Alitalia (Merged)
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jetset320 & flareflyer
....thank you both for getting things in the right prospective...as I said few months ago in another thread it is not about money it is all about politics...aside my personal opinions (at that time I was not a union member now I'm Anpac) the Air France deal was sunk
mainly but not only by the government-to-be...it was all done well above our heads....now it is a bit different story, they were going to get the Newco (no debts no layoffs) with a deposit of 160.000 euro (no I did not forget any zero)...AND they also wanted us to sign our death sentence...things are not over yet... the gov. is having contact with Cai again as I'm writing this post..we shall see the outcome...but I'm sure that if they come back with the same proposal and we cave in ,then no flag carrier (and do not tell me there are none around) is safe anymore...
....thank you both for getting things in the right prospective...as I said few months ago in another thread it is not about money it is all about politics...aside my personal opinions (at that time I was not a union member now I'm Anpac) the Air France deal was sunk
mainly but not only by the government-to-be...it was all done well above our heads....now it is a bit different story, they were going to get the Newco (no debts no layoffs) with a deposit of 160.000 euro (no I did not forget any zero)...AND they also wanted us to sign our death sentence...things are not over yet... the gov. is having contact with Cai again as I'm writing this post..we shall see the outcome...but I'm sure that if they come back with the same proposal and we cave in ,then no flag carrier (and do not tell me there are none around) is safe anymore...
Because in the Uk credit crisis is always in the headlines, and media making a big thing about it, in Italy this crisis is not so bad YET or at least the TV it tells them like that. But Alitalia was always in the spot light for the last month or so (even the day Lehman went down).
The 'UK credit crisis', ok that puts a perspective of your view of the world. You think a little bankrupt Italian airline is of any significance compared to the biggest economic crash since 1929? Shares in the US lost $4 trillion dollars in the last week alone. Lehman and AIG are 300billion dollars and 150,00 jobs that will have disappeared.
Aitalia are utterly insignificant compared to what has happened and what will happen over the next couple of years.They are bankrupt when the world economy is booming they have no chance when its crashing.
then no flag carrier (and do not tell me there are none around) is safe anymore...
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Bored
I was just about to make the comment about the Flight Time Limitations. What we see here is a union denial of the existence of a real world. Of course the crews would have had adequate rest - its the law!!! If they dont like shifts being swapped they should try working in a bar - a few 12-14 hour consecutive days followed by a shift swap and never more than minimum rest should sort the wheat from the chaff. The offer still included a month of vacation (welcome to the real world guys) and a salary that I understand would still equal those in other airlines (except for a few notable WELL MANAGED examples).
Do I only blame the unions - no. All problems have to stem from inept management and corrupt politics. By example, I am AM of a small turboprop start-up and my salary is capped at 30 000 Euro until we are in profit. It sure as hell focuses the mind! Do I think an AZ CEO would every have taken up this challenge, of course not because they know it is not do-able, the unions will not give and no one will allow you to cut anything from anywhere. All employees need to learn that an airline is a BUSINESS, not a charity for the provision of opulent lifestyles, AZ or FR, no difference.
For those Alitalia crews who realise they have had it too good for too long, I am sorry for your plight. For those who have no grasp of reality, I trust you will enjoy your almost certain forthcoming unemployment, after all it is better than working and doing the job you love, right?
RIX
p.s. those 767/777/A320 pilots who will end up on the job market and still believe they are owed something and got a raw deal need not apply to my airline (although you may be lucky enough for someone to give you a turboprop job somewhere). Believe me, we do our damndest to recruit people who have at least a basic apreciation of the fact they are part of a BUSINESS.
Do I only blame the unions - no. All problems have to stem from inept management and corrupt politics. By example, I am AM of a small turboprop start-up and my salary is capped at 30 000 Euro until we are in profit. It sure as hell focuses the mind! Do I think an AZ CEO would every have taken up this challenge, of course not because they know it is not do-able, the unions will not give and no one will allow you to cut anything from anywhere. All employees need to learn that an airline is a BUSINESS, not a charity for the provision of opulent lifestyles, AZ or FR, no difference.
For those Alitalia crews who realise they have had it too good for too long, I am sorry for your plight. For those who have no grasp of reality, I trust you will enjoy your almost certain forthcoming unemployment, after all it is better than working and doing the job you love, right?
RIX
p.s. those 767/777/A320 pilots who will end up on the job market and still believe they are owed something and got a raw deal need not apply to my airline (although you may be lucky enough for someone to give you a turboprop job somewhere). Believe me, we do our damndest to recruit people who have at least a basic apreciation of the fact they are part of a BUSINESS.
Pegase Driver
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Some amazing remarks made here.
I am not Italian, not working for Alitalia, not even a commercial pilot, but I know a bit about Unions, and in my (too) long career in Aviation I have so fair failed to see in Europe a case where Unions were acting against the interest of THE MAJORITY of their members. Blaming Unions for failures of “ agreements” to save a company is as old as the Unionized world exists I imagine.
Believe me : Unions are generally good for the workers , not for Management. Ask any FR pilot.
AZ will most probably go due to poor management : ,a new company ( or more likely the expansion of a small existing one ) will take over the business and the slots. They will need airframes and pilots to do so . But the salaries and working conditions will be different, very different. I call this reduction to the lowest common denominator , and we should realize that is bad for ALL of us.
If you want an idea of what is the common lowest , have a look on you East . I know of a company operating B737-300 and Ba146s , whose Capts are paid 1550 EUR a month and their cabin crew 700. This company is operating daily from Germany, France and the UK and their load factors are very good. They have expansion plans. They are making money, but not for their staff.
My point is, there is nothing to rejoice at the demise on one of the established t airlines that paid its people good money .. And we should not blame the Unions for this.
My sympathy to AZ pilots . (As good ,if not better, professionals as many others flying around , including language skills !)
I am not Italian, not working for Alitalia, not even a commercial pilot, but I know a bit about Unions, and in my (too) long career in Aviation I have so fair failed to see in Europe a case where Unions were acting against the interest of THE MAJORITY of their members. Blaming Unions for failures of “ agreements” to save a company is as old as the Unionized world exists I imagine.
Believe me : Unions are generally good for the workers , not for Management. Ask any FR pilot.
AZ will most probably go due to poor management : ,a new company ( or more likely the expansion of a small existing one ) will take over the business and the slots. They will need airframes and pilots to do so . But the salaries and working conditions will be different, very different. I call this reduction to the lowest common denominator , and we should realize that is bad for ALL of us.
If you want an idea of what is the common lowest , have a look on you East . I know of a company operating B737-300 and Ba146s , whose Capts are paid 1550 EUR a month and their cabin crew 700. This company is operating daily from Germany, France and the UK and their load factors are very good. They have expansion plans. They are making money, but not for their staff.
My point is, there is nothing to rejoice at the demise on one of the established t airlines that paid its people good money .. And we should not blame the Unions for this.
My sympathy to AZ pilots . (As good ,if not better, professionals as many others flying around , including language skills !)
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peter we
...as of now there are no unemployed people...tomorrow is another day...also do you really think that my paycheck is the reason for this disaster? (my as of crew members)...get some facts on Az history...when I joined 20 years ago (a lowly one striped) we were already on the "green mile"...but we kept hiring lots of highly paid managers,huge numbers of less paid non flying personnel all of them tied to one political party or another,we opened not profitable route just to pick up gov. people that needed to be in Rome in the morning and back home in the evening..we gave up profitable slots to let other italian company fly..just to mention a few...it is endless!!
During all this I averaged 600 hrs a year no questions asked...and now they say I'm getting paid too much!! (30% less compared to european market)...well it stinks.
...as of now there are no unemployed people...tomorrow is another day...also do you really think that my paycheck is the reason for this disaster? (my as of crew members)...get some facts on Az history...when I joined 20 years ago (a lowly one striped) we were already on the "green mile"...but we kept hiring lots of highly paid managers,huge numbers of less paid non flying personnel all of them tied to one political party or another,we opened not profitable route just to pick up gov. people that needed to be in Rome in the morning and back home in the evening..we gave up profitable slots to let other italian company fly..just to mention a few...it is endless!!
During all this I averaged 600 hrs a year no questions asked...and now they say I'm getting paid too much!! (30% less compared to european market)...well it stinks.
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I have no sympathy wahtsoever towards this company or its unions! It has been the same story all over again.
I have survived a similar scenario at SABENA. Nobody thought we would go bankrupt, the unions continued to strike despite the allover voice of the employees who knew they where about to loose EVERYTHING!
But no, the pissing contest between management and unions had to be continued!
End result:
SABENA bankrupt
15000 employees jobless
Personal dramas all over ( 4 colleague pilots committed suicide!!!!!!!!!)
It is so sad to see this scenario repeating itself these days, only now the social drama will be about 4 times larger!
Union leaders and management alltogether should be publically executed, as they will be the sole responsibles for the drama that is about to be unfold!
A DISGRACE!
My thoughts go out to the thousands of inncent employees who will be without their bread and butter soon.
I have survived a similar scenario at SABENA. Nobody thought we would go bankrupt, the unions continued to strike despite the allover voice of the employees who knew they where about to loose EVERYTHING!
But no, the pissing contest between management and unions had to be continued!
End result:
SABENA bankrupt
15000 employees jobless
Personal dramas all over ( 4 colleague pilots committed suicide!!!!!!!!!)
It is so sad to see this scenario repeating itself these days, only now the social drama will be about 4 times larger!
Union leaders and management alltogether should be publically executed, as they will be the sole responsibles for the drama that is about to be unfold!
A DISGRACE!
My thoughts go out to the thousands of inncent employees who will be without their bread and butter soon.
Too mean to buy a long personal title
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to post #81
There are no plans for a strike,actually right now the word is max cooperation to keep the planes in the air (we are also thinking to give 1/3 of the next month salary toward this goal)...and the majority of the Az workers are against the Cai proposal.
There are no plans for a strike,actually right now the word is max cooperation to keep the planes in the air (we are also thinking to give 1/3 of the next month salary toward this goal)...and the majority of the Az workers are against the Cai proposal.
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md
'During all this I averaged 600 hrs a year no questions asked...and now they say I'm getting paid too much!! (30% less compared to european market)...well it stinks.'
No offence, but the beancounters will love that statement.
600 hrs pa v 900 hrs pa allowable = fair pay.
Then the beancounter will kick someones arse for under utilisation.
All of us in the industry, from the sharp end of an aeroplane to the humble grunt as myself and everyone in between, are nothing but assets in the real world of profitability.
That I am sorry to say is fact to a beancounter.
No offence, but the beancounters will love that statement.
600 hrs pa v 900 hrs pa allowable = fair pay.
Then the beancounter will kick someones arse for under utilisation.
All of us in the industry, from the sharp end of an aeroplane to the humble grunt as myself and everyone in between, are nothing but assets in the real world of profitability.
That I am sorry to say is fact to a beancounter.
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BBC News just said that AZ has been given ten days to come up with a rescue plan. Then another ten days, then another..........
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LH and BA management and staff accepted the truth in the late-1980s that the nimble customer: pays our wages and has options to not fly at all, or to fly on AN Other. Those of each now-defunct carrier of heritage, pride and pedigree (PA, TW, EA, SR, SN...) disputed that and believed their team to be in some way special/necessary/valuable, such that (you and I from our taxes: Govts. per se have no money) would do the right thing if cost:income went haywire. But Govts.' purses are buffeted by many supplicants. Alitalia (and Olympic) have a problem: there is a Latin perception that "efficiency" is an Anglo-Saxon bacillus inapplicable to cultured folk. But their National Sport is not soccer but defrauding the Revenue. Italy has few taxpayers, so Big Business (such as a Buffett) must heal lame ducks. Why would they burden themselves as charities for AZ?
Alitalia will be flying as long as there is money - the Govt. will loan them some more,
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Jet22
The airplanes won't go too far.
The company, Alitalia, will cease to exist, debts written off, and Alitalia 2008 will come to life.
Some of the staff will be offered jobs at lower rates of pay with different terms and conditions.
The older inefficient aircraft will be retired, non profitable routes cut, and fleet structure simplified: a single type for short haul, Airbus, and a single type for long haul, 777.
The airplanes won't go too far.
The company, Alitalia, will cease to exist, debts written off, and Alitalia 2008 will come to life.
Some of the staff will be offered jobs at lower rates of pay with different terms and conditions.
The older inefficient aircraft will be retired, non profitable routes cut, and fleet structure simplified: a single type for short haul, Airbus, and a single type for long haul, 777.
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That will be the same CAA ( ENAC) that were so feared by some of my colleagues in an Italian charter company ( no names wouldn't want you to become blue with paranoi) that they were happy to write fuel used in the tech log several tonnes more than departure fuel in an A/C with a leaking centre tank ,with ABSOLUTELY NO fear of recrimination.
ENAC is a medieval joke, they won't be doing anything they are not told to do from WAY
above ( & I don't mean the vatican )
Sgnr de L' Atlantique
Exactly the same situation, but I have a feeling it will end differently, due to , how shall we say, some "local differences" in running a country.
ENAC is a medieval joke, they won't be doing anything they are not told to do from WAY
above ( & I don't mean the vatican )
Sgnr de L' Atlantique
Exactly the same situation, but I have a feeling it will end differently, due to , how shall we say, some "local differences" in running a country.
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My point exactly Spicejetter AZ will go on and on like this, just as OA will.
Now if a major UK airline was in the same position it would be a different story.
Taking cover....
D
Now if a major UK airline was in the same position it would be a different story.
Taking cover....
D
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Viking
Viking,
are you purposedly forgetting the most of the 'Alitalia' companies were saved, in the past, by Leftist Government ? ? Silvio's party, in the last 50 years, has governed Italy for a mere maximum of 5 years (most of them in a row, which is a record here in Italy !) . So, contrary to what you are trying to show to us prrunists, Silvio's is the FIRST government to try to stop this habit of State aid to dead companies..
are you purposedly forgetting the most of the 'Alitalia' companies were saved, in the past, by Leftist Government ? ? Silvio's party, in the last 50 years, has governed Italy for a mere maximum of 5 years (most of them in a row, which is a record here in Italy !) . So, contrary to what you are trying to show to us prrunists, Silvio's is the FIRST government to try to stop this habit of State aid to dead companies..
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Way back on Page 1 ( or was it Page 2 ) someone actually asked the question and I can't recall seeing a reply....
All the ' Good Riddance ' posts / it's your own fault posts / etc / etc ' haven't actually stated just what the AZ crews are supposed to be getting paid in cash / benefits / etc more than any other of the European legacy carriers...
Until there are some concrete examples ( not the usual rumours about limos from home to airport each day, etc, but genuine advantages that would give AZ the BIG savings so obviously needed ) then I have to think that Management are almost 100% to blame for how the company ended up in this state....
We have two ex-AZ guys freelancing with us at the moment - bloody good pilots and bloody nice people ! All this nonsense earlier about ' could you VFR, etc ' Come on.......Get knocked back at BA did you ?
Thoughts with you crew who might ultimately lose your jobs as a result of the current situation and inevitable changes which are going to happen - as the post said earlier, the gangster called Berlusconi stopped the AF-KLM deal ( which was a far better, well thought out business plan for survival and expansion than what we are led to believe is the current proposal ) for the benefit of getting himself re-elected and so, I am reliably informed, that some of his gangster friends could 'transfer' some of their own debts and liabilities into a dying AZ in a way which you have to admire Italian business ethics and the laws which lets them get away with it....
Bank 'A' lends money to Company ' X '...Company ' X ' is having a little difficulty repaying the loan, but agrees to repaying 50% of the loan back to Bank ' A ' which then provides ' Emergency Finance ' to AZ Mark 1.....Company ' X ' then gets a nice little equity stake in AZ Mark 2 after AZ Mark 1 is closed down overnight and reborn the next morning as AZ Mark 2..... Company ' X ' thus has its reputation still intact and Bank ' A ' writes off the other 50% of the loan against the AZ Mark 1 closure knowing that they are more likely to get their money back as AZ Mark 1 is still, essentially, a Government owned organisation which will pay its creditors ....
But it seems this week that there is a slight problem with this plan and the gangsters are now playing for time.....As soon as the lawyers / finance people have figured out how these debts can be legally ' transferred ' into AZ Mark 1, the same deal and the same names / faces will probably resurface....
It's then up to you employees to make a difficult choice - same job for less money as that's 100% certain to happen, or up and away to a different company / continent for the same job and a bit more money than if you stay....
All the ' Good Riddance ' posts / it's your own fault posts / etc / etc ' haven't actually stated just what the AZ crews are supposed to be getting paid in cash / benefits / etc more than any other of the European legacy carriers...
Until there are some concrete examples ( not the usual rumours about limos from home to airport each day, etc, but genuine advantages that would give AZ the BIG savings so obviously needed ) then I have to think that Management are almost 100% to blame for how the company ended up in this state....
We have two ex-AZ guys freelancing with us at the moment - bloody good pilots and bloody nice people ! All this nonsense earlier about ' could you VFR, etc ' Come on.......Get knocked back at BA did you ?
Thoughts with you crew who might ultimately lose your jobs as a result of the current situation and inevitable changes which are going to happen - as the post said earlier, the gangster called Berlusconi stopped the AF-KLM deal ( which was a far better, well thought out business plan for survival and expansion than what we are led to believe is the current proposal ) for the benefit of getting himself re-elected and so, I am reliably informed, that some of his gangster friends could 'transfer' some of their own debts and liabilities into a dying AZ in a way which you have to admire Italian business ethics and the laws which lets them get away with it....
Bank 'A' lends money to Company ' X '...Company ' X ' is having a little difficulty repaying the loan, but agrees to repaying 50% of the loan back to Bank ' A ' which then provides ' Emergency Finance ' to AZ Mark 1.....Company ' X ' then gets a nice little equity stake in AZ Mark 2 after AZ Mark 1 is closed down overnight and reborn the next morning as AZ Mark 2..... Company ' X ' thus has its reputation still intact and Bank ' A ' writes off the other 50% of the loan against the AZ Mark 1 closure knowing that they are more likely to get their money back as AZ Mark 1 is still, essentially, a Government owned organisation which will pay its creditors ....
But it seems this week that there is a slight problem with this plan and the gangsters are now playing for time.....As soon as the lawyers / finance people have figured out how these debts can be legally ' transferred ' into AZ Mark 1, the same deal and the same names / faces will probably resurface....
It's then up to you employees to make a difficult choice - same job for less money as that's 100% certain to happen, or up and away to a different company / continent for the same job and a bit more money than if you stay....