Aer Lingus - 5
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Clarify
Dublinaviator misses the point entirely, whether by accident or design I will leave for others to decide.
My point was in relation to those deluded people in Chicago who peddle this rubbish about Obama is that they listen to no one, only people who agree with their misguided and completely wrong agenda.
I was not comparing people who disagree with me with the above, only it appears to be as difficult for some posters here to change their minds about the
way they view everything about EI in an extremely negative way, as it is to change those ideas in Chicago.
I can assure you I come from a very ordinary background and I have been accused of many things, but snobbery was never one of them
My point was in relation to those deluded people in Chicago who peddle this rubbish about Obama is that they listen to no one, only people who agree with their misguided and completely wrong agenda.
I was not comparing people who disagree with me with the above, only it appears to be as difficult for some posters here to change their minds about the
way they view everything about EI in an extremely negative way, as it is to change those ideas in Chicago.
I can assure you I come from a very ordinary background and I have been accused of many things, but snobbery was never one of them
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"Its one thing to ballot for industrial action, its another to actually take industrial action, and as yet pilots have not done so, most likely because they know the massive public backlash they would get."
And they will have some cheek if they do decide to take strike action, i have seen them more mornings strolling out to aircraft and getting on while the passengers are boarding, its a disgrace, they should be onboard the aircraft well before any passengers arrive (like all other airlines). It really looks terrible from an outsiders point of view when you see pilots barging past passengers on the steps to get onboard and im surprised that its allowed from a safety point.
And they will have some cheek if they do decide to take strike action, i have seen them more mornings strolling out to aircraft and getting on while the passengers are boarding, its a disgrace, they should be onboard the aircraft well before any passengers arrive (like all other airlines). It really looks terrible from an outsiders point of view when you see pilots barging past passengers on the steps to get onboard and im surprised that its allowed from a safety point.
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Indeed, the personal arguements are distracting from the facts.
EI have spent the last year altering their business model to stem losses and increase yields. So far this has been very successful. To go from losses of E90M+ to a predicted E29M profit for 2010 during the worse recession to ever hit its major market is pretty damn amazing.
A contributing factor to this was the Greenfield restructuring plan which entailed cost savings from ALL Aer Lingus STAFF. In March of this year all groups had signed up to it and all that was left was for EI to implement the changes. Each group had targeted savings and each group negotiated with EI Mgmt to deliver this figure.
The situation we have now with the cabin crew is that they voted Yes to the February agreement but in late June the company announced that further changes would be implemented. (Please note that this was with less than 14 days notice)
New rosters came into effect in July that in some cases increased the workload of crew by up to 50%. (The Greenfield deal called for in the order of 10-15% productivity increases.) In addition the company told the crew that the existing working conditions were to be thrown out and replaced by an as yet unwritten new set. The crew were obviously unhappy with this and tried to resolve it. After all the deal in February once implemented was designed to deliver the required costs savings/productivity increases.
This is where the LRC came into the picture. Please note that the crew continued to work these disputed rosters to show co-operation and willingness to 'keep the show on the road'. So on August 24th the LRC issued their ruling. This changed a number of items among the cc working rules (duty seperation, days off after T/A flights, need to improve rostering system) but it endorsed the existing working rules albeit with changes as detailed in the February 2010 Greenfield plan AND the LRC ruling.
The problems lies in the interpretation of this ruling. (I question how an arbitration ruling can be so vague as to allow multiple interpretions,buts that another arguement)
EI and the union (IMPACT) held discussion 2-3 weeks ago. The talks apparently produced a deal which BOTH sides were happy with. However EI senior Mgmt were not happy with this and subsequently nixed the deal. Thus we have the cc decision to work to rule. Please note that the cc are still working the 'new rosters' so there has been very little disruption so far to passengers.
Now whatever your personal view of EI and/or their cabin crew can we look at this in a neutral light. An Irish company makes an agreement with its staff that entail major changes/cuts. The company doesn't fulfill its side of the bargain before forcing additional changes/cuts on 1/3 of its staff whilst refusing discuss/negotiate with these staff.
A poster on another site provided some example of the disparity between the differing interpretations:
-EI are actually trying to change the existing book of rules which the LRC gave them no clearance for. They were told to "rewrite the rules for mutual clarity". The LRC emphatically insisted that this shall not be a new negotiation. Now call me silly but that to me seems to say 'don't change anything, just word it simpler.'
-LRC didn't pass any ruling changing the duty time limits of crew yet EI are continuing to roster crew longer shifts than allowed under their existing contract and work rules.
-The crew have been fully compliant with the Greenfield plan. The company has so far NOT introduced some of the changes in the plan which were to ensure fully productive and equitable rostering. It is the company who write the roster so they should be implementing any changes mutually agreed in March 2010 BEFORE imposing further changes.
-In addition I am being told that currently EI are badly managing their rosters so are not making full use of their crew resources. As a company I would want to be getting 5 shifts a week from my staff. It seems the range of productivity varies greatly between the cabin crew group. EI claim the current rules restrict productivity, if so how can a large group of EI crew be close to 900 per year?
-Apparently EI are claiming that certain work options will no longer be availible as the LRC ruling didn't specifically refer to them in the document. Now I would assume not referring to them means 'no changes' but maybe I'm wrong....
EI have spent the last year altering their business model to stem losses and increase yields. So far this has been very successful. To go from losses of E90M+ to a predicted E29M profit for 2010 during the worse recession to ever hit its major market is pretty damn amazing.
A contributing factor to this was the Greenfield restructuring plan which entailed cost savings from ALL Aer Lingus STAFF. In March of this year all groups had signed up to it and all that was left was for EI to implement the changes. Each group had targeted savings and each group negotiated with EI Mgmt to deliver this figure.
The situation we have now with the cabin crew is that they voted Yes to the February agreement but in late June the company announced that further changes would be implemented. (Please note that this was with less than 14 days notice)
New rosters came into effect in July that in some cases increased the workload of crew by up to 50%. (The Greenfield deal called for in the order of 10-15% productivity increases.) In addition the company told the crew that the existing working conditions were to be thrown out and replaced by an as yet unwritten new set. The crew were obviously unhappy with this and tried to resolve it. After all the deal in February once implemented was designed to deliver the required costs savings/productivity increases.
This is where the LRC came into the picture. Please note that the crew continued to work these disputed rosters to show co-operation and willingness to 'keep the show on the road'. So on August 24th the LRC issued their ruling. This changed a number of items among the cc working rules (duty seperation, days off after T/A flights, need to improve rostering system) but it endorsed the existing working rules albeit with changes as detailed in the February 2010 Greenfield plan AND the LRC ruling.
The problems lies in the interpretation of this ruling. (I question how an arbitration ruling can be so vague as to allow multiple interpretions,buts that another arguement)
EI and the union (IMPACT) held discussion 2-3 weeks ago. The talks apparently produced a deal which BOTH sides were happy with. However EI senior Mgmt were not happy with this and subsequently nixed the deal. Thus we have the cc decision to work to rule. Please note that the cc are still working the 'new rosters' so there has been very little disruption so far to passengers.
Now whatever your personal view of EI and/or their cabin crew can we look at this in a neutral light. An Irish company makes an agreement with its staff that entail major changes/cuts. The company doesn't fulfill its side of the bargain before forcing additional changes/cuts on 1/3 of its staff whilst refusing discuss/negotiate with these staff.
A poster on another site provided some example of the disparity between the differing interpretations:
-EI are actually trying to change the existing book of rules which the LRC gave them no clearance for. They were told to "rewrite the rules for mutual clarity". The LRC emphatically insisted that this shall not be a new negotiation. Now call me silly but that to me seems to say 'don't change anything, just word it simpler.'
-LRC didn't pass any ruling changing the duty time limits of crew yet EI are continuing to roster crew longer shifts than allowed under their existing contract and work rules.
-The crew have been fully compliant with the Greenfield plan. The company has so far NOT introduced some of the changes in the plan which were to ensure fully productive and equitable rostering. It is the company who write the roster so they should be implementing any changes mutually agreed in March 2010 BEFORE imposing further changes.
-In addition I am being told that currently EI are badly managing their rosters so are not making full use of their crew resources. As a company I would want to be getting 5 shifts a week from my staff. It seems the range of productivity varies greatly between the cabin crew group. EI claim the current rules restrict productivity, if so how can a large group of EI crew be close to 900 per year?
-Apparently EI are claiming that certain work options will no longer be availible as the LRC ruling didn't specifically refer to them in the document. Now I would assume not referring to them means 'no changes' but maybe I'm wrong....
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The problems lies in the interpretation of this ruling. (I question how an arbitration ruling can be so vague as to allow multiple interpretions,buts that another arguement)
It sets out clearly the new conditions that crew have had to work to and the differing interpretations on both sides.
I have two main questions in relation to the LRC:
- Why did they take so long initially to issue their recommendation?
- Why are they not publicly clarifying the nature and exact intention of the ruling/components to the ruling?
As long as this issue continues to drift, so the rift between both sides involved will continue to widen. Third party intervention is the only realistic hope of providing a speedy resolution at this point - but from who? The LRC don't seem to be helpful so far.
The problem is, this issue also shows deeper issues within EI - ie. the non independence of the HR function and it's ability to make decisions. That situation is a recipe for a problem within any company.
If EI Management continue to interpret the ruling to the ''letter of the law'' then there is never going to be a positive outcome, for any party involved.
Regards,
EI Premier
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VillWill,
I must take issue with your comments. The report time for uk/continental flight duties is departure time -45minutes. This is in line with EUOPS. In this time we check flight plans, assess weather, check defects, calculate performance data, order fuel, then make our way to the aircraft, often a 5 minute bus ride from ops. On arrival at the aircraft we prepare it for departure. This includes a walkaround outside, inspecting the flightdeck, programming the MCDU, getting atc clearance, completing breifings, finalising performance figures. All in 45 minutes.
In 15+ years flying, I have never seen a flight delay caused by flight crew "strolling onto the aircraft" as passengers are boarding. The A320/1 takes 25-30 mins to board, so we would have to report earlier, thus restricting our duty day.
May I respectfully suggest, if you object to a pilot passing you on the steps, you contact Mr C Mueller with your concerns.
Regards
JJ
I must take issue with your comments. The report time for uk/continental flight duties is departure time -45minutes. This is in line with EUOPS. In this time we check flight plans, assess weather, check defects, calculate performance data, order fuel, then make our way to the aircraft, often a 5 minute bus ride from ops. On arrival at the aircraft we prepare it for departure. This includes a walkaround outside, inspecting the flightdeck, programming the MCDU, getting atc clearance, completing breifings, finalising performance figures. All in 45 minutes.
In 15+ years flying, I have never seen a flight delay caused by flight crew "strolling onto the aircraft" as passengers are boarding. The A320/1 takes 25-30 mins to board, so we would have to report earlier, thus restricting our duty day.
May I respectfully suggest, if you object to a pilot passing you on the steps, you contact Mr C Mueller with your concerns.
Regards
JJ
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MME-DUB
Any idea if the EI regional will return next Summer season? Load factors haven't been wonderful but very little advertising. Would be good to have a positive news story for us at MME!
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Thank you DollarBill for at least trying to give the 1st detailed explanation of the Cabin Crew dispute that I have read. I wouldn't agree entirely with some of your interpretation but I genuinely appreciate your effort in explaining it.
Now is it possible for someone to explain the pilots striking for rosters that they themselves didn't want 9 months ago? That sort of lunacy gives fuel to the VillWill begrudger types.
Now is it possible for someone to explain the pilots striking for rosters that they themselves didn't want 9 months ago? That sort of lunacy gives fuel to the VillWill begrudger types.
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Absolute Drivel
VILL WILL, from your moronic post i gather you have zero concept of what is involved in the pre flight preparation of a flight followed by getting from an operations room to an aircraft most likely the other side of the airport all in 45 minutes.When you do have the necessary knowledge please feel free to post again...
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No I am completely with vill will here. I find it unacceptable to have to share the steps with pax. Instead I propose that we check in at least three hours prior to a flight. After completing our preflight planning and receiving a full weather briefing from a trained met officer in our state of the art flight ops room we will be whisked away to a hangar where we will be briefed on the a/c status by the head of engineering. After conducting a full walk around we will then board the aircraft. It will be pushed back where a series of engine runs will be performed to ensure that the absolute safety of the days operations is met. The engines will then be shut down and we will supervise the towing of the aircraft onto stand where it will be met by hordes of ground personnel to oversee boarding. Of course another pre departure walk around will be required to ensure that no damage could have occurred during the boarding process. After all of this we can of course depart safe in the knowledge that all is well.
Only gotcha is that pod old Vill will be paying slightly more for his tickets to cover the additional costs. But i am sure you don't mind old chap do ya?
Only gotcha is that pod old Vill will be paying slightly more for his tickets to cover the additional costs. But i am sure you don't mind old chap do ya?
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isayoldchap - As a multi-licenced line maintenance engineer i have a good idea as to what a pre-flight routine concerns, i was merely stating that it looks bad from a customer point of view and as i have not seen it happening at other airlines (even Ryanair) i wondered why it happened at Aer Lingus.
jonjoe - im not saying that flight crew are causing delays by boarding with the passengers, im just saying that it looks bad.
MCDU2 - believe me i have done more pre-flight, transit and daily checks to know what goes in to getting an aircraft ready for departure but your sarcasm is endearing. How does it work at outstations, say at Heathrow? Do you still find yourselves boarding with the passengers or have you more time? I'd be genuinely interested to know.
jonjoe - im not saying that flight crew are causing delays by boarding with the passengers, im just saying that it looks bad.
MCDU2 - believe me i have done more pre-flight, transit and daily checks to know what goes in to getting an aircraft ready for departure but your sarcasm is endearing. How does it work at outstations, say at Heathrow? Do you still find yourselves boarding with the passengers or have you more time? I'd be genuinely interested to know.
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"Thank you DollarBill for at least trying ............. I wouldn't agree entirely with some of your interpretation but I genuinely appreciate your effort in explaining it"
If you have an queries on what I posted or other points I can try to answer them to the best of my abilities...........
I do acknowledge a bias on my part but I do try to be as open as I can.
VillWill: Has it occured to you that the EI pilots 'strooling on' could be coming from another aircraft? EI does not do the logical thing of rostering pilots, cabin crew and aircraft together when doing 3-4 sector days.
In addition what safety rules are being broken by boarding without pilots?
If you have an queries on what I posted or other points I can try to answer them to the best of my abilities...........
I do acknowledge a bias on my part but I do try to be as open as I can.
VillWill: Has it occured to you that the EI pilots 'strooling on' could be coming from another aircraft? EI does not do the logical thing of rostering pilots, cabin crew and aircraft together when doing 3-4 sector days.
In addition what safety rules are being broken by boarding without pilots?
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VillWill
In Ryanair, and perhaps most airlines, the pilots and cabin crew conduct a joint briefing after their own specific ones before travelling to the aircraft together. Apart from the obvious CRM benefits of this approach, most airlines don't allow the cabin crew the authority to have pax on board without the captain.
Aer Lingus pilots and cc brief separately and travel to the aircraft separately, with no joint briefing taking place. In the captain and F/O's absence, the senior cabin crew member has the authority to evacuate the aircraft if necessary.
I don't know how Ryanair pilots manage to also have STD-45 check-in times, prepare the flight thoroughly, manage to be at the aircraft pre-boarding and still depart on time. Perhaps their pre-flight briefing procedures are more streamlined than at Aer Lingus, or they have better ops support.
What I do know is that the chaotic nature of vast amounts of paperwork and the poor IT facilities, added to the inconvenient location of the briefing room means it simply isn't possible to report at STD-45, prepare the flight and be at the aircraft prior to boarding. To hold the boarding til that time would involve late departures.
As an engineer, villwill, you should be aware that the on-board prep. for an Airbus is, in most instances, easily accomplished within the 20 minutes stipulated by our SOPs. To say it's a safety issue is rubbish.
What I am curious to know is why exactly you think it looks bad?
In Ryanair, and perhaps most airlines, the pilots and cabin crew conduct a joint briefing after their own specific ones before travelling to the aircraft together. Apart from the obvious CRM benefits of this approach, most airlines don't allow the cabin crew the authority to have pax on board without the captain.
Aer Lingus pilots and cc brief separately and travel to the aircraft separately, with no joint briefing taking place. In the captain and F/O's absence, the senior cabin crew member has the authority to evacuate the aircraft if necessary.
I don't know how Ryanair pilots manage to also have STD-45 check-in times, prepare the flight thoroughly, manage to be at the aircraft pre-boarding and still depart on time. Perhaps their pre-flight briefing procedures are more streamlined than at Aer Lingus, or they have better ops support.
What I do know is that the chaotic nature of vast amounts of paperwork and the poor IT facilities, added to the inconvenient location of the briefing room means it simply isn't possible to report at STD-45, prepare the flight and be at the aircraft prior to boarding. To hold the boarding til that time would involve late departures.
As an engineer, villwill, you should be aware that the on-board prep. for an Airbus is, in most instances, easily accomplished within the 20 minutes stipulated by our SOPs. To say it's a safety issue is rubbish.
What I am curious to know is why exactly you think it looks bad?
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Interesting comments by MOL
Ryanair's chief executive has told a German newspaper that he hopes the Irish Government's financial woes will help the airline finally seal a takeover of Aer Lingus.
Ryanair, which owns almost 30% of Aer Lingus, has tried twice to take over its rival but has struggled to overcome opposition from the Government which holds a quarter of Aer Lingus.
'The Government is broke now, it has to sell its holdings. In the end, it will sell Aer Lingus as well,' Michael O'Leary said in an interview published in daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung today.
'And I hope, we will buy Aer Lingus,' Mr O'Leary said, adding he would aim to expand Aer Lingus as quickly as possible following any deal.
'We could, for instance, get access to Charles de Gaulle (airport in Paris) and compete with EasyJet,' he said.
A takeover of Aer Lingus could also increase the likelihood that Ryanair may start buying Airbus planes.
'We have no credibility in negotiations with Airbus. They do not believe us that we really want to buy their planes. I think that will only change if we own an Airbus carrier such as Aer Lingus,' Mr O'Leary said.
Ryanair, which owns almost 30% of Aer Lingus, has tried twice to take over its rival but has struggled to overcome opposition from the Government which holds a quarter of Aer Lingus.
'The Government is broke now, it has to sell its holdings. In the end, it will sell Aer Lingus as well,' Michael O'Leary said in an interview published in daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung today.
'And I hope, we will buy Aer Lingus,' Mr O'Leary said, adding he would aim to expand Aer Lingus as quickly as possible following any deal.
'We could, for instance, get access to Charles de Gaulle (airport in Paris) and compete with EasyJet,' he said.
A takeover of Aer Lingus could also increase the likelihood that Ryanair may start buying Airbus planes.
'We have no credibility in negotiations with Airbus. They do not believe us that we really want to buy their planes. I think that will only change if we own an Airbus carrier such as Aer Lingus,' Mr O'Leary said.
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It makes no difference what MOL says.
The EU will rightly not allow it as there will be no competition out of DUB.
MOL has few if any Friends in Europe and the Government here will not be interested in handing him anything, after his outrageous conduct over hangar 6.
EI is making money and has no need for investment now.If they had to sell it would be to anyone but him
With only FR flying out of DUB to quote a famous uk Judge it "Would be an appalling vista"
The EU will rightly not allow it as there will be no competition out of DUB.
MOL has few if any Friends in Europe and the Government here will not be interested in handing him anything, after his outrageous conduct over hangar 6.
EI is making money and has no need for investment now.If they had to sell it would be to anyone but him
With only FR flying out of DUB to quote a famous uk Judge it "Would be an appalling vista"
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As EI-AAA says, what o'dreary says is irrelevant. As long as the EU keeps saying no and they will as the competition position has not changed. If anything, the AL/FR duopoly is stronger now than it was 2 years ago. Anyway, AL are holding services steady, while ryanair are agrressively reducing capacity ex-ROI. Which hardly makes ruinair a likely candidate to expand AL.
As ever, the mullingar farmer wants to be talked about, which will happen for a few minutes with this latest pronouncement, until the public get bored (which happens a lot quicker nowadays) and he has to think of the next bull$hit attention getting statement.
As ever, the mullingar farmer wants to be talked about, which will happen for a few minutes with this latest pronouncement, until the public get bored (which happens a lot quicker nowadays) and he has to think of the next bull$hit attention getting statement.
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The funniest comment from the interview, however, was that contrary to earlier promises he plans to stay on for a couple more years because he now has three little children at home who are a handful - so, he says, it's better to be at the office running Ryanair 
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I seriously hope the little tites aren't a chip off the old block for their sakes.
Villwill - So you didn't like the idea of paying more for your ticket in order to enhance safety then huh? Well since you asked so nicely.....Report time at any Irish station is still the 45 minutes pre STD. If we are overnighting in LHR and operating out the next day then the pick up is approx. 2 hours before departure. Generally this is fine but it all depends on traffic and the dreaded UK security with their an*l rules and regulations that are only fully understood by themselves!
Villwill - So you didn't like the idea of paying more for your ticket in order to enhance safety then huh? Well since you asked so nicely.....Report time at any Irish station is still the 45 minutes pre STD. If we are overnighting in LHR and operating out the next day then the pick up is approx. 2 hours before departure. Generally this is fine but it all depends on traffic and the dreaded UK security with their an*l rules and regulations that are only fully understood by themselves!
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MCDU2 - i never had any problem with the safety of the EI fleet (in regard to your over zealous pre-flight routine), i was questioning whether it was ok to board passengers without the flight crew being onboard as i thought it might be a EU/EASA directive but alas i was wrong as Alt Crz Green was kind enough to inform me, the senior cabin member has the authority to evacuate the aircraft. But thanks for the info on outstation report times and such.
Alt Crz Green - thanks for the insight into the pre-flight rumblings of EI flight crew, it would be reasonable to expect that FR would have a much more streamlined policy when it comes to CC and flight crew briefings. As for the looking bad part, i just thought it looked slightly unprofessional although i see now that it may not always be down to the flight crew and is more often just EI's awkwardness that causes it. Having worked around the airport for many years and seeing this nearly every morning especially around the non-airbridge stands (eg 36R & 36L) i just thought it looked, from a passenger point of view, as if the pilots were late getting to the aircraft.
Dollarbill - i have really only seen this during early morning departures and so the flight crew would be on the first duty of the day and not coming from another aircraft.
Alt Crz Green - thanks for the insight into the pre-flight rumblings of EI flight crew, it would be reasonable to expect that FR would have a much more streamlined policy when it comes to CC and flight crew briefings. As for the looking bad part, i just thought it looked slightly unprofessional although i see now that it may not always be down to the flight crew and is more often just EI's awkwardness that causes it. Having worked around the airport for many years and seeing this nearly every morning especially around the non-airbridge stands (eg 36R & 36L) i just thought it looked, from a passenger point of view, as if the pilots were late getting to the aircraft.
Dollarbill - i have really only seen this during early morning departures and so the flight crew would be on the first duty of the day and not coming from another aircraft.
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i have really only seen this during early morning departures and so the flight crew would be on the first duty of the day and not coming from another aircraft. says VillVill.
The inference here is that the pilots are lazy and are above their remit to being on time. Disgraceful comments. My sources in the green machines inform me they board the early flights sometimes 30mins pre STD. It would be normal for pilots to board the aircraft at the same time if it is being boarded early.
Zip it VillVill or should I say VillVill the troll.
The inference here is that the pilots are lazy and are above their remit to being on time. Disgraceful comments. My sources in the green machines inform me they board the early flights sometimes 30mins pre STD. It would be normal for pilots to board the aircraft at the same time if it is being boarded early.
Zip it VillVill or should I say VillVill the troll.