BIRMINGHAM - 4
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Location: Coventry
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Invicta,
I am only proposing it as a suggestion, and I don't think it is any more fanciful than the existing proposal for the runway extension, but let's see how it plays out, and whether or not it actually gets built. Let's not mention the 2nd runway.
Joining the two terminals seems to make a lot of sense, but what then happens beyond that? Who knows what growth / contraction scenarios we might see in 5-10 years time? In particular, if BHX does want to bring in a more business oriented market, will they want to send FR packing again, or do they want to keep that business regardless? A Ryanair (passenger as opposed to the maintenance mentioned) 'hangar' on the current site might serve this, but would that be the best use of space? Would it be better to build more multi-storey car parks at BHX, or cheaper to use existing car parks at CVT, if they had that option, and they could offer one of their airlines a deal to move there?
I'm just throwing up BHX v CVT for debate - they might not find a buyer, in which case it is no problem for BHX, or they might find a buyer who can do something with it. As we've discussed on the CVT thread, I don't see an obvious airline for CVT at present, and there are obvious reasons why major airport players like MAPLC, Peel etc would also be uninterested in CVT, but let's see. Let's say a buyer did come along, and made Easy a deal to tempt them away from EMA - would BHX be pleased with that? I doubt it?
And whatever happens with CVT, I'm still trying to work out which extra destinations that runway extension is really going to bring?
Am I missing something here? Coventry would need a runway extension of 600m just to match BHX at the moment. How can turning CVT into a longhaul airport be less expensive than extending the BHX runway by 400m? Then there's the matter of a terminal building, full length taxiways etc etc.
Because the BHX extension needs some major tunnelling work so the A45 can pass under. I think we're on £120m at the moment, who knows how far that could rise, as Giddy says. I don't know if we have any Michael Scofields on the forum, but I think it is fair to say that the tunnel will take up the lion's share of the budget. My guess is that, on the other hand, the whole CVT site lease could be purchased for a fraction of the above cost.I am only proposing it as a suggestion, and I don't think it is any more fanciful than the existing proposal for the runway extension, but let's see how it plays out, and whether or not it actually gets built. Let's not mention the 2nd runway.
Joining the two terminals seems to make a lot of sense, but what then happens beyond that? Who knows what growth / contraction scenarios we might see in 5-10 years time? In particular, if BHX does want to bring in a more business oriented market, will they want to send FR packing again, or do they want to keep that business regardless? A Ryanair (passenger as opposed to the maintenance mentioned) 'hangar' on the current site might serve this, but would that be the best use of space? Would it be better to build more multi-storey car parks at BHX, or cheaper to use existing car parks at CVT, if they had that option, and they could offer one of their airlines a deal to move there?
I'm just throwing up BHX v CVT for debate - they might not find a buyer, in which case it is no problem for BHX, or they might find a buyer who can do something with it. As we've discussed on the CVT thread, I don't see an obvious airline for CVT at present, and there are obvious reasons why major airport players like MAPLC, Peel etc would also be uninterested in CVT, but let's see. Let's say a buyer did come along, and made Easy a deal to tempt them away from EMA - would BHX be pleased with that? I doubt it?
And whatever happens with CVT, I'm still trying to work out which extra destinations that runway extension is really going to bring?
Join Date: Nov 2003
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The runway extension would certainly allow the TOM BHX-CUN flight to go direct, and allow other charter airline flights to go direct in all conditions.
However, what other long haul flights a runway extension would bring is a good question. Probably not many. There would probably be some more TOM/TCX stuff, but then the long haul that these charter operators operate from EMA/MAN etc etc could be compromised so it's not definately going to happen.
I believe BHX already has a fairly substantial long haul programme. Would a longer runway bring significantly more? Or would it just make it easier for the operators already based to operate easier and therefore potentially offer a small increase in destinations?
However, what other long haul flights a runway extension would bring is a good question. Probably not many. There would probably be some more TOM/TCX stuff, but then the long haul that these charter operators operate from EMA/MAN etc etc could be compromised so it's not definately going to happen.
I believe BHX already has a fairly substantial long haul programme. Would a longer runway bring significantly more? Or would it just make it easier for the operators already based to operate easier and therefore potentially offer a small increase in destinations?
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The Police helicopter will get a hangar further along from it's present position. The Apron area is being expanded to include the area at the end of Lima. (Where the Twin Jet is parked).
I think that Ryan want to use the space to park up their winter aircraft while they rotate them.
Also in the plans for the West side is an engine run facility.Which will of course be handy for the engineering sections.
Why did they choose Brum....Some good Horse Trading I imagine.....
Stand Allocation
Purely out of interest, who is responsible for allocating stands at BHX and more specifically how is this decided? Obviously I appreciate that certain stands are size restricted etc., but that´s not my meaning. I ask this simply because I have arrived the past three Monday evenings (i.e. same day of the week), on the same flight, with the same type of a/c, at the same time (give or take a few minutes); and each time we were parked on a different stand - even a remote stand on the one occasion. So why a terminal stand on two occasions and a remote on an other?
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TOM BHX-CUN flight to go direct
I remember watching DC8s use every last foot of runway when I was at school.....
Join Date: Aug 2007
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At the moment Avman, Apron Control (BIA ltd) allocate Stands for aircraft. Apron Control is that tower looking thing between the old international pier and new one adjacent Stand 55. This will change as and when the new "Project Blue" centralised Control Room comes on line.
There are quite a few ATM's at BHX now with limited stands due to WIP. You were lucky to get a terminal stand twice!!!
Stand allocation is programmed into the "FIDS" system the night before the following day operations begin, both T1 and T2. Unfortunately, aircraft go tech dumping Jet A1 or hydraulic fluid, aircraft come early, go late. Stands / Airbridges go tech, Fire Alarms actuate. This will then affect this prior planned stand allocation programme. Apron Controllers will then have to look for alternative stands depending on what they have at the time.
Hope that answers your question.
There are quite a few ATM's at BHX now with limited stands due to WIP. You were lucky to get a terminal stand twice!!!
Stand allocation is programmed into the "FIDS" system the night before the following day operations begin, both T1 and T2. Unfortunately, aircraft go tech dumping Jet A1 or hydraulic fluid, aircraft come early, go late. Stands / Airbridges go tech, Fire Alarms actuate. This will then affect this prior planned stand allocation programme. Apron Controllers will then have to look for alternative stands depending on what they have at the time.
Hope that answers your question.
Grundyhead, thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. I do understand the various constraints and all the WIP at BHX. It was just that the evening we got the remote stand there were plenty of appropriate terminal stands free (including those usually occupied by my particular flight), so I was kinda curious as to why the remote. I guess the answer is that available stands (for that a/c type) are allocated randomly rather than by conforming to any basic standardisation.
Baron Buzz,
You make a very valid point with regard to how much new longhaul traffic the runway extension might attract; and I think in the short to medium term, actually not a great deal.
Looking at Manchester, the extra length is mainly of benefit to cargo operators - and BHX positively seems to hate cargo!! As far as long haul scheduled passengers operations are concerned, there's still next to nothing the the much vaunted US west coast - and a few charters to Vancouver.
Then take Cardiff - millions spent on a runway extension - for what? BA positioning flights to and from their maintenance base.
EMA has benfitted, but again, almost exclusively in the cargo domain.
The main area in which BHX will benefit from the extension, that I very much hope will now go ahead, is the capability of major existing carriers such as Emirates and Continental (hopefully eventually with appropriate equipment) to uplift meaningful bellyhold cargo loads, and thus give them more reasons to stay at BHX.
You make a very valid point with regard to how much new longhaul traffic the runway extension might attract; and I think in the short to medium term, actually not a great deal.
Looking at Manchester, the extra length is mainly of benefit to cargo operators - and BHX positively seems to hate cargo!! As far as long haul scheduled passengers operations are concerned, there's still next to nothing the the much vaunted US west coast - and a few charters to Vancouver.
Then take Cardiff - millions spent on a runway extension - for what? BA positioning flights to and from their maintenance base.
EMA has benfitted, but again, almost exclusively in the cargo domain.
The main area in which BHX will benefit from the extension, that I very much hope will now go ahead, is the capability of major existing carriers such as Emirates and Continental (hopefully eventually with appropriate equipment) to uplift meaningful bellyhold cargo loads, and thus give them more reasons to stay at BHX.
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BHX Long Haul
The latest trends in air travel (prior to this worldwide recession) was thinner point-to-point routes hence Boeings decision to develop the 787 programme. People don't want to travel to large, impersonal and often chaotic hub airports.
Birmingham Airport underserves its regions population with many of the regions passengers travelling to London or Manchester.
Manchester probably has more passengers and routes than the regions population would otherwise support and because of the lack of routes from the Midlands, the Northeast and Southern Scotland people have to travel to Manchester.
Birmingham does not have much in the way of freight service, this is due to night flying restrictions and noise abatement, not the airports lack of desire to accommodate such services. East Midlands is an ideal airport to accommodate the regions freight flying during the night. It is in a relatively lightly populated area with lots of space to build hangers and aprons etc.
As stated before the runway length will allow existing carriers to utilise larger more comfortable long-haul aircraft and then routes would then be truly a viable alternative to London. Carriers that previously operated to Birmingham but had problems with load restrictions such as AA. Their Chicago operation of 767 equipment may be able to return. Thomas Cook although operating a large short haul operation at BHX are unable to fly long haul due to weight restrictions on their A330 equipment. Birmingham has only one flight per week to Orlando and only two to Toronto again midlands travelers are again forced to journey to London or Manchester.
This runway extension will enable airlines to compete in a level playing field with other main UK hubs and may mean the difference between an airline being able to introduce new, profitable services or failure of a route.
Daza
Birmingham Airport underserves its regions population with many of the regions passengers travelling to London or Manchester.
Manchester probably has more passengers and routes than the regions population would otherwise support and because of the lack of routes from the Midlands, the Northeast and Southern Scotland people have to travel to Manchester.
Birmingham does not have much in the way of freight service, this is due to night flying restrictions and noise abatement, not the airports lack of desire to accommodate such services. East Midlands is an ideal airport to accommodate the regions freight flying during the night. It is in a relatively lightly populated area with lots of space to build hangers and aprons etc.
As stated before the runway length will allow existing carriers to utilise larger more comfortable long-haul aircraft and then routes would then be truly a viable alternative to London. Carriers that previously operated to Birmingham but had problems with load restrictions such as AA. Their Chicago operation of 767 equipment may be able to return. Thomas Cook although operating a large short haul operation at BHX are unable to fly long haul due to weight restrictions on their A330 equipment. Birmingham has only one flight per week to Orlando and only two to Toronto again midlands travelers are again forced to journey to London or Manchester.
This runway extension will enable airlines to compete in a level playing field with other main UK hubs and may mean the difference between an airline being able to introduce new, profitable services or failure of a route.
Daza
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remote parking
Avman/grundyhead
Avman
I arrived on the 21.30 flybe EDI flight (195) on a Wednesday night
in April and we parked on the 20's despite the whole on T2 parking
was empty except for a parked 145 which had not flown that day.
The only other nightstopper in was the Frankfurt which was also
on the 20's. It was just so strange, 21.05 (very early) and not an
aircraft in sight on T2 but we had to get a bus to the terminal.
The 195 in question was not flying until the next morning on the
9.40 Milan and I thought it was parked remote as they could
not be bothered to park it on an airbridge and push it to remote
later. I e-mailed flybe and got pretty much the same answer
that grundyhead gave with an added note that my comments
will passed to the appropriate department and thank you for
the feedback.
There was little problem as the bus was waiting and we were
at arrivals within a blink of an eye.
On the way out in the morning the flight was subbed from a
Q400 to 195 (not last minute) and again stand 16 was free but
we were left on a bus standing for 20 minutes (minor tech
problem) waiting to go to the 20's. The bus was packed and
the pax (virtually all business except for me and a couple others)
were getting impatient.
To be fair in the morning it is busy and there would be little
time for towing aircraft back and forward from stand to stand
but when things go wrong and you leave pax on a bus it does
not give a great impression. There were a few T2 stands free
at the time but only one gate free and that was 16 (could
have been out of use but didn't look it). I assume in this
instance there was no alternative and the minor tech problem
through a spanner in the works.
It was the night arrival which seemed odd and remember no
KLM or AF are parked on T2 now. It just seemed an odd use
of facilities let alone the fuel the buses use etc but that is
another story.
Runway extension
As mentioned before TOM would gain immediately with the
Cancun, a few years ago I would have said Delta to Atlanta
was a good bet plus charters to Vagas and Vancouver.
However 10 years ago if you said we would have double
daily EK 77W's (from June) I would have been calling for
the men in white coats!
SOE - The Cancun has always made a tech stop at
Manchester or Shannon, so I assume a no-go for direct.
Pete
Avman
I arrived on the 21.30 flybe EDI flight (195) on a Wednesday night
in April and we parked on the 20's despite the whole on T2 parking
was empty except for a parked 145 which had not flown that day.
The only other nightstopper in was the Frankfurt which was also
on the 20's. It was just so strange, 21.05 (very early) and not an
aircraft in sight on T2 but we had to get a bus to the terminal.
The 195 in question was not flying until the next morning on the
9.40 Milan and I thought it was parked remote as they could
not be bothered to park it on an airbridge and push it to remote
later. I e-mailed flybe and got pretty much the same answer
that grundyhead gave with an added note that my comments
will passed to the appropriate department and thank you for
the feedback.
There was little problem as the bus was waiting and we were
at arrivals within a blink of an eye.
On the way out in the morning the flight was subbed from a
Q400 to 195 (not last minute) and again stand 16 was free but
we were left on a bus standing for 20 minutes (minor tech
problem) waiting to go to the 20's. The bus was packed and
the pax (virtually all business except for me and a couple others)
were getting impatient.
To be fair in the morning it is busy and there would be little
time for towing aircraft back and forward from stand to stand
but when things go wrong and you leave pax on a bus it does
not give a great impression. There were a few T2 stands free
at the time but only one gate free and that was 16 (could
have been out of use but didn't look it). I assume in this
instance there was no alternative and the minor tech problem
through a spanner in the works.
It was the night arrival which seemed odd and remember no
KLM or AF are parked on T2 now. It just seemed an odd use
of facilities let alone the fuel the buses use etc but that is
another story.
Runway extension
As mentioned before TOM would gain immediately with the
Cancun, a few years ago I would have said Delta to Atlanta
was a good bet plus charters to Vagas and Vancouver.
However 10 years ago if you said we would have double
daily EK 77W's (from June) I would have been calling for
the men in white coats!
SOE - The Cancun has always made a tech stop at
Manchester or Shannon, so I assume a no-go for direct.
Pete
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...and it's always easy to do the stand planning when you only see a snapshot view of the whole plan.
At the moment there is no such thing as a free stand due to WIP stands are at a premium.
Some stands cannot be used because a large aircraft is due on the stand next to it, giving the appearance of idle stands.
Aircraft move about a lot during the night. Stands are allocated dependant on so many variants.
Unless you work with the plans you cannot hope to get the right viewpoint.
It only takes a handling agent to take too long to move an a/c that is tech to mess up a whole days planning.
I'm sure apron control would welcome anyone who would like to see how it's done.
Hurry while it's still there.......One thing I can guarantee is that the proposed combined control room will not do the stand planning to a standard anywhere near the way it is done now......
At the moment there is no such thing as a free stand due to WIP stands are at a premium.
Some stands cannot be used because a large aircraft is due on the stand next to it, giving the appearance of idle stands.
Aircraft move about a lot during the night. Stands are allocated dependant on so many variants.
Unless you work with the plans you cannot hope to get the right viewpoint.
It only takes a handling agent to take too long to move an a/c that is tech to mess up a whole days planning.
I'm sure apron control would welcome anyone who would like to see how it's done.
Hurry while it's still there.......One thing I can guarantee is that the proposed combined control room will not do the stand planning to a standard anywhere near the way it is done now......
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Hellinic at BHX
Its confirmed guys:
Birmingham Mail - News - Top Stories - Greek airline planning new flights from Birmingham airport
A 747 four times a week!
Birmingham Mail - News - Top Stories - Greek airline planning new flights from Birmingham airport
A 747 four times a week!
Join Date: Jan 2006
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stand allocation
call100
I don't understand your comment there is no such thing as a free stand. I am talking about T2 where as far as I could see there is no or little work in progress and just two airlines using the terminal. Also I was on the 195
which I believe fits most if not all T2 stands especially the ones with airbridges (although I prefer non-airbridge stands).
There is work behind stands 15 & 16 on T1 but 15 was been used anyway in the morning. I suppose 16 could of had some other issues and I
understand that in the busy morning period there is no way on earth
that you can allow aircraft to be towed around whilst 30-odd aircraft
are preparing for departure.
My main point was the evening and it was quite clear that we were
remote parked in order not to reposition the aircraft rather than pax convenience. However in this instance it did not matter time wise as
the bus was waiting and got us to arrivals quickly if not bemused.
It is just bizarre to see a multi million pound terminal empty of aircraft
and the two "active" aircraft remote parked. Okay by 23.30 most stands
would have been full but it was only 21.05.
I fully accept your point about the morning but I remain scepitical
about the evening. Mind you if FR do base 10 aircraft eventually
then there will be a lot more remote parking, in fact with flybe's
9-10 night-stoppers it will be very cosy
.
Pete
I don't understand your comment there is no such thing as a free stand. I am talking about T2 where as far as I could see there is no or little work in progress and just two airlines using the terminal. Also I was on the 195
which I believe fits most if not all T2 stands especially the ones with airbridges (although I prefer non-airbridge stands).
There is work behind stands 15 & 16 on T1 but 15 was been used anyway in the morning. I suppose 16 could of had some other issues and I
understand that in the busy morning period there is no way on earth
that you can allow aircraft to be towed around whilst 30-odd aircraft
are preparing for departure.
My main point was the evening and it was quite clear that we were
remote parked in order not to reposition the aircraft rather than pax convenience. However in this instance it did not matter time wise as
the bus was waiting and got us to arrivals quickly if not bemused.
It is just bizarre to see a multi million pound terminal empty of aircraft
and the two "active" aircraft remote parked. Okay by 23.30 most stands
would have been full but it was only 21.05.
I fully accept your point about the morning but I remain scepitical
about the evening. Mind you if FR do base 10 aircraft eventually
then there will be a lot more remote parking, in fact with flybe's
9-10 night-stoppers it will be very cosy
.Pete
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“This service to Jeddah will make it so much easier for Midland pilgrims attending the Haj,” he said.
“Too many people have had bitter experiences of travelling to Heathrow and are anxious to have direct services from their local airport.”
Mr Chowdhury said Hellenic Imperial would soon be starting new services to Casablanca in Morocco from Athens and the Birmingham flights meant Midland travellers would be able to make an easy connection to Morocco’s largest city.
I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous! Have they done any research on these routes? The Hajj is an annual event lasting just 4 days, and Casablanca via Athens just makes no sense at all.“Too many people have had bitter experiences of travelling to Heathrow and are anxious to have direct services from their local airport.”
Mr Chowdhury said Hellenic Imperial would soon be starting new services to Casablanca in Morocco from Athens and the Birmingham flights meant Midland travellers would be able to make an easy connection to Morocco’s largest city.
If the demand is there on any short-medium route to be filling B747's four times a week, surely an airline would have already exploited it using smaller a/c?
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Iam annoyed that this service is starting because its going to be scrapped straight away!
I want a link to athens from the midlands but i just know that Hellinic Imperial won't last.
I think that Aegean will be the airline that starts a link to athens from the midlands. Just a matter of time.
I want a link to athens from the midlands but i just know that Hellinic Imperial won't last.
I think that Aegean will be the airline that starts a link to athens from the midlands. Just a matter of time.
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Helenic
Birmingham seems to attract these maveric airlines and charter companies with delusions of grandure
This airline will fail to anywhere near fill a 747 to ATH even at peak holiday season.
They may well fill the aircraft for the short period of the Hajj and that is what they should concentrate on ex BHX.
This does nothing for Birmingham Airports reputation when disappointed travelers keep being left high and dry. Now if Aegean announced a service a few times a week or Saudia again a few times per week that would be a different matter.
Daza
This airline will fail to anywhere near fill a 747 to ATH even at peak holiday season.
They may well fill the aircraft for the short period of the Hajj and that is what they should concentrate on ex BHX.
This does nothing for Birmingham Airports reputation when disappointed travelers keep being left high and dry. Now if Aegean announced a service a few times a week or Saudia again a few times per week that would be a different matter.
Daza
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Gkaloy,
Would Aegean have the marketing presence to make the route work? I could see some logic in Flybe starting say 3x/week, but they must have already looked at this. Ditto for other European capitals from Brum - BER, MAD etc, especially now FR not doing EMA-MAD, there must be the demand there, but not the right slots? Don't see FR going in to Greece because of lack of flexibility from airport operators.
Would Aegean have the marketing presence to make the route work? I could see some logic in Flybe starting say 3x/week, but they must have already looked at this. Ditto for other European capitals from Brum - BER, MAD etc, especially now FR not doing EMA-MAD, there must be the demand there, but not the right slots? Don't see FR going in to Greece because of lack of flexibility from airport operators.
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Bhx-ath
jabird, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for Flybe to do anything at Birmingham. This airline has a history of consolidation in the midlands even before the present recession. They have, over the years they have operated from Birmingham frequently altered timetables, discontinued destinations and frequency of flying mid season. Don't look to them for expansion at Birmingham.
Aegean Airlines are the only "quality" airline operating in Greece. Olympic are near bankrupt and their service leaves an awful lot to be desired.I speak from bitter experience here!!!
Aegean already operate to STN three times daily they would be the most realistic choice for any BHX-ATH service.
Daza
Aegean Airlines are the only "quality" airline operating in Greece. Olympic are near bankrupt and their service leaves an awful lot to be desired.I speak from bitter experience here!!!
Aegean already operate to STN three times daily they would be the most realistic choice for any BHX-ATH service.
Daza
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Every flight i have been going to athens or thessaloniki from london has been full with the following airlines.
BA
Olympic
Aegean
Easyjet
Ryanair are in the process of trying to establish a route to Volos and have got permision from the authorities and now ryanair is requesting £300,000 from the local council for advertisements on their website. if this is ever done im sure other airlines will follow.
I dont see flybe starting up a route for a few years.
BA
Olympic
Aegean
Easyjet
Ryanair are in the process of trying to establish a route to Volos and have got permision from the authorities and now ryanair is requesting £300,000 from the local council for advertisements on their website. if this is ever done im sure other airlines will follow.
I dont see flybe starting up a route for a few years.
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PIE IN THE SKY
This service will never operate its just another airline with grand ideas
This is my opinon but I might prove to be wrong but I think NOT
We shall wait and c
Regards
This service will never operate its just another airline with grand ideas
This is my opinon but I might prove to be wrong but I think NOT
We shall wait and c
Regards