MANCHESTER - 7

[MrSoft]

Can I just give an umble pax view re this week's weather. Gotta say I was totally impressed with MAN's handling. I just scraped the 10pm Lingus out during Monday night's blizzard - almost felt embarrassed at the amount of graft going on around us just to export a meagre 20 pax or so to Dublin. This having coasted (as usual) through the superb T1 security in no time and had a nice pint in my hand within 5 minutes. Arrived back tonight, and a long taxi in gave a guided tour of T3 and T1 stands - seemed an incredible amount of work had gone in to getting those stands cleared. Dubliners on the bus were agog at the sight of those snow piles. Look around you, this is the worst snow we've all seen for many years? I think the airport did great kudos to anyone having to stand out in that all day.

[42psi]

For what it's worth the fire service staff assisting with snow clearence are not part of the operational fire cover.

Also it's not the first time they have assisted, they have done so in previous years.

Today there were folks mucking in from handling agents and office staff/managers from Olympic House and I even saw one of the taxi co-ordinators helping.

Also in the mix were the contractors who would have been carrying out the taxiway works.


From my point of view I note that the priorities and needs are dynamic in the sense that in the first instance there's a need to try and keep the runway and key intersections (some times only two) open plus the key taxiways and sufficient stands for expected arrivals.

You then throw in trying to allow departing a/c to get out, not easy in heavy snowfall when the heavy equipment can only get so close to an a/c - it's then down to a man (or woman) with a shovel/snow scoop!

Once that's under control it moves onto looking further foward to getting more taxiways/RWY intersections available and further stands.


Given the recent conditions getting more stands open requires shifting large amounts of snow ...... with the only areas available to store it being ........ stands .....


Today was further hampered by being in LVP's in the morning and again this evening.


I'm very glad there was no real wind around today ... it didn't feel quite as cold as it might have done

[Bagso]

"I know BA have been begging all day for MAN to take diversions from LHR/LGW - in other words, 'here's a big bag of cash for you' - only for the airport to refuse on all occasions !!"

......er thank you very much but I think we will concentrate on keeping our own services going !

[The96er]

......er thank you very much but I think we will concentrate on keeping our own services going !

A valid point, however, where as other airports are suffering with similar conditions, they are still open to diverts as well as dispatching their own flights. In the case of BA who are handled by Aviance at MAN, they have canx or curtailed most of their flights which leaves men and equipment sat around doing nothing who could easily handle diverted flights. From my stance, it looks like there's a lot of dithering and twiddling of thumbs from MAN management and not much action !

[Ian Brooks]

Other airports with comparable ammounts of snow are Gatwick which is chaotic
at present. BHX has had far less snow over a much shorter period.

Ian B

[ACCMan]

Originally Posted by The96er

A valid point, however, where as other airports are suffering with similar conditions, they are still open to diverts as well as dispatching their own flights. In the case of BA who are handled by Aviance at MAN, they have canx or curtailed most of their flights which leaves men and equipment sat around doing nothing who could easily handle diverted flights. From my stance, it looks like there's a lot of dithering and twiddling of thumbs from MAN management and not much action !

No dithering at all. A very clear decision ..... NO DIVERTS.

If you'd looked around yesterday morning, you would have seen very few remote stands free; most had parked / delayed aircraft on them.

Why disrupt our own customers, to take someone's else. Lets face it, what loyalty have BA ever shown to MAN?

[al446]

what loyalty have BA ever shown to MAN?

what loyalty have BA ever shown to any regional a/p?

[RoyHudd]

Evidence

Snow Clearer 108, Stand 81/82, 1500L, 06/01/10, lost control of her/his rig at speed, smashed into and damaged airport facilities, due to sheer incompetence. She/he then drove away in a hurry. Concrete evidence of the damage recorded.

Now I do wonder whether the woman/man responsible reported this costly episode? In any event, a well-trained driver would never have been responsible for such incompetence.

[42psi]

Folks.. on the subject of diversions there is more to it than just MAPlc deciding ....

The handling agents are also part of the decision process ... little point in accepting diversions that a handling agent says it can't deal with.

I think that maybe in the very recent past you might possibly find the resident carriers have been objecting if they perceive they are waiting/getting less preferable stands etc. as a result of diversions being accepted.


Anyway ... with the weekend forecast it looks like it may be "here we go again"





Anyone got room in their back garden for about a town sized heap of snow?

Make a corking five storey snowman

[MAN777]

SNOW

Before I start this message can i say it is not aimed at hard working individuals that have bust a gut over the last week, it is directed at the upper management.

Just had a look at the stands, the majority are now cleared and operational. pier A has 1 blocked, pier B has one on the end blocked, pier C has 3-4 on the end blocked. Remote west apron stands at a guess I would say 6 are not in use due to equipment and snow mountain storage !.

Dont know about taxiways but it looks like Alpha in front of the fire station has not been touched.

Snow clearance wise there isnt much going on, there are some contractors using a JCB to clear the snow piles on pier C and the huge snow fleet is parked up outside airfield ops, not one of the vehicles is doing anything !!!

Terminal 1 & 3 most stands have aircraft on them. Terminal 2, 4 aircraft and the west apron 3 aircraft.

Hardly the busiest scene in the world.

Questions -

Why is the airport still not receiving diversions ? (Manchester lost much needed revenue this morning when Dublin was closed, their aircraft went all over the place)

Why is none of the snow fleet out clearing the remaining blocked stands and taxiways ?

Does the airport management care that the airports image is being tarnished by its inability to cope. ?

I know there are issues with lack of handling agents to deal with extras, but why ? It never used to happen, diversions used to turn up in the dozens but we always managed and dealt with them, so what has gone wrong with this once great airport that tackled anything that was thrown at it ?

MAG - Get a grip and stop hiding

I will put my tin hat on now

[Ian Brooks]

There are some reasonable questions there which I`m sure some ops people can answer and probably some sensible reasons why we are not taking diversions.
I have one question why is it so few exits from runway have been cleared which slows the arrival rate so much?


Ian B

[MAN777]

Further to my last post I have just looked at the TAF for the south east airports, there is a very high chance that there is going to be disruption again overnight with more snow and strong winds blowing the lying snow back onto the runways etc.

Has anybody at MAN clocked this yet ? does anybody at MAN want to try and earn some extra revenue in these hard times ?

Here is a tip from the old days : prepare just in case, shift dead aircraft off clear stands, Start to communicate and speak to all companies and agents telling them what is likely to happen.

And get rid of that NO Diversions NOTAM, its damaging business. Show airlines that MAN can cope and when the economy hopefully picks, they will look at MAN as "the airport that could", not the airport that couldnt.

[Trash_Hauler]

Well... perhaps one of the reasons that the airport cant cope is due to lack of staff. Redundancies have been happening all autumn and winter and now the airport (and associated handling agents, fuellers, caterers cleaners etc) is run by skeleton staff. Throw in the more than average snowfall, and if even a few people cant (or wont) get in, and therein lies a major problem.

[42psi]

I'll try and give you some info - but please note this is my take on the situation - not an "authorative quote" (nor am I claiming any decisions are right/wrong!).

I'm also not aware (as of this time) of any changes which may have taken place overnight.


Twy Alpha is open and has been for many, many days now.

Nothing at all wrong with it outside the fire station at all


Some of the taxiways & runway links are not cleared. My understanding is that's a decision taken on a reasoned basis.

I'm sure the effect on traffic flow and expected traffic has been part of that decision process.

Right now we are having exceptional WX in comparison to previous years - don't we usually get the worst around mid Feb or so?.

When it starts to snow again if it's anything like the last snowfalls we can expect to find it difficult to keep it all clear.

I guess there's a better chance of that if you've not given yourself too much area to try and keep clear.

The current snow heaps are being moved ready for the expected snow and to give some space to store the new snow heaps

So factor in a reasonable expectation that we possibly face annother 8 weeks+ of possible ice/snow I would think someone is looking at how secure the future supplies of de-ice materials are (are the suppliers able to deliver and have sufficient stocks available??) and also trying to be prudent with what is to hand or available.

If there has been no further snowfall and the existing cleared areas are staying clear (if that's the plan) then I guess there's actually not much else for the snow fleet to do today? With periodic applications of anti-ice based on temperature forecast that's about all that can be done I guess....



As for the diverts - I did give a hint of that before

There actually was a divert accepted yesterday, it sat for a very long time with only a company engineer present and without steps or the toilet service the captain was pleading for.

As for getting acts together and tarnished images, I'd guess that MAN would love to clean up and get extra revenue by accepting whatever diverts it can find space for.

But .... little point getting them in and on the ground if that's all that happens OR in getting beat up by it's resident carriers claiming they're suffering through the airports' desire to get more revenue....

Accepting diverts requires ensuring that all services agree

[Playamar2]

Snow

MAN777 - Two excellent posts

Trash Hauler - I understand what you are saying regading lack of staff, however all other airports in the UK with the possible exception of Heathrow are in the same situation. It has also been four days since the more that average snowfall which is what makes MAN777 posts so relevant. The airport can't use the excuse of just waiting for the excessive snow to melt, or customers (ie airlines) will see that MAPlc management is incompetent.

[42psi]

Trash Hauler ...spot on

From my point of view I've seen sufficient numbers of snow clearence staff and equipment/supplies available - tight at times but OK.

What I've also seen are aircraft waiting for longer than I'd be happy with once they've arrived.

Handling agents are under great pressures these days, as are airlines - it's almost a lose-lose situation.


On a lighter note has anyone noticed if the ground equipment is still on the snow covered grass between 235/237??

I'm not saying this is what happened but ........ once upon a time an EBT saw some very smooth and clear snow covered ground ... looked just like a road.

Sadly he couldn't recall exactly where the road use to be before the snow fell, but it looked so smooth and inviting. Although he should really I guess have remembered that there never had been a road there .. ever!

So off he went across the nice smooth surface .. only to find about halfway though ...... oh... errr.. missus .... yikes .... he became firmly stuck on the snow covered grass with chilly wet snow up above his axles.

His friend the pushback tug saw his predicament and rushed to his aid .... only also get even more firmly stuck .... and sinking .......

Eventually one of those big green snow clearing tractors came along and pulled the EBT clear .... sadly there was little he could do for his friend the push back tug - oh well, maybe he'll get dug out in the spring.

All tales have an ending .. as does this one ..... no-one knows why annother EBT tried the same stunt after seeing his friends come a cropper.

So now you might on a dark and windy night see the pushback tug and the second EBT sitting looking at the stars.

[Mr A Tis]

I think its pretty evident from looking around that MAG, the handlers, the refuelers, everybody has cut staffing to the bone for this winter. Ive even heard rumours that consideration has been given that T3 could even be moth balled . (Ive no idea if this is true or not), but its clear staffing is based on a dramatic decrease in traffic & normal operations. The weather throws a spanner in the works, so there is no resource to handle diversions. 30 years ago BA had an army of staff here, who could handle as many BA 747s that LHR could throw at them. Times change.
The staff they do have here, have been doing a terrific job with the resources they've got

[The96er]

Ive even heard rumours that consideration has been given that T3 could even be moth balled .

Errrr no, it's not quite that bad - yet !!

BA had an army of staff here, who could handle as many BA 747s that LHR could throw at them.

BA now handled by Aviance, but still, over the last few days and for a few more days likely - BA have canx virtually all their domestic flying, which leaves quite a few Aviance staff - although not as much as the old BA days, available to handle diverts.

[Ian Brooks]

There is a point where cutting back and cutting back is going to kick you in the short and curlies, like now. A couple of friends of mine work for the handling agencies and
are seriously thinking of leaving due to the pressure they are put under.
I know that the airlines are putting a lot of pressure on the handling agencies to cut costs and of course the first thing that gives is staffing levels, struggle along whilst all is ok( no bad weather or big delays ) then all hell lets loose when the **** hits the fan.
In a way the airlines are their own worst enemy especially the like of Ryanair
which expect everything for nothing.


Ian B

[Mr A Tis]

In a way the airlines are their own worst enemy especially the like of Ryanair
which expect everything for nothing

Exactly, you get what you pay for. Everybody wants top service & lowest cost.
The airlines complain that passengers have this attitude, whilst at the same time, they do the same............It's how the UK works these days :-(