LEEDS - 4
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The airport management will inevitably be looking at beefing up the connectivity from LBA into the international route network given a) it's not great and b) it's therefore a big factor behind leakage to MAN. Keeping what you have is generally always easier than winning new business (see the "Lufthansa" post above to see that) but whether there is a way of working with bmi to improve the marketing of connections through LHR in a way which isn't a waste of time for all concerned is a big question. Much would depend I suppose on how much the LHR experience itself was a barrier to building traffic on the route. The reality is, for connections going East, the Middle Eastern carriers are much more aggressive and have a product in the UK regions which is entirely geared towards interlining. Some might take the view that as an alternative to throwing money at maintaining the LHR link, trying to line up EK or similar might be a better play - especially now that a proven relationship is in place. Get something going into the NYC area and beef up the KLM/AF services for the mid-haul stuff and you start to have something decent to market to the locals.
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BMI have pretty much got the airport where they want them here.
If LBA agrees to lower the charges then the route will probably survive a little longer.
If LBA play "hardball" then BMI walk away and say "we tried but LBA didn't want to know".
Ultimately it's about the most profitable use of that most scarce of resources - LHR slots - and if BMI think they can use them more profitably elsewhere then it's game over for LBA-LHR.
As Spanish Flea stated here (& I said similarly on BLK thread earlier!) the shorter air routes to London are increasingly under threat from a superior frequency of train services. Outside of MAN I doubt they will last until 2020 if / when the 3rd runway appears at LHR.
However, there are bound to be other markets that will open up over the next few years - one door closes, another one opens!!
If LBA agrees to lower the charges then the route will probably survive a little longer.
If LBA play "hardball" then BMI walk away and say "we tried but LBA didn't want to know".
Ultimately it's about the most profitable use of that most scarce of resources - LHR slots - and if BMI think they can use them more profitably elsewhere then it's game over for LBA-LHR.
As Spanish Flea stated here (& I said similarly on BLK thread earlier!) the shorter air routes to London are increasingly under threat from a superior frequency of train services. Outside of MAN I doubt they will last until 2020 if / when the 3rd runway appears at LHR.
However, there are bound to be other markets that will open up over the next few years - one door closes, another one opens!!
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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The only market that should open up for Yeadon Airport is its use as building land! Did someone mention NYC? Dream on. As airports go, the place is an absolute nightmare. Awful runway, awful terminal, awful terrain, awful location, awful weather. Arport extension extremely limited. The runway needs major repair- it has to be the roughest in the UK. Terminal buildings tatty and ready for conversion to a new Tescos/storage warehouse. The terrain around is a hazard to aviation, the terrain around the runway will kill people like Congonhas, and it is a anordeal getting to this place from the motorway system!
Why exactly are we keeping this dinosaur alive...and who for? It is that quaint English habit of keeping steam engines going long past their useful lives, and reviving long dead piers. There are ex RAF airfields that could serve the purpose, and frankly aren't built in such cramped conditions. There is no place for this airport here. Rather than stumble on with inadequate, piecemeal development, why can't the cities settle on a new location, without the 'but it must be between Leeds and Bradford!'
It is quite probably the worst airport in the UK. Awful. History or not, it should be taken outside and hit on the back of the neck!
Why exactly are we keeping this dinosaur alive...and who for? It is that quaint English habit of keeping steam engines going long past their useful lives, and reviving long dead piers. There are ex RAF airfields that could serve the purpose, and frankly aren't built in such cramped conditions. There is no place for this airport here. Rather than stumble on with inadequate, piecemeal development, why can't the cities settle on a new location, without the 'but it must be between Leeds and Bradford!'
It is quite probably the worst airport in the UK. Awful. History or not, it should be taken outside and hit on the back of the neck!
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Ah yes Rainboe,
All what you say is probably correct.
Alas, people create airports and not big flat long willies.
It is very difficult to lead sheep to greener pastures away from home.
By the way, did you once reside in Menston?
All what you say is probably correct.
Alas, people create airports and not big flat long willies.
It is very difficult to lead sheep to greener pastures away from home.
By the way, did you once reside in Menston?
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Rainboe - these were your own words when a mere mortal dared to comment on flight deck issues last week.
"Fine if people like you in these sections stuck to 'reading' but far too many people with limited knowledge are involving themselves in discourse way beyond their comprehension or knowledge, without letting on"
Anyone else got the words "kettle" and "pot" forming? Unless you are claiming expertise in flying air transport aircraft, private equity deal structures and investment vehicles, airport management and last but not least route planning and demand/yield management. All this and still time to be serial poster on PPrune. Where do you find the time?
"Fine if people like you in these sections stuck to 'reading' but far too many people with limited knowledge are involving themselves in discourse way beyond their comprehension or knowledge, without letting on"
Anyone else got the words "kettle" and "pot" forming? Unless you are claiming expertise in flying air transport aircraft, private equity deal structures and investment vehicles, airport management and last but not least route planning and demand/yield management. All this and still time to be serial poster on PPrune. Where do you find the time?
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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I resided in Calverley. I was based for about 4 months flying out of Leeds last year in Boeing 737s. I have flown for 36 years. I know my air transport. I know a pig in a poke. What number of postings I make are of no interest, it's a deflection away from the subject being discussed of what a lunatic airport this is, hard to get to, unpleasant to land at, and so far past its sell by date it's not true. Boring it may be, but as a taxpayer, I really do not want any of my money thrown at an insurmountable problem because of local vested interests.
The sooner we all admit that we would be beter off starting elsewhere, the happier and safer I'll feel, because this place is nasty and unpleasant, perched on top of a hill, subject to crosswinds and low cloud. It's anti-social with an approach over the city centre, it's got a runway that is a joke, public transport is a joke, it's badly located. Does it have anything to recommend it? Not a thing. You may not like the message, but no amount of talking the place up will make it acceptable for anything larger than a 737. Even 757 ops are frankly pushing it, and as for Tristar.......
The sooner we all admit that we would be beter off starting elsewhere, the happier and safer I'll feel, because this place is nasty and unpleasant, perched on top of a hill, subject to crosswinds and low cloud. It's anti-social with an approach over the city centre, it's got a runway that is a joke, public transport is a joke, it's badly located. Does it have anything to recommend it? Not a thing. You may not like the message, but no amount of talking the place up will make it acceptable for anything larger than a 737. Even 757 ops are frankly pushing it, and as for Tristar.......
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Rainboe, where in your expert opinion do you suggest the airport be relocated - taking into account the need to serve the core Leeds City Region catchment area, local terrain, local politics, environmental consideration; and ultimately how would you achieve funding of said project?
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Disgusted of Tunbridge
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I thought somewhere near the M1/M62 intersection was a near ideal, reasonably flat location, and undeveloped, and more useable by the large south Leeds/Barnsly area. But there are a few ex RAF airfields around, I'm not sure how suitable to develop. As for funding, if the money can't be raised privately, no airport. No taxpayers money, period. If the region can't support its own airport, then MAN and DSA should do, and rapid public transport links set up instead. I just think it better to admit somewhere is a mistake rather than press on ad infinitum fiddling to try and keep an unsatisfactory arrangement going.
We have this situation ongoing in Hampshire. The government is closing a wonderful military hospital (Haslar, Gosport) for financial reasons, just as we are embroiled in a 2 wars with numerous seriously wounded military personnel. A marvellous hospital in a terrific location for our servicemen, for financial reasons. they are being consigned to NHS Hospitals where their needs are not addressed and they are open to verbal attack by hostile people. If good things are to get the chop, then Yeadon Airport must stand or fall on how good it is, and if we all looked at it critically and honestly, how can we not shudder?
We have this situation ongoing in Hampshire. The government is closing a wonderful military hospital (Haslar, Gosport) for financial reasons, just as we are embroiled in a 2 wars with numerous seriously wounded military personnel. A marvellous hospital in a terrific location for our servicemen, for financial reasons. they are being consigned to NHS Hospitals where their needs are not addressed and they are open to verbal attack by hostile people. If good things are to get the chop, then Yeadon Airport must stand or fall on how good it is, and if we all looked at it critically and honestly, how can we not shudder?
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But you miss the point. There is no flat land near the M1/M62 interchange. Flat land is all to the east of the region. The RAF airfields are all in the east/north east, far away from any core catchment area.
Whilst I do not disagree that LBA is in the wrong position for all the reasons you give - it is however nothing that nobody already knows, but as one of the largest GDP producers in the country, Leeds can sustain its own airport, it should not need to depend on MAN as its local airport, and DSA is at the wrong side of the Yorkshire and Humber economic region anyway. LBA does handle 3m pax a year, it is a profitable going concern, with proven sustainable growth, it provides air transport into the Leeds City Region, so much so it was purchased by a private equity company as an investment opportunity. LBA's issues in the main come from poor decisions in the 60's, and a lack of continued investment, nevertheless, that investment is now being unlocked, with careful attention, a number of current issues can be quashed. LBA will never be perfect, many parallels can be drawn to Bristol Lulsgate, which with careful investment has shown potential to be a fine asset to the SW region. I fail to see the parallel with your hospital in Hampshire -where does this impact the growth of that economic region? I feel your comments are valid, not anything new, but your argument is only one sided and is viewed from a broad brush perspective with a lack of local knowledge..
Whilst I do not disagree that LBA is in the wrong position for all the reasons you give - it is however nothing that nobody already knows, but as one of the largest GDP producers in the country, Leeds can sustain its own airport, it should not need to depend on MAN as its local airport, and DSA is at the wrong side of the Yorkshire and Humber economic region anyway. LBA does handle 3m pax a year, it is a profitable going concern, with proven sustainable growth, it provides air transport into the Leeds City Region, so much so it was purchased by a private equity company as an investment opportunity. LBA's issues in the main come from poor decisions in the 60's, and a lack of continued investment, nevertheless, that investment is now being unlocked, with careful attention, a number of current issues can be quashed. LBA will never be perfect, many parallels can be drawn to Bristol Lulsgate, which with careful investment has shown potential to be a fine asset to the SW region. I fail to see the parallel with your hospital in Hampshire -where does this impact the growth of that economic region? I feel your comments are valid, not anything new, but your argument is only one sided and is viewed from a broad brush perspective with a lack of local knowledge..
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A300boy
Cannot disagree with Rainboe but of course I can draw different conclusions !
I choose to live in Yeadon as I can get to my operational base easily using Lba flights as and when I need them, however I normally use company flights from another regional airport. The debate about the various problems are old hat now and it is hardly news that crew do not like the Lba. That said we can improve the runway surface increase the length and improve the navigational and landing aids.What we cannot fix is the wind direction on our windy days but hey if its not within limits ! divert its no problem and a bus journey is better than an accident. We can make the most of what we have and even though the airport is built on a hill so is Luton which handles around 12 million passengers a year, Crew or at least the ones I know dont like that airfield either but it continues to grow.
I choose to live in Yeadon as I can get to my operational base easily using Lba flights as and when I need them, however I normally use company flights from another regional airport. The debate about the various problems are old hat now and it is hardly news that crew do not like the Lba. That said we can improve the runway surface increase the length and improve the navigational and landing aids.What we cannot fix is the wind direction on our windy days but hey if its not within limits ! divert its no problem and a bus journey is better than an accident. We can make the most of what we have and even though the airport is built on a hill so is Luton which handles around 12 million passengers a year, Crew or at least the ones I know dont like that airfield either but it continues to grow.
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"Awful runway, awful terminal, awful terrain, awful location, awful weather. Arport extension extremely limited. The runway needs major repair- it has to be the roughest in the UK. Terminal buildings tatty and ready for conversion to a new Tescos/storage warehouse. The terrain around is a hazard to aviation, the terrain around the runway will kill people like Congonhas, and it is a anordeal getting to this place from the motorway system!"
but still worth £145,000,000 as an airport....those crazy fools at bridgepoint clearly didn't consult you
but still worth £145,000,000 as an airport....those crazy fools at bridgepoint clearly didn't consult you
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as arrogant as he is, Rainboe makes some valid points.
But look at it this way:
There are 20 teams in the premiership and the same 3 teams keep taking it in turns winning it every year.
Do the other 17 think, sack that then, we may as build a Lidl on the pitch instead?
LBA is far from perfect but the new owners have not had chance to make their mark yet.
If planning is granted and the devolpment proceeds then more cash will be generated to fund other shortfalls.
John Parkin does appear to have a good record at turning airports around although his hands may be tied by the banks and the £145m they laid out for an airport with many failings.
It amazes me how much money can be found from the taxpayer for any transport scheme in London but when it comes to Leeds the funds aren't there.
A lot of time and money was wasted with the failed supertram cock up.
Hopefully the tramtrain will improve links from city centres to the airport.
For now though people are still showing they are more than willing to take the journey to LBA for their week of full engish breakfasts and pints of ale abroad.
But look at it this way:
There are 20 teams in the premiership and the same 3 teams keep taking it in turns winning it every year.
Do the other 17 think, sack that then, we may as build a Lidl on the pitch instead?
LBA is far from perfect but the new owners have not had chance to make their mark yet.
If planning is granted and the devolpment proceeds then more cash will be generated to fund other shortfalls.
John Parkin does appear to have a good record at turning airports around although his hands may be tied by the banks and the £145m they laid out for an airport with many failings.
It amazes me how much money can be found from the taxpayer for any transport scheme in London but when it comes to Leeds the funds aren't there.
A lot of time and money was wasted with the failed supertram cock up.
Hopefully the tramtrain will improve links from city centres to the airport.
For now though people are still showing they are more than willing to take the journey to LBA for their week of full engish breakfasts and pints of ale abroad.
And that is all LBA will be good for, regional and near europe package destinations for the locals.
Have to agree that transport connections to LBA are dreadfull and that with the limited runway and infrastructure, dreams of flights to the States or Middle East is all they will remain.
So many better airorts around, Manchester, Doncaster even stretching to Newcastle and East Mids.
Have to agree that transport connections to LBA are dreadfull and that with the limited runway and infrastructure, dreams of flights to the States or Middle East is all they will remain.
So many better airorts around, Manchester, Doncaster even stretching to Newcastle and East Mids.
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As airports go, the place is an absolute nightmare. Awful runway, awful terminal, awful terrain, awful location, awful weather. Arport extension extremely limited. The runway needs major repair- it has to be the roughest in the UK. Terminal buildings tatty and ready for conversion to a new Tescos/storage warehouse. The terrain around is a hazard to aviation, the terrain around the runway will kill people like Congonhas, and it is a anordeal getting to this place from the motorway system!
Good job that there hasn't been an airline thats decided to base itself and its HQ there .................................. ooops!!!!
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A300boy
The "nevers" about Leeds Airport have been around since the 60s when I began my aviation career there, but most of them have been proved wrong and I would bet we achieve a limited long haul program in the near future if not I will retire when I reach 65 buy the Airport and operate them myself !
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Good job that there hasn't been an airline thats decided to base itself and its HQ there .................................. ooops!!!!
I fully agree that there are issues at LBA; but with careful [private equity] investment some of these limitations can be put right - without any UK taxpayer being harmed!
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A300boy
Also as pointed out earlier if we had a fraction of the investment put into northern airfields as has been put into the London area airfields and transport system Rainboe would be singing our local airports praises ! Isnt Hampshire near London ?
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Complete utter rubbish Rainboe. Was that a copy and paste job from one of your posts last year. The record it getting tired and I'm getting tired of hearing the same old tune. Why do you spend so much time on the Leeds thread when you hate the place with a passion.
LBA is a success and will remain a success. I cannot dispute the downfalls that many here have pointed out but some are factually incorrect. One for example is LBA can handle direct flights to the US and the Middle East. Once the *terminal* infrastructure is in place then we will see these sort of destinations coming on stream. These things don't happen over night.
One last thing. Does anybody have the bad weather stats handy? I noticed it was windy last night, how may aircraft diverted?
LBA is a success and will remain a success. I cannot dispute the downfalls that many here have pointed out but some are factually incorrect. One for example is LBA can handle direct flights to the US and the Middle East. Once the *terminal* infrastructure is in place then we will see these sort of destinations coming on stream. These things don't happen over night.
One last thing. Does anybody have the bad weather stats handy? I noticed it was windy last night, how may aircraft diverted?