Alitalia (Merged)
short flights long nights
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BBC just reported that Alitalia has started cancelling flights out of FCO..is this true?
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Daniel,
I feel so sorry for you but this is exactly what Silivo and his govt wants you to think. We all know just how powerful he is. Now in reality IF he really wanted to close AZ down, dont you think the airline would have been gone long long time ago?
Silvio is in control of Italy and the finances, and AZ survival. He is the one who has given AZ the money to survive with his political tools and connections/ agreements. Thats why I write that once the people decides to stop their tax money going into the airline, and EU makes sure that the airline is run according to the rules (how that will be possible in Italy) the airline will go bust.
Speaking of pilots not having ANYTHING to do with an airline going bust, might not be totally true. How many of you really care about if you are 5 min late or 30 min late? How many of you helps the CC to clean up the cabin during the turn arounds to make it all happen faster? Nothing personal, and this is NOT an accusation to anyone, ok? Its just a thought....
Of course I feel sorry for colleagues losing their jobs, thats a really bad thing to happen.
I feel so sorry for you but this is exactly what Silivo and his govt wants you to think. We all know just how powerful he is. Now in reality IF he really wanted to close AZ down, dont you think the airline would have been gone long long time ago?
Silvio is in control of Italy and the finances, and AZ survival. He is the one who has given AZ the money to survive with his political tools and connections/ agreements. Thats why I write that once the people decides to stop their tax money going into the airline, and EU makes sure that the airline is run according to the rules (how that will be possible in Italy) the airline will go bust.
Speaking of pilots not having ANYTHING to do with an airline going bust, might not be totally true. How many of you really care about if you are 5 min late or 30 min late? How many of you helps the CC to clean up the cabin during the turn arounds to make it all happen faster? Nothing personal, and this is NOT an accusation to anyone, ok? Its just a thought....
Of course I feel sorry for colleagues losing their jobs, thats a really bad thing to happen.
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Viking
No, what you re saying is not true, the last loan of Eu 300 Mio was approved under Mr Prodi government and BEFORE the political elections that put Berlusconi's Government in place - are you aware of this ?!
Now in reality IF he really wanted to close AZ down, dont you think the airline would have been gone long long time ago?
Silvio is in control of Italy and the finances, and AZ survival. He is the one who has given AZ the money to survive with his political tools and connections/ agreements.
Besides, don't you think that we, in Italy, are more than mature to understand which type of politicians are best for our economy and finance ? Why so many people abroad are insulting our politicians - and indirectly also ourself who voted them - without even know the basic italian language to read an Italian newspaper ?
this is exactly what Silivo and his govt wants you to think.
Do you really think that 25 millions of voters cannot think by themself ? ? That Berlusconi is possessing our mind ? Were you were 5-10-15-20 years ago ? Are you constantly update with our (or whatever else) Country politics ?
We, in Italy, are not better or worse than your Country fellow citizens.
Why you think that Berlusconi has more 'political tools and connections/agreement' than any other Government in Italy (or in your own Country as well?).
From which Country are you, to consider yourself so smart to suggest me that you are interpreting Italian politics better than me ? ?
No, what you re saying is not true, the last loan of Eu 300 Mio was approved under Mr Prodi government and BEFORE the political elections that put Berlusconi's Government in place - are you aware of this ?!
Now in reality IF he really wanted to close AZ down, dont you think the airline would have been gone long long time ago?
Silvio is in control of Italy and the finances, and AZ survival. He is the one who has given AZ the money to survive with his political tools and connections/ agreements.
Besides, don't you think that we, in Italy, are more than mature to understand which type of politicians are best for our economy and finance ? Why so many people abroad are insulting our politicians - and indirectly also ourself who voted them - without even know the basic italian language to read an Italian newspaper ?
this is exactly what Silivo and his govt wants you to think.
Do you really think that 25 millions of voters cannot think by themself ? ? That Berlusconi is possessing our mind ? Were you were 5-10-15-20 years ago ? Are you constantly update with our (or whatever else) Country politics ?
We, in Italy, are not better or worse than your Country fellow citizens.
Why you think that Berlusconi has more 'political tools and connections/agreement' than any other Government in Italy (or in your own Country as well?).
From which Country are you, to consider yourself so smart to suggest me that you are interpreting Italian politics better than me ? ?
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Helping the CC cleaning the cabin
I know that i come from a sh==tty country, and that alitalia deserve to go bust. But what you suggested in oder to save it is just a joke. Is this what you do in SAS??
Last edited by Lazy skip; 19th Sep 2008 at 13:26.
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Berlusconi used AZ during his campaign by tricking the Itailans into the false belief that he had a better plan than AF. He played the ''Italianity'' card ad nauseam instilling into the people that it was an outrage to let ''another country'' take over in Italy. Don't forget that he owns televisions and the majority of the newspapers. This is very important, because unfortunately if every media is reporting blatant lies people will believe it. When the talks were in progress with AF, the media he controls were all repeating like a mantra that he had better plans and investors (who all denied one by one when they were named by Berlusconi) and let's keep AZ Italian. Everybody in Italy had already forgot that AZ had been for sale for almost 2 years, and that anyone who showed interest had turned heels after having a look at the books and the conditions for the sale. Only AF had stayed.
The workers in AZ are not responsible of decades of mismanagement dictated by politicians whose goal was not to make the company thrive, but look after their political interests by pleasing the puppet masters of business. The management of AZ was there only to ensure things stayed the same. The only guy who really wanted to do his job properly and started acting accordingly lasted only a couple of months, then died in a suspicious ''accident''. The history of AZ is a never ending story of business nonsense (for AZ) but where some people were making a fortune on the back of the airline. They could because anyway someone was going to pay the bill in the end.
Where the workers have a responsibility is on not realizing that it was not going to last and act accordingly. They were made sleepy by their full stomachs and while the conditions of the rest of Civil Aviation in Italy were going downhill, they still believed that because of the fact they were AZ they were special and that someone (the politicians with taxpayers' money) would always be there to take care of them. They didn't budge when airline after airline fell by the wayside. The same AZ workers who are now demanding solidarity gave none to others. They looked the other way feeling privileged and unconcerned. When they could have had some power to lobby for a national contract that could be quite useful to them now but mostly would have profited the small outfits at the time, they didn't bother. This is why it is quite difficult for Italian (non AZ) pilots to offer this solidarity to them now.
This said, I believe they deserve our solidarity when they are offered a joke of ''take it or leave it'' contract that makes the workers (mostly pilots and cabin crew) pay for the lack of organization of the structure. I have read it, and I would have laughed at some of the items proposed weren't they deadly serious. Plots and cabin crew would be made to pay to allow a bunch of tycoons make a fat deal, as it has been happening for a decade. For a decade the conditions of crew have shrunk basically to allow the beancounters to keep squandering money for the politicians. All this paired with a hate campaign courtesy of Mr Berlusconi to blame AZ workers for the losses and the unions for not letting him scr** them.
The so called Italian solution is not one that will ever work, because it has never worked until now. I believe that the only solution would be a foreign takeover to really change things.
The workers in AZ are not responsible of decades of mismanagement dictated by politicians whose goal was not to make the company thrive, but look after their political interests by pleasing the puppet masters of business. The management of AZ was there only to ensure things stayed the same. The only guy who really wanted to do his job properly and started acting accordingly lasted only a couple of months, then died in a suspicious ''accident''. The history of AZ is a never ending story of business nonsense (for AZ) but where some people were making a fortune on the back of the airline. They could because anyway someone was going to pay the bill in the end.
Where the workers have a responsibility is on not realizing that it was not going to last and act accordingly. They were made sleepy by their full stomachs and while the conditions of the rest of Civil Aviation in Italy were going downhill, they still believed that because of the fact they were AZ they were special and that someone (the politicians with taxpayers' money) would always be there to take care of them. They didn't budge when airline after airline fell by the wayside. The same AZ workers who are now demanding solidarity gave none to others. They looked the other way feeling privileged and unconcerned. When they could have had some power to lobby for a national contract that could be quite useful to them now but mostly would have profited the small outfits at the time, they didn't bother. This is why it is quite difficult for Italian (non AZ) pilots to offer this solidarity to them now.
This said, I believe they deserve our solidarity when they are offered a joke of ''take it or leave it'' contract that makes the workers (mostly pilots and cabin crew) pay for the lack of organization of the structure. I have read it, and I would have laughed at some of the items proposed weren't they deadly serious. Plots and cabin crew would be made to pay to allow a bunch of tycoons make a fat deal, as it has been happening for a decade. For a decade the conditions of crew have shrunk basically to allow the beancounters to keep squandering money for the politicians. All this paired with a hate campaign courtesy of Mr Berlusconi to blame AZ workers for the losses and the unions for not letting him scr** them.
The so called Italian solution is not one that will ever work, because it has never worked until now. I believe that the only solution would be a foreign takeover to really change things.
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Regardless of the politics involved within this terrible situation my thoughts go out to ALL STAFF Flight Crew/Ground Crew/Operations/Logistics/HR/Admin and every other member of staff within the organisation, waiting for news to see if you have a job or not, is not a pleasant experience.
I do hope some form of resolution can be reached soon.
Good Luck to all In Air Italia
I do hope some form of resolution can be reached soon.
Good Luck to all In Air Italia
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It's the Unions/Pilots/Management/Governments fault! (delete as appropriate).
Kind of irrelevant. I don't care whether or not Alitalia pilots wear Armani or not. It doesn't bother me whether or not there are Limos picking them up from home to take a free flight from MXP to FCO and back after they've been shopping for a nice pair of shoes on the company credit card.
What I care about is the State funding, which is ultimately funding received from the EU. If all countries can do it, so be it, but it is not permitted under EU legislation. So why is it overlooked? Why don't other governments point out this discrepancy and call for a stop to it?
If they can make their company work without the State funding, good for them. But they can't! This operation is not economically viable. It only exists because it is illegally receiving the tax paid by the nationals of other EU countries. I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay more tax so that Italy can have a "National" airline.
The fact that Alitalia has been supported by government funding creates an "un-level playing field". It makes it harder for other companies to compete on fares and therefore attract customers. This has made it harder for other companies to operate competitively (and some have gone under). So those companies that don't receive State funding have had to pay their pilots less than if Alitalia didn't receive State funding. Hence, an uneconomic pay scheme at Alitalia contributes to lower wages and potentially airline collapses elsewhere.
Sitting back with my bag of popcorn...
Chips
Kind of irrelevant. I don't care whether or not Alitalia pilots wear Armani or not. It doesn't bother me whether or not there are Limos picking them up from home to take a free flight from MXP to FCO and back after they've been shopping for a nice pair of shoes on the company credit card.
What I care about is the State funding, which is ultimately funding received from the EU. If all countries can do it, so be it, but it is not permitted under EU legislation. So why is it overlooked? Why don't other governments point out this discrepancy and call for a stop to it?
If they can make their company work without the State funding, good for them. But they can't! This operation is not economically viable. It only exists because it is illegally receiving the tax paid by the nationals of other EU countries. I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay more tax so that Italy can have a "National" airline.
The fact that Alitalia has been supported by government funding creates an "un-level playing field". It makes it harder for other companies to compete on fares and therefore attract customers. This has made it harder for other companies to operate competitively (and some have gone under). So those companies that don't receive State funding have had to pay their pilots less than if Alitalia didn't receive State funding. Hence, an uneconomic pay scheme at Alitalia contributes to lower wages and potentially airline collapses elsewhere.
Sitting back with my bag of popcorn...
Chips
Dysag
Better don't go down that route.
Don't know which soutwest you write from but looking at the mess most of the world finds itself in right now I don't thinkthere is much to lecture Italians about.
Don't know which soutwest you write from but looking at the mess most of the world finds itself in right now I don't thinkthere is much to lecture Italians about.
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I'm a bit tired of listening to the whining of other EU nationals complaining about "their tax money going to Alitalia". Note at the same time I'm AGAINST SUBSIDY from state to airlines
Maybe because each and any EU country has something "not quite right" about obeyance to rules ? Do we want start debating the "subsidies" (hard cash in that case) that the UK receives from the EU apparently to keep them in the union ?
Please explain exactly how your domestic tax money would go to EU then in turn to Italy and then to Alitalia (or any other illegally subsided country/airline). As far as I know the funds for this malpractice are STOLEN FROM ITALIANS WALLETS.
Finally I want to remind that for previous case of state aid to Alitalia, there have been lenghy legal proceedings and appeals that culminated in some fine that have been settled already. For the latest 300M "bridge-loan" the EU will slowly proceed to "make justice", in reality it will become a bartering of favours and a reason more to exists for the various legal departments involved.
What I care about is the State funding, which is ultimately funding received from the EU. If all countries can do it, so be it, but it is not permitted under EU legislation. So why is it overlooked? Why don't other governments point out this discrepancy and call for a stop to it?
It only exists because it is illegally receiving the tax paid by the nationals of other EU countries. I don't know about you, but I don't want to pay more tax so that Italy can have a "National" airline.
Finally I want to remind that for previous case of state aid to Alitalia, there have been lenghy legal proceedings and appeals that culminated in some fine that have been settled already. For the latest 300M "bridge-loan" the EU will slowly proceed to "make justice", in reality it will become a bartering of favours and a reason more to exists for the various legal departments involved.
Last edited by el #; 19th Sep 2008 at 15:04. Reason: spelling
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Interesting that you choose the UK,...but OK.
THe UK provides about £9 billion pounds per year to the EU central coffers of which it receives back about £6 billion in the forms of "approved" subsidies for things various industries/project, like agriculture, an industry that France insisted on being allowed to continue to support. Fair enough as all the countries in the EU will receive money from the EU to support these same industries.
However, no state government is permitted to give money to an airline. The Italian government has always argued that money was "loaned" to Alitalia, not given. But after 10 years of money travelling only one way in that relationship, other States within the EU are begining to question it's legitimacy.
If the Italian government received NO money from the EU, I would agree with you. But as they do, it can be argued that the received money is subsidising the subsidy, which is why it's not permitted under EU law.
Chips
THe UK provides about £9 billion pounds per year to the EU central coffers of which it receives back about £6 billion in the forms of "approved" subsidies for things various industries/project, like agriculture, an industry that France insisted on being allowed to continue to support. Fair enough as all the countries in the EU will receive money from the EU to support these same industries.
However, no state government is permitted to give money to an airline. The Italian government has always argued that money was "loaned" to Alitalia, not given. But after 10 years of money travelling only one way in that relationship, other States within the EU are begining to question it's legitimacy.
Please explain exactly how your domestic tax money would go to EU then in turn to Italy and then to Alitalia (or any other illegally subsided country/airline). As far as I know the funds for this malpractice are STOLEN FROM ITALIANS WALLETS.
Chips
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There is no more "European" taxpayers money going to Alitalia than "European" taxpayers money having been spent on nationalising Northern Rock in the UK.
Successive Italian governments have felt this is a good way to spend THEIR taxpayers money, and the public has been complicit. I for one applaud them for doing what they believe is right even if it breaks european union rules, surely a state has the right to spend its own money as it sees fit.
Of course there has been corruption and mis-management, this was an Italian state company, but thats the Italian publics issue no one elses, and to say it wasn't the staffs fault, of course it was. It was the fault of everyone would turned a blind eye.
HOWEVER, surely the time has come to turn off the life support, several of the unions appear to think they will come out with a better deal, 20, 10, 5 even 1 year ago they would, this time they won't. They will lose their jobs at an incredibly difficult time, and I feel sorry for them individually, but collectively. what are they playing at! The best way to get better pay and conditions is to make yourself indispensable then put the pressure on the company when they cannot do without you then you re-negotiate, the world is in a severe financial down turn, please accept what they offer then when and if Alitalia is a major player then press for better pay and conditions. Remember its in the interest of anyone buying Alitalia to get the lowest possible price and to start offering contracts on their terms alone.
Please remember to a non-aviation employee 600 hours a year or even 900 hours a year doesn't seem an awful lot when you are working 60 hours a week.
Look at how Air France or BA has been turned around, please swallow some of that Italian pride and remember its not a good time to be unemployed.
So should I book my tickets to Brasil for Christmas with Alitalia or should I book with someone else?
Successive Italian governments have felt this is a good way to spend THEIR taxpayers money, and the public has been complicit. I for one applaud them for doing what they believe is right even if it breaks european union rules, surely a state has the right to spend its own money as it sees fit.
Of course there has been corruption and mis-management, this was an Italian state company, but thats the Italian publics issue no one elses, and to say it wasn't the staffs fault, of course it was. It was the fault of everyone would turned a blind eye.
HOWEVER, surely the time has come to turn off the life support, several of the unions appear to think they will come out with a better deal, 20, 10, 5 even 1 year ago they would, this time they won't. They will lose their jobs at an incredibly difficult time, and I feel sorry for them individually, but collectively. what are they playing at! The best way to get better pay and conditions is to make yourself indispensable then put the pressure on the company when they cannot do without you then you re-negotiate, the world is in a severe financial down turn, please accept what they offer then when and if Alitalia is a major player then press for better pay and conditions. Remember its in the interest of anyone buying Alitalia to get the lowest possible price and to start offering contracts on their terms alone.
Please remember to a non-aviation employee 600 hours a year or even 900 hours a year doesn't seem an awful lot when you are working 60 hours a week.
Look at how Air France or BA has been turned around, please swallow some of that Italian pride and remember its not a good time to be unemployed.
So should I book my tickets to Brasil for Christmas with Alitalia or should I book with someone else?
Not quite, chips. Whether or not Italy, or any other EU member, is a net recipient of EU funds, is immaterial. The reason why the EU has a no-subsidy policy is that it has a competition policy. You cannot have any reasonably competitive setup if some airlines (or breweries or car manufacturers, etc etc) get state aid. And there will be a tendency for airlines, or whatever, to lobby for yet more aid the minute they get into trouble. So collectively we taxpayers EU-wide end up getting screwed by indistries lobbying for our taxes to be doled out in aid. Madness, and for once the EU is perfectly sound in its argument.
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I really did not wanted to start debating that. If anyone wants better information from what Chippie Chappie is saying here, the two most relevant starting points are:
UK rebate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and
Budget of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bottom line; The UK gives 57B in six years to the EU, Italy gives 46B - that is they are BOTH NET CONTRIBUTORS.
Then, the reason why subsidies are frown upon is to promote and protect fair competition, not because EU funds are diverted creatively.
You're welcome to complain about Alitalia as much as you want, but get your facts straights before claiming Italian gov.nt is stealing from you - they aren't good enough yet to do that.
UK rebate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
and
Budget of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Bottom line; The UK gives 57B in six years to the EU, Italy gives 46B - that is they are BOTH NET CONTRIBUTORS.
Then, the reason why subsidies are frown upon is to promote and protect fair competition, not because EU funds are diverted creatively.
You're welcome to complain about Alitalia as much as you want, but get your facts straights before claiming Italian gov.nt is stealing from you - they aren't good enough yet to do that.
Last edited by el #; 19th Sep 2008 at 14:52.
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Chippie Chappie.....
Nothing to do with AZ, but have to agree with you regarding EU cash.....
My daughter lives in the UK - cigarettes about 7 per packet of which about 5 is tax, some of which ends up at the EU in Brussels...
We live in France - cigarettes about 5 per packet of which about 3 is tax, some of which ends up at the EU in Brussels...
We regularly visit Portugal - cigarettes about 3 per packet of which about 1 is tax....None of which ends up in Brussels, although the EU spends billions for the construction of a new airport at Madeira and new Autoroutes ( or whatever they're called in Portuguese ) throughout Portugal...
Don't have a doner on Portugal, we love the people and the place, so feel free to replace the word ' Portugal ' with any of the other, newer EU member states in Eastern Europe and the Med...And feel free to change the word ' cigarettes ' to just about anything else which carries the ' special ' consumption taxes which different countries apply within their domestic markets - cars in Denmark, wine in Sweden, etc, etc....
So...Why isn't the tax on cigarettes in Portugal 3 or 4 per packet and then the Portuguese Government can build and use airports / roads / or anything else the country needs using Portuguese taxpayers money rather than mine or my daughter's or your money...
And the crazy thing is that it is illegal for, as in this case, the Italian Government to provide loans / financing to an Italian company using taxes paid to it by Italian Taxpayers....But not, apparently, if the Government decides just to re-nationalise AZ and continue to provide loans / financing to cover losses made as a wholly state-owned company....
Stupid ! And absolutely typical of the idiocy and double standards that the EU is....
So AZ is losing 1.5million a day.....DHL is losing 5.5 million per day in its Express business in the USA ( see Freight Dogs Forum ) but this is financed by the German Post Office who happen to own DHL and have a monopoly on Postal Services in Germany....And Schenker Logistics is actually owned and funded by the German Government through DB ( German Railways, and obvious monopoly ) but apparently that is also legal....
It's typical EU crap and double standards - a bit like the ( unelected !! ) EU politico who is reported to have said that ' Yes, we will proceed with introduction of the Lisbon treaty - as there has been only one referendum amongst the 25 Member States where EU citizens have voted against it '.... when he should more correctly have said ' Only one of the 25 Member States has actually been allowed to have a referendum '....
IF, and a big IF, the Italian Taxpayers don't mind their taxes funding AZ's continuing losses, then I think I'd prefer to see AZ re-nationalised and handed over to someone like BA, LH or AF-KLM to manage, rather than the gangsters make yet more money through dodgy ownership and debt write-off schemes and then go through the same scenario yet again in another couple of years when yet more ' favours ' will be on offer from Berlusconi to provide yet more refinancing...
Nothing to do with AZ, but have to agree with you regarding EU cash.....
My daughter lives in the UK - cigarettes about 7 per packet of which about 5 is tax, some of which ends up at the EU in Brussels...
We live in France - cigarettes about 5 per packet of which about 3 is tax, some of which ends up at the EU in Brussels...
We regularly visit Portugal - cigarettes about 3 per packet of which about 1 is tax....None of which ends up in Brussels, although the EU spends billions for the construction of a new airport at Madeira and new Autoroutes ( or whatever they're called in Portuguese ) throughout Portugal...
Don't have a doner on Portugal, we love the people and the place, so feel free to replace the word ' Portugal ' with any of the other, newer EU member states in Eastern Europe and the Med...And feel free to change the word ' cigarettes ' to just about anything else which carries the ' special ' consumption taxes which different countries apply within their domestic markets - cars in Denmark, wine in Sweden, etc, etc....
So...Why isn't the tax on cigarettes in Portugal 3 or 4 per packet and then the Portuguese Government can build and use airports / roads / or anything else the country needs using Portuguese taxpayers money rather than mine or my daughter's or your money...
And the crazy thing is that it is illegal for, as in this case, the Italian Government to provide loans / financing to an Italian company using taxes paid to it by Italian Taxpayers....But not, apparently, if the Government decides just to re-nationalise AZ and continue to provide loans / financing to cover losses made as a wholly state-owned company....
Stupid ! And absolutely typical of the idiocy and double standards that the EU is....
So AZ is losing 1.5million a day.....DHL is losing 5.5 million per day in its Express business in the USA ( see Freight Dogs Forum ) but this is financed by the German Post Office who happen to own DHL and have a monopoly on Postal Services in Germany....And Schenker Logistics is actually owned and funded by the German Government through DB ( German Railways, and obvious monopoly ) but apparently that is also legal....
It's typical EU crap and double standards - a bit like the ( unelected !! ) EU politico who is reported to have said that ' Yes, we will proceed with introduction of the Lisbon treaty - as there has been only one referendum amongst the 25 Member States where EU citizens have voted against it '.... when he should more correctly have said ' Only one of the 25 Member States has actually been allowed to have a referendum '....
IF, and a big IF, the Italian Taxpayers don't mind their taxes funding AZ's continuing losses, then I think I'd prefer to see AZ re-nationalised and handed over to someone like BA, LH or AF-KLM to manage, rather than the gangsters make yet more money through dodgy ownership and debt write-off schemes and then go through the same scenario yet again in another couple of years when yet more ' favours ' will be on offer from Berlusconi to provide yet more refinancing...
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Oops, got my figures wrongs 
It was the £3 Billion rebate as part of the CAP that I got mixed up with. However, el #, if you read your link again, you'll find that the figures you quoted are for the period 2007-13 so perhaps we both need to re-check our fact. But thanks for the info.
By the way, I didn't say that the Italian government is stealing, just that they are breaking EU law.
Economics101 fair point. That's roughly the point I was making in my first post so thanks for adding weight to it.
Cheers,
Chips
It was the £3 Billion rebate as part of the CAP that I got mixed up with. However, el #, if you read your link again, you'll find that the figures you quoted are for the period 2007-13 so perhaps we both need to re-check our fact. But thanks for the info.By the way, I didn't say that the Italian government is stealing, just that they are breaking EU law.
Economics101 fair point. That's roughly the point I was making in my first post so thanks for adding weight to it.
Cheers,
Chips
