Alitalia (Merged)
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Who to blame?
You guys blame the unions and the employees.
This sad story is a political one created by Berlusconi.
During the spring he stopped the Air France KLM negociations.
He made foolish promises, pretending the governement would support the unions and the airline. Open your eyes guys, Berlusconi did it.
Have a look below: what happened since? Yes, the Berlusconi election.
Published: March 25, 2008
Air France-KLM has proposed taking on 180 Alitalia pilots over the next three years as part of efforts to sweeten its proposed bid for the ailing Italian airline, union officials said Tuesday night after the latest negotiations on the deal.
Air France-KLM will present a somewhat revised proposal late Thursday or Friday morning, the union officials said just after the six-hour-long meeting ended.
Air France-KLM President Jean-Cyril Spinetta confirmed during a meeting with union officials at Alitalia headquarters outside Rome that the proposal would be made by Friday, said Air France-KLM spokeswoman Veronique Brachet.
The pilots would be absorbed by Air France-KLM, an Italian pilots union official, Massimo Notaro, told Italian state TV. He called that proposal "unsatisfactory."
Other union officials said the new proposal also envisioned Air France-KLM absorbing hangar and some other ground operations at Rome's Leonardo da Vinci airport in a bid to reduce job cuts.
"A step forward has been made. The negotiation is really underway," another transport union leader, Roberto Panella, was quoted as saying by the Italian news agency Apcom.
"We're waiting for the document that Spinetta has described as friendly," Panella was also quoted as saying.
The new plan would deal with the "social consequences" of Air France-KLM's industrial plan for Alitalia in a way that "no worker would be abandoned and a solution would be designed for each of the 2100 employees concerned," Spinetta pledged in a statement.
Union officials said another meeting would be held either late Friday or Monday to discuss the new proposal.
There was no immediate comment from Alitalia. Its board was scheduled to meet on Wednesday, Italian news agencies said.
The Italian government wants to sell its 49.9 percent stake in the loss-making airline.
Alitalia's board has already accepted the Air France-KLM bid, which is valued at 747 million (US$1.1 billion). But unions have opposed it because of planned job cuts, the planned declassification of Milan's Malpensa airport as a hub and because they want a greater say in negotiations.
The deal requires their approval, as well as the approval of Italy's next government.
"We still have to work on technical details" about measures involving Alitalia personnel, Brachet told The Associated Press in Paris, adding that the meeting went well.
The ANSA and Apcom news agencies, quoting union officials, said Spinetta had explained that negotiations would entail distinct agreements with pilots, flight attendants and ground crews. Negotiations would also proceed separately for workers of two Alitalia branches, AZ Service and AZ Fly.
On Monday, Premier Romano Prodi urged unions to assume a "sense of responsibility" by considering the Air France-KLM deal, although he also said the government would be open to other offers. But he stressed that no serious alternative bids had reached the government.
Conservative leader Silvio Berlusconi has insisted other Italian offers are in the works, but he has failed to provide specifics. He has said he would veto the Air France-KLM deal if he wins April 13-14 elections.
On Tuesday, Transport Minister Alessandro Bianchi was quoted as saying that Alitalia should open its books to another potential purchaser Italian carrier Air One SpA so it can prepare a binding offer for the airline.
Air One had presented a nonbinding offer for Alitalia late last year, but the Italian government chose to enter into exclusive talks instead with Air France-KLM.
But Labor Minister Cesare Damiano urged the unions to think about Alitalia's future going into Tuesday's talks with Air France-KLM, echoing warnings by Economy Minister Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa that the company which is losing 1 million (nearly $1.6 million) a day doesn't have a lot of time.
Luigi Angeletti, leader of the UIL union, said union leaders weren't asking for outrageous concessions from Air France-KLM, saying they wanted to discuss details of the acquisition and job losses, trimmed routes and the loss of hub status for Milan's Malpensa airport.
"It seems legitimate that we be able to discuss Air France's abandonment of Malpensa so that it takes place gradually so that other companies can replace these flights," he was quoted as saying by the ANSA news agency. "We're not asking for the moon."
The Italian government had quickly agreed to the Air France-KLM deal even though its bid valued the company, at the time of the offer, at a far-lower-than-expected 139 million (US$214 million). Air France-KLM would also pay 608 million (US$946.6 million) for convertible shares.
Shares of Alitalia were suspended Tuesday for exceeding Borsa Italiana's allowed 10 percent trading band. When trading resumed briefly Tuesday morning, shares shot up as much as 35.9 percent to 0.47 (US$.72) before being again suspended.
Published: March 25, 2008
Sometimes it' s good to look back the history to understand what happened.
This sad story is a political one created by Berlusconi.
During the spring he stopped the Air France KLM negociations.
He made foolish promises, pretending the governement would support the unions and the airline. Open your eyes guys, Berlusconi did it.
Have a look below: what happened since? Yes, the Berlusconi election.
Published: March 25, 2008
Air France-KLM has proposed taking on 180 Alitalia pilots over the next three years as part of efforts to sweeten its proposed bid for the ailing Italian airline, union officials said Tuesday night after the latest negotiations on the deal.
Air France-KLM will present a somewhat revised proposal late Thursday or Friday morning, the union officials said just after the six-hour-long meeting ended.
Air France-KLM President Jean-Cyril Spinetta confirmed during a meeting with union officials at Alitalia headquarters outside Rome that the proposal would be made by Friday, said Air France-KLM spokeswoman Veronique Brachet.
The pilots would be absorbed by Air France-KLM, an Italian pilots union official, Massimo Notaro, told Italian state TV. He called that proposal "unsatisfactory."
Other union officials said the new proposal also envisioned Air France-KLM absorbing hangar and some other ground operations at Rome's Leonardo da Vinci airport in a bid to reduce job cuts.
"A step forward has been made. The negotiation is really underway," another transport union leader, Roberto Panella, was quoted as saying by the Italian news agency Apcom.
"We're waiting for the document that Spinetta has described as friendly," Panella was also quoted as saying.
The new plan would deal with the "social consequences" of Air France-KLM's industrial plan for Alitalia in a way that "no worker would be abandoned and a solution would be designed for each of the 2100 employees concerned," Spinetta pledged in a statement.
Union officials said another meeting would be held either late Friday or Monday to discuss the new proposal.
There was no immediate comment from Alitalia. Its board was scheduled to meet on Wednesday, Italian news agencies said.
The Italian government wants to sell its 49.9 percent stake in the loss-making airline.
Alitalia's board has already accepted the Air France-KLM bid, which is valued at 747 million (US$1.1 billion). But unions have opposed it because of planned job cuts, the planned declassification of Milan's Malpensa airport as a hub and because they want a greater say in negotiations.
The deal requires their approval, as well as the approval of Italy's next government.
"We still have to work on technical details" about measures involving Alitalia personnel, Brachet told The Associated Press in Paris, adding that the meeting went well.
The ANSA and Apcom news agencies, quoting union officials, said Spinetta had explained that negotiations would entail distinct agreements with pilots, flight attendants and ground crews. Negotiations would also proceed separately for workers of two Alitalia branches, AZ Service and AZ Fly.
On Monday, Premier Romano Prodi urged unions to assume a "sense of responsibility" by considering the Air France-KLM deal, although he also said the government would be open to other offers. But he stressed that no serious alternative bids had reached the government.
Conservative leader Silvio Berlusconi has insisted other Italian offers are in the works, but he has failed to provide specifics. He has said he would veto the Air France-KLM deal if he wins April 13-14 elections.
On Tuesday, Transport Minister Alessandro Bianchi was quoted as saying that Alitalia should open its books to another potential purchaser Italian carrier Air One SpA so it can prepare a binding offer for the airline.
Air One had presented a nonbinding offer for Alitalia late last year, but the Italian government chose to enter into exclusive talks instead with Air France-KLM.
But Labor Minister Cesare Damiano urged the unions to think about Alitalia's future going into Tuesday's talks with Air France-KLM, echoing warnings by Economy Minister Tommaso Padoa-Schioppa that the company which is losing 1 million (nearly $1.6 million) a day doesn't have a lot of time.
Luigi Angeletti, leader of the UIL union, said union leaders weren't asking for outrageous concessions from Air France-KLM, saying they wanted to discuss details of the acquisition and job losses, trimmed routes and the loss of hub status for Milan's Malpensa airport.
"It seems legitimate that we be able to discuss Air France's abandonment of Malpensa so that it takes place gradually so that other companies can replace these flights," he was quoted as saying by the ANSA news agency. "We're not asking for the moon."
The Italian government had quickly agreed to the Air France-KLM deal even though its bid valued the company, at the time of the offer, at a far-lower-than-expected 139 million (US$214 million). Air France-KLM would also pay 608 million (US$946.6 million) for convertible shares.
Shares of Alitalia were suspended Tuesday for exceeding Borsa Italiana's allowed 10 percent trading band. When trading resumed briefly Tuesday morning, shares shot up as much as 35.9 percent to 0.47 (US$.72) before being again suspended.
Published: March 25, 2008
Sometimes it' s good to look back the history to understand what happened.
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The thing is with you commercial pilots is that you think the world owes you a living - it dont anymore cos you aint pioneers of a new industry-- where the money is made. Number one-- lots of you have paid for training yourselves ( pretty rare mostly the state trains you although you might have a bit of debt from going to uni) and a bit daft given you are at the mercy of somebody else's decision- would that money have been better spent on setting up your own business well away from aviation? at least you succeed or fail based on your own decisions. Secondly- airlines were used as adverts for their politicians, a form of flag waving- legend carriers-(remember that BA advert in the 70'S- some poor bloke who has endured doing business in the middle east - gets on a BA aircraft and is served straight away with a cup of "English" tea by some doe eyed trolly dolly)-- more like over protected dinosaurs. get the picture you aint steely eyed pilots risking life and limb trying to get four pistons across the pond, with no atc or radio aids-- just bus drivers where the manufacturers have almost designed you out of the loop. airlines run by bean counters and share holders whose only vision aint the next exciting route but only the share price and dividend. If you dont like it get out, get a job and get a share in a C172 or for those who can actually fly without autopilots (3) FMC or auto- throttles, a DHC1 Chipmunk less stress more enjoyment but unfortunately you have to look at the ground and read a VFR ( whats that???) map to get where you want to go
and it gets worse- can see most captains on £40k max in the next few years. It has already started in the US with some co-pilots on such a low income that they qualify for state benefits, in the USA! not socialist EU.. The most pathetic thing is you lot cant even present a united front, constant bickering and infighting which the management loves. Basic tool, divide the enemy and win-- you've only got yourselves to blame
and it gets worse- can see most captains on £40k max in the next few years. It has already started in the US with some co-pilots on such a low income that they qualify for state benefits, in the USA! not socialist EU.. The most pathetic thing is you lot cant even present a united front, constant bickering and infighting which the management loves. Basic tool, divide the enemy and win-- you've only got yourselves to blame
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dope05,
You aint no dope..pretty incisive Id say.If I had to do it over,I'd rather stick needles in my eyes than be an airline pilot.Id still fly because I love the skies,but not commercially.
Returning to topic...I too was amazed that nobody had offered condolences or good luck for the future to their Italian colleagues..what awful times we live in..surely salavtion for AZ crews lies with Air One..will they integrate the 2seniority lists,and if not,will AZ crews join at the bottom or go looking for jobs abroad?
You aint no dope..pretty incisive Id say.If I had to do it over,I'd rather stick needles in my eyes than be an airline pilot.Id still fly because I love the skies,but not commercially.
Returning to topic...I too was amazed that nobody had offered condolences or good luck for the future to their Italian colleagues..what awful times we live in..surely salavtion for AZ crews lies with Air One..will they integrate the 2seniority lists,and if not,will AZ crews join at the bottom or go looking for jobs abroad?
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Sounds to me like Dope05 Didn't quite make it into comercial flying himself.. (obviously correct me if I'm wrong!!) A bit bitter and twisted...!?! I wouldn't trade this job for anything else in the world... Doing what I love the most on a very decent salary.. Yeah we probably haven't got the flying skills you needed a decade ago on those aircraft.. I'll be the first one to admit that..!! But the way aircraft are designed to operate these days you don't need those WW11 flying skills anymore.. It definately is more about managing a flightdeck than handling an aircraft.. But I can't quite see why you feel like you should have a go at all us commercial pilots like this?? I can vouch for my airline (Midsize airline, about 450 pilots) that when needed believe me we've made a united front on more than one occasion!! And as you said.. the divide and win trick.. they tried.. but failed miserably!! It's not everywhere like that before you start to tar us all with the same brush!!!
Back to the topic at hand......
Back to the topic at hand......
short flights long nights
Thread Starter
BBC just reprted that Alitalia staff have welcomed the news that the takeover offer has been withdrawn.
What are they expecting now? Operations normal? I dont think they get it.
What are they expecting now? Operations normal? I dont think they get it.
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Hey ,
Any rookies trying to get a job at this moment and being worried about this?...; don't worry, most of the Italian pilots don't speak more than a "basic" English so therefore they don't pose any threat towards getting a job somewhere where the English language proficiency is the actual requirement. They might pose more threat getting your girlfriend ,but that is another story
)
There will be quite a few thousand hours jet time highly qualified pilots looking for work soon...so? I think their main destination is going to be the "most understanding market" Spain,France and maybe Portugal. Saying "understanding" meaning being language proficient at this point speaking Latin language and probably understanding the similar vibe of S Europe.
No offence whatsoever, but they are known un-officially, as the "worst" communicating pilots together with French and Russians in the Central European airspace.Just a side thought.Feedback from a friend who is an ATC supervisor somwhere in EU.
My sympathy is with the pilots, but none with the management!Life sucks,but we are here to deal with it.
Any rookies trying to get a job at this moment and being worried about this?...; don't worry, most of the Italian pilots don't speak more than a "basic" English so therefore they don't pose any threat towards getting a job somewhere where the English language proficiency is the actual requirement. They might pose more threat getting your girlfriend ,but that is another story
)There will be quite a few thousand hours jet time highly qualified pilots looking for work soon...so? I think their main destination is going to be the "most understanding market" Spain,France and maybe Portugal. Saying "understanding" meaning being language proficient at this point speaking Latin language and probably understanding the similar vibe of S Europe.
No offence whatsoever, but they are known un-officially, as the "worst" communicating pilots together with French and Russians in the Central European airspace.Just a side thought.Feedback from a friend who is an ATC supervisor somwhere in EU.
My sympathy is with the pilots, but none with the management!Life sucks,but we are here to deal with it.
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I really dont think that the employees of AZ understands that they are in serious trouble... 
They have always been saved by Silvio (the gov) so of course they think they will be saved again at the same time not having to make anyone redundant. That is so silly.
Last time that AZ actually made money was when KLM payed almost £1 billion to break an agreement. This is in the year 2002 I think. Every since they have been losing money; today they lose £1,5 million a day. AZ has announced that they will start the negotiations for bankruptcy but still the airline flies- with no cash money at all. So funny.
I cant understand how AZ said no to CAI; they would have merged AZ with Air One and that with lots of money. But when the unions says no to that, CAI cant do anything more than to withdraw the offer. So now they stand alone, and thinking AZ will operate as normal forever. Thanks to mr Silvio. Pathetic.
They have always been saved by Silvio (the gov) so of course they think they will be saved again at the same time not having to make anyone redundant. That is so silly.
Last time that AZ actually made money was when KLM payed almost £1 billion to break an agreement. This is in the year 2002 I think. Every since they have been losing money; today they lose £1,5 million a day. AZ has announced that they will start the negotiations for bankruptcy but still the airline flies- with no cash money at all. So funny.
I cant understand how AZ said no to CAI; they would have merged AZ with Air One and that with lots of money. But when the unions says no to that, CAI cant do anything more than to withdraw the offer. So now they stand alone, and thinking AZ will operate as normal forever. Thanks to mr Silvio. Pathetic.
Last edited by Viking101; 19th Sep 2008 at 04:03.
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So how long can it last???
How much is in the bank? I guess in Italy they could probably survive longer, but what about other international airports, surely they will want cash up front for fees?
I think on another thread it mentioned how much XL (tiny in comparison) owed in MAN.
Feel sorry for the crews, hope they get paid at the end of the month
How much is in the bank? I guess in Italy they could probably survive longer, but what about other international airports, surely they will want cash up front for fees?
I think on another thread it mentioned how much XL (tiny in comparison) owed in MAN.
Feel sorry for the crews, hope they get paid at the end of the month
short flights long nights
Thread Starter
Thats what I was wondering F14. In Italy, providers can be "ordered" to provide the required support.
But surely at outstations, people will want money for fuel,catering,landing fees and such.
I dont think it can go on much longer..........................
But surely at outstations, people will want money for fuel,catering,landing fees and such.
I dont think it can go on much longer..........................
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There will be quite a few thousand hours jet time highly qualified pilots looking for work soon...so? I think their main destination is going to be the "most understanding market" Spain,France and maybe Portugal. Saying "understanding" meaning being language proficient at this point speaking Latin language and probably understanding the similar vibe of S Europe.
From what I know, the companies that hire more pilots from different countries are Ryanair, Easyjet and NetJets (although the latter has a Portuguese AOC). And these aren't exactly from S Europe.
From what I know, AZ pilots are as professional as the XL pilots, but from the different threads, I don't see the same sympathy for both. Probably both will be looking for a job, so I wish them both good luck.
Check Six Krueger....
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so Now Airfrance will re-enter in the busienss with less money and perhaps more layoffs. You get what you deserve not only what you are able to negotiate. If you can read italian there is a forum here and it is a pain to read the comments in "Grazie piloti" ..
sorry I forgot: Cathay! please please buy Alitalia we will help and made the best airline of the 2 continents. Please!
cheers
sorry I forgot: Cathay! please please buy Alitalia we will help and made the best airline of the 2 continents. Please!
cheers
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Yeah, pretty strange, no one wishes them luck for this difficult time,
maybe there is a reason for that. From my point, they are using my tax money, that should be enough so far.
And BTW there is absolutly no loyalty from the AZ pilots towards the AirOne staff and all should be in one company soon. What ever they would achive for their staff will be cut on the AirOne side. Maybe an other reason.
maybe there is a reason for that. From my point, they are using my tax money, that should be enough so far.
And BTW there is absolutly no loyalty from the AZ pilots towards the AirOne staff and all should be in one company soon. What ever they would achive for their staff will be cut on the AirOne side. Maybe an other reason.
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Zagorfly
I guess you're only kidding about CX buying Alitalia. You remember when Cathay managed PAL for a short while? Surely one foray into a corrupt country is enough.
And EAM, no-one is saying there's anything GOOD about AZ. If even its supporters have nothing good to say, how can it survive?
And EAM, no-one is saying there's anything GOOD about AZ. If even its supporters have nothing good to say, how can it survive?
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incredible......
Dear colleagues,
I have to say that I am very surprised about what other PILOTS say about what is happening to our fellow alitalian colleagues.
All of you criticized them because alitalia did not make any money in the last 20 years. Do you really think that pilots are responsible for this??????
I have many friends working for Alitalia and in these days they were very worried about their future. They know that this time is really a big disaster but they were also aware of what kind of contract they were offered!!!
All of you have been ready to tease them and again criticize them but did any of you read the new contract?????
Just as a sample they were offered a contract stating that they had the right to have only one and I say again ONE day off a month out of 8 that was granted.
All the other 7 could have been removed or changed by crew control.
And dear Skydrol Leak just to let you know our English maybe is very basic but at least we are able to speak one extra language........or at least we try.....
I work in a company full of English mother tongue pilots and I can tell you that it is very funny to hear most of them speaking English....... The reason is because they are so limited in their mind that they think that their English (in this company there are at least 6 different English) is THE English.
Anyway this is a forum and everybody has to be free to say whatever he wants and feels but please, before judging try to gather more infos about what is happening.
Anyway I give my maximum support and sympathy to my friends in Alitalia and i really wish them all the best that they can get for them and for their family.
Flare
I have to say that I am very surprised about what other PILOTS say about what is happening to our fellow alitalian colleagues.
All of you criticized them because alitalia did not make any money in the last 20 years. Do you really think that pilots are responsible for this??????
I have many friends working for Alitalia and in these days they were very worried about their future. They know that this time is really a big disaster but they were also aware of what kind of contract they were offered!!!
All of you have been ready to tease them and again criticize them but did any of you read the new contract?????
Just as a sample they were offered a contract stating that they had the right to have only one and I say again ONE day off a month out of 8 that was granted.
All the other 7 could have been removed or changed by crew control.
And dear Skydrol Leak just to let you know our English maybe is very basic but at least we are able to speak one extra language........or at least we try.....
I work in a company full of English mother tongue pilots and I can tell you that it is very funny to hear most of them speaking English....... The reason is because they are so limited in their mind that they think that their English (in this company there are at least 6 different English) is THE English.
Anyway this is a forum and everybody has to be free to say whatever he wants and feels but please, before judging try to gather more infos about what is happening.
Anyway I give my maximum support and sympathy to my friends in Alitalia and i really wish them all the best that they can get for them and for their family.
Flare
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For sure Alitalia made money all those years - it's just not in the company. Others have it. 
The politicians know that - and this is the only reason the game still continues.
There are way too many "friends" involved to just close it down.
The politicians know that - and this is the only reason the game still continues.
There are way too many "friends" involved to just close it down.
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Interesting article on Alitalia - it's in French but if your French is not up to it, Google Translate will do a reasonable job. Not sure if it is entirely accurate but it gives some pointers to where the out-of-control costs were.