Alitalia (Merged)
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So.....
Can anyone explain for us the difference between SB and his gangsters pouring Italian taxpayers' money into AZ ( illegal under EU law, apparently ) and the UK government pouring UK taxpayers' money into some of their banks ( to be encouraged, apparently )
Or is it just me who doesn't see the difference ?
As I said on Page 1 or was it page 2....IF the Italian taxpayers don't mind, and it's a BIG IF, what the buggery bollox has it got to do with Brussels ?
And will these same supposed guardians of free-trade raise objections to the UK actions ?
I'd bet my mortgage that they don't......
SB and his cronies probably can't believe their luck !!
Can anyone explain for us the difference between SB and his gangsters pouring Italian taxpayers' money into AZ ( illegal under EU law, apparently ) and the UK government pouring UK taxpayers' money into some of their banks ( to be encouraged, apparently )
Or is it just me who doesn't see the difference ?
As I said on Page 1 or was it page 2....IF the Italian taxpayers don't mind, and it's a BIG IF, what the buggery bollox has it got to do with Brussels ?
And will these same supposed guardians of free-trade raise objections to the UK actions ?
I'd bet my mortgage that they don't......
SB and his cronies probably can't believe their luck !!
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Wow, it is amazing that you ask this question. Where to begin? Letting the banks go under would have repercussion so severe (as if things aren’t bad enough), that our “modern” economies will grind to a halt. Comparisons to the prolonged depression of the late 20’s to the mid 30’s of the last century are not out of place. If banks stop the money from flowing, the trickle down will be very swift indeed. It would take way too much paper to explain it, if you don’t understand this. Please read some newspapers, and they will explain it for you.
If the governments don't step in to hold up the financial system you wouldn't have to worry about betting your mortgage.
Any rescue of Alitalia in the current climate has zero chance of succeeding. All it will mean is that they will be back in short order for more help (on top of the number of last chances they have already had). In isolation this is not a big deal. But the whole industry is struggling to find a way of surviving (how perfect does this storm need to be?). Leaving Alitalia in place will just mean the left over pie has to be divided over more mouths. And in the end it will weaken the left over players.
Among them many airlines that have done the tough things to be able to position themselves to be a survivor. Letting Alitalia shut down is a tragedy for the people concerned, and they do have my sympathies. On an individual basis you can’t blame them. But drawing comparison between saving whole economies (and millions of jobs, and trying to prevent a depression) with another injection of capital for a inefficient company shows a great lack of understanding. Letting Alitalia shut down would hardly register as a blip in our industry as a whole.
I am sorry if I have offended any Italians, that is not my intention. But this farce around Alitalia is harmful to our industry, it is not strictly an Italian issue, far from it, and people are paying attention. If other airlines are allowed to shut down because their business model failed, or their timing was bad, my question would be: What makes Alitalia so special, that it can operate under different laws than those other airlines?
If the governments don't step in to hold up the financial system you wouldn't have to worry about betting your mortgage.
Any rescue of Alitalia in the current climate has zero chance of succeeding. All it will mean is that they will be back in short order for more help (on top of the number of last chances they have already had). In isolation this is not a big deal. But the whole industry is struggling to find a way of surviving (how perfect does this storm need to be?). Leaving Alitalia in place will just mean the left over pie has to be divided over more mouths. And in the end it will weaken the left over players.
Among them many airlines that have done the tough things to be able to position themselves to be a survivor. Letting Alitalia shut down is a tragedy for the people concerned, and they do have my sympathies. On an individual basis you can’t blame them. But drawing comparison between saving whole economies (and millions of jobs, and trying to prevent a depression) with another injection of capital for a inefficient company shows a great lack of understanding. Letting Alitalia shut down would hardly register as a blip in our industry as a whole.
I am sorry if I have offended any Italians, that is not my intention. But this farce around Alitalia is harmful to our industry, it is not strictly an Italian issue, far from it, and people are paying attention. If other airlines are allowed to shut down because their business model failed, or their timing was bad, my question would be: What makes Alitalia so special, that it can operate under different laws than those other airlines?
Last edited by Otterman; 14th Oct 2008 at 06:22.
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Otterman
Of course I understand the potential consequences of banks' failures....And as a businessman depending on having some loans renewed early next year if I want to stay in business, I just hope everything is going to calm down and we'll soon have business back to normal....If it doesn't, both my business and 24 peoples' jobs will go down the tubes through no fault of our own....
What I'm trying to point out is that the EU just seem to be so selective - a law is a law, no ? Just because the subject / aggressor / victim / whatever is considered to be a good / bad / indifferent / whatever citizen or corporate entity, you can't just say ' Let's ignore the law because we want to help / punish the alleged subject / aggressor / victim / whatever ' Imagine....
' Of course he's been found innocent by the jury, but everyone knows he did it so he's going to jail anyway '
Think OJ Simpson ten years ago - could the judge really have said and done this ? Of course not.....
So whatever your thoughts about whether AZ should or even deserves to survive is entirely your own opinion but opinion isn't the basis of law. I have my opinion and obviously you have yours as you have stated. But my understanding is that, legally, any company in an EU member state should not receive state aid to the extent that it would result in an unfair advantage against its competitors. That is, I believe, the law
But why are so many companies and organisations seemingly free to ignore this law without attracting the same sort of vitriol as shown here against AZ ?
Top of my ' I wonder why ' list are -
- Deutsche Bahn in Germany, state owned monopoly, use State funds to subsidise acquisitions and trading losses in subsidiaries throughout Europe...
- EDF in France, state owned, who use state funds to acquire other power companies around the world whilst failing to sort out their own problems with unions, new power stations under construction in France which are plagued with technical problems and years behind schedule, and the ongoing industrial relations problems from the proposed privatisation and the effect on its employees' T&C's...
- SNCF in France, state owned, state funded, who as well as buying more and more market share in the Logistics industry in Europe, also own numerous bus and coach companies which rarely fail to win public tenders to provide bus services to towns and cities throughout France at the expense of privately owned operators....
And the list could go on and on and on.....Seems the EU regularly turns a blind eye to these three and plenty of others, but bangs down on a selective basis....AZ and ( to unending amazement ) BA in our industry are typical examples of this one-eyed way the EU sees things...
And now it's the banks, who through their own greed and mismanagement, will be saved from collapse in total contravention of current EU law..
Sure - there are critical social issues here, so....Let's be seen to have governments work within the law by changing the law - in which case AZ ( and OA for that matter ) would be entitled to receive any state aid which the Italian taxpayers are prepared to continue paying.....Then, whether it or its management deserve to be baled out yet again, becomes a moral / business issue for Italians only, not something for non-elected politicos in Brussels to decide....
Maybe, just maybe, the quick fix would be for AZ to be bought by the Italian State Railways - the Italian government could then bankroll AZ as much as it wants on the evidence of what DB and SNCF are able to get away with...
But the problem is, of course, Berlusconi is trying to engineer AZ's survival purely for his own political benefit and for his close cronies to cash-in later - that is if they don't cash-in sooner through the switching of debt and loans from their own companies into AZ....
I'd like to think that this is the reason why the EU is taking this stance against yet another kiss of life for AZ - to stop this bunch of corporate gangsters, but I doubt it...
What I'm trying to point out is that the EU just seem to be so selective - a law is a law, no ? Just because the subject / aggressor / victim / whatever is considered to be a good / bad / indifferent / whatever citizen or corporate entity, you can't just say ' Let's ignore the law because we want to help / punish the alleged subject / aggressor / victim / whatever ' Imagine....
' Of course he's been found innocent by the jury, but everyone knows he did it so he's going to jail anyway '
Think OJ Simpson ten years ago - could the judge really have said and done this ? Of course not.....
So whatever your thoughts about whether AZ should or even deserves to survive is entirely your own opinion but opinion isn't the basis of law. I have my opinion and obviously you have yours as you have stated. But my understanding is that, legally, any company in an EU member state should not receive state aid to the extent that it would result in an unfair advantage against its competitors. That is, I believe, the law
But why are so many companies and organisations seemingly free to ignore this law without attracting the same sort of vitriol as shown here against AZ ?
Top of my ' I wonder why ' list are -
- Deutsche Bahn in Germany, state owned monopoly, use State funds to subsidise acquisitions and trading losses in subsidiaries throughout Europe...
- EDF in France, state owned, who use state funds to acquire other power companies around the world whilst failing to sort out their own problems with unions, new power stations under construction in France which are plagued with technical problems and years behind schedule, and the ongoing industrial relations problems from the proposed privatisation and the effect on its employees' T&C's...
- SNCF in France, state owned, state funded, who as well as buying more and more market share in the Logistics industry in Europe, also own numerous bus and coach companies which rarely fail to win public tenders to provide bus services to towns and cities throughout France at the expense of privately owned operators....
And the list could go on and on and on.....Seems the EU regularly turns a blind eye to these three and plenty of others, but bangs down on a selective basis....AZ and ( to unending amazement ) BA in our industry are typical examples of this one-eyed way the EU sees things...
And now it's the banks, who through their own greed and mismanagement, will be saved from collapse in total contravention of current EU law..
Sure - there are critical social issues here, so....Let's be seen to have governments work within the law by changing the law - in which case AZ ( and OA for that matter ) would be entitled to receive any state aid which the Italian taxpayers are prepared to continue paying.....Then, whether it or its management deserve to be baled out yet again, becomes a moral / business issue for Italians only, not something for non-elected politicos in Brussels to decide....
Maybe, just maybe, the quick fix would be for AZ to be bought by the Italian State Railways - the Italian government could then bankroll AZ as much as it wants on the evidence of what DB and SNCF are able to get away with...
But the problem is, of course, Berlusconi is trying to engineer AZ's survival purely for his own political benefit and for his close cronies to cash-in later - that is if they don't cash-in sooner through the switching of debt and loans from their own companies into AZ....
I'd like to think that this is the reason why the EU is taking this stance against yet another kiss of life for AZ - to stop this bunch of corporate gangsters, but I doubt it...
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Apples and Oranges?
Can anyone explain for us the difference between SB and his gangsters pouring Italian taxpayers' money into AZ ( illegal under EU law, apparently ) and the UK government pouring UK taxpayers' money into some of their banks ( to be encouraged, apparently )
There. That's not so difficult to understand is it?
Last edited by philipat; 14th Oct 2008 at 07:00. Reason: Typos
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Philipat
Agree with you entirely - the gangsters are out to make money out of AZ....Said this in my first post and in the one above.....
But the law is quite clear about what EU member governments are allowed to do and what they're not allowed to do.....And there are plenty more blatant examples of illegal government subsidies and involvement than this particular AZ example.....
Is AZ a basket case that deserves to be put out of its agony ? Perhaps....
Will it help the consumer if it is ? Probably not....
Will thousands of people in the Logistics industry be put out of work if Deutsche Bahn and SNCF continue to make expensive acquisitions and subsidise losses at their non-rail subsidiaries ? Probably....
Will non-French nationals have to continue to pay higher utility bills to make up for lower, governmernt set and regulated tariffs that EDF can charge in France ? Bet your life they will....
So although I agree with your thoughts about Berlusconi and his gangster friends in the rescue only for their own benefit, I'm not sure about the EU's motives here....
So let's change the law and leave the Italian taxpayers to worry or decide what they want their own government to do with their own tax contributions and, in this case, the sordid aftermath and repercussions - or leave the law as it is but apply it to all those cases affecting all Europeans...I
As I understand it, there are still plenty of government owned carriers flying in the EU - each and every one a possible threat to fair competition. So why not just allow the Italian Government to make a rescue package available to AZ similar to those now done for the banks - at least this would prevent Berlusconi et al from raping state funds yet again....
But the law is quite clear about what EU member governments are allowed to do and what they're not allowed to do.....And there are plenty more blatant examples of illegal government subsidies and involvement than this particular AZ example.....
Is AZ a basket case that deserves to be put out of its agony ? Perhaps....
Will it help the consumer if it is ? Probably not....
Will thousands of people in the Logistics industry be put out of work if Deutsche Bahn and SNCF continue to make expensive acquisitions and subsidise losses at their non-rail subsidiaries ? Probably....
Will non-French nationals have to continue to pay higher utility bills to make up for lower, governmernt set and regulated tariffs that EDF can charge in France ? Bet your life they will....
So although I agree with your thoughts about Berlusconi and his gangster friends in the rescue only for their own benefit, I'm not sure about the EU's motives here....
So let's change the law and leave the Italian taxpayers to worry or decide what they want their own government to do with their own tax contributions and, in this case, the sordid aftermath and repercussions - or leave the law as it is but apply it to all those cases affecting all Europeans...I
As I understand it, there are still plenty of government owned carriers flying in the EU - each and every one a possible threat to fair competition. So why not just allow the Italian Government to make a rescue package available to AZ similar to those now done for the banks - at least this would prevent Berlusconi et al from raping state funds yet again....
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Apples and Oranges
As I understand it, there are still plenty of government owned carriers flying in the EU - each and every one a possible threat to fair competition
Such as?
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I may be wrong or not up to date, but I was thinking of -
TAP
AIR MALTA
CYPRUS AIRWAYS
LOT
CSA
TAROM
ADRIA
OLYMPIC
plus a few others such as AZ itself where the Government is still the largest shareholder and, as a businessman, you'll know you always listen closely to what your largest shareholder has to say....
TAP
AIR MALTA
CYPRUS AIRWAYS
LOT
CSA
TAROM
ADRIA
OLYMPIC
plus a few others such as AZ itself where the Government is still the largest shareholder and, as a businessman, you'll know you always listen closely to what your largest shareholder has to say....
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Prifit not Taxpayer subsidies
TAP
AIR MALTA
CYPRUS AIRWAYS
LOT
CSA
TAROM
ADRIA
OLYMPIC
AIR MALTA
CYPRUS AIRWAYS
LOT
CSA
TAROM
ADRIA
OLYMPIC
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AZ problably close a lot of routes out of MXP (more domestic routes like PMO, CTA, NAP, BRI..) and FCO (LAX, DXB + several european routes). Does anybody have further information?
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From the winter season Alitalia close these routes:
MXP AMS
MXP GVA
MXP SXB
MXP MUC
MXP BIO
MXP TRS
MXP NAP
MXP BEG
MXP PRG
MXP STR
FCO LIS
FCO TXL
FCO AGP
FCO SKG
FCO VLC
FCO VIE
FCO DXB
FCO LAX from 9 november
FCO ZRH
NAP VCE
MXP AMS
MXP GVA
MXP SXB
MXP MUC
MXP BIO
MXP TRS
MXP NAP
MXP BEG
MXP PRG
MXP STR
FCO LIS
FCO TXL
FCO AGP
FCO SKG
FCO VLC
FCO VIE
FCO DXB
FCO LAX from 9 november
FCO ZRH
NAP VCE
Last edited by cesare.caldi; 20th Oct 2008 at 21:09.
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The first unofficial news from Brussels
According to the infomation given by World Aeronautical Press Agency, the European Commission's opinion, which is probably due for mid-November, could give the go-ahead to Alitalia rescue plan. There are, however, two questions that CAI will have to take into account: assets and the 300 million Euros loan.
Brussels will probably ask assets to be sold by Alitalia Extraordinary Commissioner Augusto Fantozzi at market prices. Brussels could also ask discontinuity and the giving back of the 300 million Euros loan granted by the Government to Alitalia, not in line with EU rules on State-aid.
An "Independent trustee" will probably monitor the privatization process (e.g. asset or discontinuity) in order to report to the EU Commission.
Brussels will probably ask assets to be sold by Alitalia Extraordinary Commissioner Augusto Fantozzi at market prices. Brussels could also ask discontinuity and the giving back of the 300 million Euros loan granted by the Government to Alitalia, not in line with EU rules on State-aid.
An "Independent trustee" will probably monitor the privatization process (e.g. asset or discontinuity) in order to report to the EU Commission.
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I am sorry for joining this discussion late because it is very interesting. Can someone tell me what the plan is for combining AZ's assets with Air One? Will Air One absorb AZ's operation (e.g., the 777s) and take on some of its employees including pilots? Even with the global economic slowdown an Italian market without AZ will be a huge boon for Air One domestically. I assume FR will jump in to fill the void. Anyone know a rough outline of the plan?
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1. Is the cancellation-list of these above named routes official? I didn't see it on other sites til now. Only LAX, EWR and DXB are suspended.
2. Because of FR and EZY started and will start a lot of domestic routes I want to know how many domestic passengers AZ carried last year and what they're carry this year? What could be the potential of the Italian market?
2. Because of FR and EZY started and will start a lot of domestic routes I want to know how many domestic passengers AZ carried last year and what they're carry this year? What could be the potential of the Italian market?
The Alitalia drama seems to go on and on. Negotiations with unions on Monday failed to make unions sign a detailed contract with CAI. The CAI investors will most likely make an offer for the good parts of Alitalia, but only on condition they don´t have to take on paying back the 300 million euro loan which the EU considers illegal. There´s even talk about Alitalia having to take a new loan as cash reserves are dwindling.
Business Feed Article | Business | guardian.co.uk
Business Feed Article | Business | guardian.co.uk
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Alitalia - Here we go again (one last time)
Talks have broken down and the clock is ticking again. Will she ever lie down and die?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081030/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_italy_alitalia
EagleStar
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081030/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_italy_alitalia
EagleStar
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one last time? ... I don't think so ... we are talking about Italians here 
If you are a regular visitor to FCO, you can see that there are about a dozen 'individuals' wondering around the aircraft with radios & clipboards. They all appear VERY important and do lots of furtive communicating into hand held devices - but nobody is actually doing anything - it suprises me every time I see it
For the Italians, it's all about drama - no substance what-so-ever
If you are a regular visitor to FCO, you can see that there are about a dozen 'individuals' wondering around the aircraft with radios & clipboards. They all appear VERY important and do lots of furtive communicating into hand held devices - but nobody is actually doing anything - it suprises me every time I see it
For the Italians, it's all about drama - no substance what-so-ever