport experience" and good for them. I however do not enjoy the UK airport experience, preferring the Spanish layout of terminals and the less intense atmosphere. That is a personal opinion.: each one to their own.
Yes there are times when I will purchase a drink and have my favorite watering holes in airports. Lloyds at Gatwick North and the bar in the center of T3 at MAN for instance. However, to bring up Costa Coffee!! Their outlet landside in T3 at MAN, oposite the bmi desks, was well known for it's coffee, especially by bmi staff and quite a few regular pax, for having what could be referred to as having a moving effect on a persons nether regions, within half an hour of consumption!
As for remembering the charter heyday. My first flight from MAN was on a Balair DC6 to Basle back in the 60s(for Smiths Tours of Wigan), followed by flights on BMI(Derby Airways) Argonauts and One-elevens, plus those of Laker, Comets of BEA Airtours and DanAir. So yes, I remember it well. I was involved in financing and unfortunately repossession of several aircraft for a living. Have things changed for the better over the years? Some have and some have not.
If you are rostered for AGP- MAN on 15th September or MAN-AGP on 20th September, find me and introduce yourself.
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treat all leisure travellers as UK based holidaymakers