BIRMINGHAM - 4
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But the biggest problem is the naivity of the British public, indeed the British mentality ..... why would 'we' even think about flying with a Dutch, German, French, Swiss etc. airline to get to our destination in The Americas or Asia etc?
Naivity and mentality are strong words. Ignorance, in its nicest sense, is probably better. In that case, the key is advertising. As someone has already stated, by whom is a different question.
Naivity and mentality are strong words. Ignorance, in its nicest sense, is probably better. In that case, the key is advertising. As someone has already stated, by whom is a different question.
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Phileas and Giddy,
You are both more than right about BHX being a convenient (or convenience!) place to catch a short connecting flight to a European hub for a quick transfer to a long haul destination. For such journeys BHX is well served by a range of carriers and really as far as i'm concerned the journey to LHR is not justified to 'travel direct'. Indeed when I used to live in Muscat I flew LX, LH and KL to/from BHX, easy journeys and generally good fares. And I am enough in the know to be happy to make a simple flight connection is a well designed and easy to navigate European hub. So far so good.
However, as I have pointed out before its no wonder that people use MAN, BRS, LPL, LHR and so on to get to places on their doorstep ie Europe. The relative lack of non stop European city connections from BHX is a (well documented on this thread) sacrilege. Take my next two journeys, KRK (20-27 APR 282GBP LH from BHX via MUC, 89GBP direct LPL-KRK, no hold bags) and LIS (05-15 JUL, 281GBP KL via AMS from BHX, 98 GBP TP MAN-LIS direct), wonder which airlines I booked with and airports I chose to fly from, erm sorry despite wanting to fly from BHX it was a no brainer.....sorry I can't afford to support my local airport for European travel until it gets some decent non stop city connections sorted at reasonable (and I don't mean 20 quid all in) prices.
So yes one can 'travel the world' nicely from BHX (Hello World....) but as far as good old Europe goes, pay through the nose for a long connecting journey or travel direct from another airport.
Unlike those lucky enough to fly enough to amass air miles/points/lounge access, get paid to fly on business or whose job/life takes them to long haul destinations, I am just someone who wants/needs to travel to Europe every now and again and sorry, have to take price and time into account. I (and probably many others) simply can't afford 'legacy' carrier prices for short hop journeys to cities across Europe that should (or could if the airport got its arse in gear and stopped chasing once a week here today gone tomorrow airlines flying to obscure destinations) be available direct from BHX. Or spend four hours in transit in AMS when I would more than on my way to LIS even taking into account the journey to MAN. Right, i'm now off to National Rail to book my bargain advance tickets to Liverpool South Parkway and Manchester Airport and look at BA and BMI flights to Berlin from LHR for my trip there in August.......
You are both more than right about BHX being a convenient (or convenience!) place to catch a short connecting flight to a European hub for a quick transfer to a long haul destination. For such journeys BHX is well served by a range of carriers and really as far as i'm concerned the journey to LHR is not justified to 'travel direct'. Indeed when I used to live in Muscat I flew LX, LH and KL to/from BHX, easy journeys and generally good fares. And I am enough in the know to be happy to make a simple flight connection is a well designed and easy to navigate European hub. So far so good.
However, as I have pointed out before its no wonder that people use MAN, BRS, LPL, LHR and so on to get to places on their doorstep ie Europe. The relative lack of non stop European city connections from BHX is a (well documented on this thread) sacrilege. Take my next two journeys, KRK (20-27 APR 282GBP LH from BHX via MUC, 89GBP direct LPL-KRK, no hold bags) and LIS (05-15 JUL, 281GBP KL via AMS from BHX, 98 GBP TP MAN-LIS direct), wonder which airlines I booked with and airports I chose to fly from, erm sorry despite wanting to fly from BHX it was a no brainer.....sorry I can't afford to support my local airport for European travel until it gets some decent non stop city connections sorted at reasonable (and I don't mean 20 quid all in) prices.
So yes one can 'travel the world' nicely from BHX (Hello World....) but as far as good old Europe goes, pay through the nose for a long connecting journey or travel direct from another airport.
Unlike those lucky enough to fly enough to amass air miles/points/lounge access, get paid to fly on business or whose job/life takes them to long haul destinations, I am just someone who wants/needs to travel to Europe every now and again and sorry, have to take price and time into account. I (and probably many others) simply can't afford 'legacy' carrier prices for short hop journeys to cities across Europe that should (or could if the airport got its arse in gear and stopped chasing once a week here today gone tomorrow airlines flying to obscure destinations) be available direct from BHX. Or spend four hours in transit in AMS when I would more than on my way to LIS even taking into account the journey to MAN. Right, i'm now off to National Rail to book my bargain advance tickets to Liverpool South Parkway and Manchester Airport and look at BA and BMI flights to Berlin from LHR for my trip there in August.......
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GayFriendly,
Fair and valid points, ever heard of the saying "One is never going to please everybody and all of the time"!
You mention some particular routes, how about a route destination 'The Philippines', one can't even fly it (direct) from LHR, one needs to 'KLM' or 'Middle East' it, my point is that BHX already offers the majority of travellers their ultimate product/destination, it's just the majority of travellers just need to understand that they needn't neccessarily expect direct flights BHX to Timbuktu anytime soon, the product is already available allbeit not on a direct basis!
Fair and valid points, ever heard of the saying "One is never going to please everybody and all of the time"!
You mention some particular routes, how about a route destination 'The Philippines', one can't even fly it (direct) from LHR, one needs to 'KLM' or 'Middle East' it, my point is that BHX already offers the majority of travellers their ultimate product/destination, it's just the majority of travellers just need to understand that they needn't neccessarily expect direct flights BHX to Timbuktu anytime soon, the product is already available allbeit not on a direct basis!
PP
I thought the taxes were banded according to mileage. If you fly to a shorthaul destination then you pay less then a direct longhaul flight regardless of onward connections.
Maybe if FR stopped mucking BHX about with all the changes and promises they made at startup then more people would use BHX for travel into Europe.
If only Easy and Jet2 would look at BHX then I feel there would be more opportunities for the airport.
As a footnote when I worked for Maersk 10 years ago they were tied up with the BA franchise. The long term strategy at the time was for Maersk to go it alone and expand the European market because they sensed that BA did not care about the regions. How right they were, but 9/11 happened and that's another story.
PS any more news about AI yet?
If one is flying outside of EU (ish) then unless one is occupying 24 hours in EU transit, or doing it as two seperate bookings, one still pays UK rip-off tax.
Maybe if FR stopped mucking BHX about with all the changes and promises they made at startup then more people would use BHX for travel into Europe.
If only Easy and Jet2 would look at BHX then I feel there would be more opportunities for the airport.
As a footnote when I worked for Maersk 10 years ago they were tied up with the BA franchise. The long term strategy at the time was for Maersk to go it alone and expand the European market because they sensed that BA did not care about the regions. How right they were, but 9/11 happened and that's another story.
PS any more news about AI yet?
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crewmeal,
I was a regular user of BHX when BA (whatever they were called) operated the fleet of Embraer pocket rockets.
As example(s) a number (ish) of times my ultimate destination was KBP and, from BHX, I achieved this by KL via AMS or LH via DUS, one time I needed to get to TSR, LH via MUC served this need, I was a regular to FCO, there was a loco on this route from BHX yet LX via ZRH were, not only, cheaper but better also.
There were also times when my ultimate destination was MXP, LX via ZRH were/are so darn good and so well priced BA never came in to the equation and a number of times, when DUS was my ultimate destination, BA simply couldn't match the price offered by LH and the one time LH were too expensive BA still couldn't match the price offered by KL BHX/AMS/DUS.
The problem with such an operator is that they'll operate to Europe which is where the route ends, at that 'one stop' in Europe, they won't/can't offer the onward connections from France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland etc. that the other carriers can and do.
For this intercontinental travel from BHX the BHX/Europe/BHX sectors, pretty much, comes for free and no British carrier is ever likely to be able to compete with this except under a codeshare agreement.
I was a regular user of BHX when BA (whatever they were called) operated the fleet of Embraer pocket rockets.
As example(s) a number (ish) of times my ultimate destination was KBP and, from BHX, I achieved this by KL via AMS or LH via DUS, one time I needed to get to TSR, LH via MUC served this need, I was a regular to FCO, there was a loco on this route from BHX yet LX via ZRH were, not only, cheaper but better also.
There were also times when my ultimate destination was MXP, LX via ZRH were/are so darn good and so well priced BA never came in to the equation and a number of times, when DUS was my ultimate destination, BA simply couldn't match the price offered by LH and the one time LH were too expensive BA still couldn't match the price offered by KL BHX/AMS/DUS.
The problem with such an operator is that they'll operate to Europe which is where the route ends, at that 'one stop' in Europe, they won't/can't offer the onward connections from France, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Switzerland etc. that the other carriers can and do.
For this intercontinental travel from BHX the BHX/Europe/BHX sectors, pretty much, comes for free and no British carrier is ever likely to be able to compete with this except under a codeshare agreement.
Direct or Connect?
Interesting debate. Actually when you look at it, all the myriad of Middle Eastern carriers operating from MAN are doing little more than LH, KL, AF, SK, TK are already doing from there, and from BHX - that is offering a hub and spoke connection to Far Eastern and Australasian destinations. Lufthansa has only recently reported good increases in carrying from BHX without increasing capacity, and if BHX had more choice of hubs then they (LH) would probably not have done quite so well.
Whilst from spotting and photography point of view it would be great to have all these exotic carriers operating from BHX, I reckon that their absence has probably helped BHX retain the number and regularity of full service airlines services, which in turn supports the West Midlands economy much more effectively than Locos operating to obscure, mostly leisure destinations on the near continent.
More daily services to major European business centres is what BHX needs, and these should be a priority for whatever marketing strategy BHX might (or might not) have. Attracting obscure carriers to offer secondary services to satisfy the Asian leisure market should not be a priority in my opinion.
Whilst from spotting and photography point of view it would be great to have all these exotic carriers operating from BHX, I reckon that their absence has probably helped BHX retain the number and regularity of full service airlines services, which in turn supports the West Midlands economy much more effectively than Locos operating to obscure, mostly leisure destinations on the near continent.
More daily services to major European business centres is what BHX needs, and these should be a priority for whatever marketing strategy BHX might (or might not) have. Attracting obscure carriers to offer secondary services to satisfy the Asian leisure market should not be a priority in my opinion.
crewmeal
If Maersk had gone it alone and used the free advertising provided worldwide on the container lorries, then I'm sure that you and I would still be employed by them.
However I had it on very good authority that when Maersk AS discovered that BA wanted too much revenue from the franchise agreement and were not prepared to subsidise the advertising budget (even though it was their own product!), then the possibility of an extension of the franchise to Maersk AS was shelved and Maersk Air Ltd was left on its own at the Eurohub without major commercial support from either BA or Maersk Air.
As was mentioned in a previous post, advertising would seem to be the key! I remember doing an online search for any direct flight BHX - TXL and was told no flight existed from BHX even though I was operating it myself the following day! (with about a 30% load factor).
However I had it on very good authority that when Maersk AS discovered that BA wanted too much revenue from the franchise agreement and were not prepared to subsidise the advertising budget (even though it was their own product!), then the possibility of an extension of the franchise to Maersk AS was shelved and Maersk Air Ltd was left on its own at the Eurohub without major commercial support from either BA or Maersk Air.
As was mentioned in a previous post, advertising would seem to be the key! I remember doing an online search for any direct flight BHX - TXL and was told no flight existed from BHX even though I was operating it myself the following day! (with about a 30% load factor).
Without going back in time too much it seemed BA Regional as it was known then didn't give the franchise support that it was supposed to. Their philosophy was to redirect passengers via DUS in the case of TXL and ZRH for LIN/MXP thereby trying to cream passengers for their own benefits. The times I heard pax saying they didn't know the Maersk route existed was uncountable.
They did the same on the very successful MAN - JFK by getting everyone to go via LHR. we know the outcome of all that.
They did the same on the very successful MAN - JFK by getting everyone to go via LHR. we know the outcome of all that.
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Crewmeal APD
New labooor thought through all or most of the tricks we might get up to in trying to avoid APD.
The Irish government will shortly reduce it's APD to a flat rate of 3 euros I think? But if you fly to the US with a carrier via Ireland you will stay pay the full UK tax unless you stop over for more than a certain number of hours dependent the the end destination.
There is nothing stopping you booking a flight to AMS or CDG or DUB and booking another flight with the same or another carrier, but the risk if you are delayed out bound is yours, many websites know that your booking from a UK ISP and the prices seem to reflect that.
Any savings are likely to be offset by the costs of getting there plus risk.
APD is achieving one of it's intended aims ie reducing the number of internal flights,but I suspect more people are driving to airports further away as flights are reduced from small regional airports such as CWL & MME the reduction in passenger numbers at most UK airports is down to many factors of which tax is just one,others include hassle of security and airports revenue streams for car parking and drop off,the con of many LoCo airlines websites, the economy of course, but very little to do with being good citizens and going green, which was of course the main argument for APD, but we all knew that was a lie. The population of the UK likes to pay lots of tax or at least our leaders seem to think
The Irish government will shortly reduce it's APD to a flat rate of 3 euros I think? But if you fly to the US with a carrier via Ireland you will stay pay the full UK tax unless you stop over for more than a certain number of hours dependent the the end destination.
There is nothing stopping you booking a flight to AMS or CDG or DUB and booking another flight with the same or another carrier, but the risk if you are delayed out bound is yours, many websites know that your booking from a UK ISP and the prices seem to reflect that.
Any savings are likely to be offset by the costs of getting there plus risk.
APD is achieving one of it's intended aims ie reducing the number of internal flights,but I suspect more people are driving to airports further away as flights are reduced from small regional airports such as CWL & MME the reduction in passenger numbers at most UK airports is down to many factors of which tax is just one,others include hassle of security and airports revenue streams for car parking and drop off,the con of many LoCo airlines websites, the economy of course, but very little to do with being good citizens and going green, which was of course the main argument for APD, but we all knew that was a lie. The population of the UK likes to pay lots of tax or at least our leaders seem to think
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A couple of additional points from me.
Firstly regarding connections. I know perfectly intelligent, professional people who don't even like connecting for rail journeys...such people aren't going to want to take connecting flights. We can sneer at them all we like, but it's education, promotion and incentivisation that are are going to get them to take connecting flights from BHX.
In terms of where the responsibility lies for promoting the network, I would say clearly with the airport. For example, for years, EI has offered excellent connections through DUB to North America from BHX - they've not promoted them heavily - so why doesn't BHX scream from the rooftops about them? The airlines have to balance their interests at BHX with those elsewhere... but as a single airport company, BIA can concentrate on bigging itself up.
There was a campaign along the right tracks some years ago - 'Come here, go anywhere' but I don't think it was ever sustained - although to my knowledge the marketing team at the time knew which direction they wanted to go in - they wanted to be far more aggressive in clawing back pax using LHR than they were allowed to be.
As for the sporadic efforts over the past couple of years...
Firstly regarding connections. I know perfectly intelligent, professional people who don't even like connecting for rail journeys...such people aren't going to want to take connecting flights. We can sneer at them all we like, but it's education, promotion and incentivisation that are are going to get them to take connecting flights from BHX.
In terms of where the responsibility lies for promoting the network, I would say clearly with the airport. For example, for years, EI has offered excellent connections through DUB to North America from BHX - they've not promoted them heavily - so why doesn't BHX scream from the rooftops about them? The airlines have to balance their interests at BHX with those elsewhere... but as a single airport company, BIA can concentrate on bigging itself up.
There was a campaign along the right tracks some years ago - 'Come here, go anywhere' but I don't think it was ever sustained - although to my knowledge the marketing team at the time knew which direction they wanted to go in - they wanted to be far more aggressive in clawing back pax using LHR than they were allowed to be.
As for the sporadic efforts over the past couple of years...
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Giddy,
Let's say you live in such a 'dump' as Rushden, Northamptonshire, no rail station, no National Express blah blah blah.
Do you really believe such residents wouldn't appreciate a rail station even if they needed to connect to get anywhere sensible ... even a National Express service would be appreciated!
Now, think about it, a resident of Rushden, and many other similar towns also, can drive for circa 2 hours to/from LHR, pay extortionate car parking, perhaps hotel/parking package, prices, the nightmare of transitting, twice, the world's busiest airport, or they can drive perhaps 1 hour to/from BHX, reasonable car parking charges however there is a free car park 4 minutes down the railway line, and a stress free environment (besides security
) once they enter the terminal.
Giddy ... How many times have you transitted LHR as a passenger, the mega complex of it all, waiting untold times for baggage etc? Please allow me to ensure you it is not a pleasurable experience!
And the penalty for avoiding such a scenario is to route via The Netherlands or Germany etc. on their way to/from Asia or wherever? ..... Besides that, let's cut to the chase, Guinness is cheaper in BHX than it is in LHR
Let's say you live in such a 'dump' as Rushden, Northamptonshire, no rail station, no National Express blah blah blah.
Do you really believe such residents wouldn't appreciate a rail station even if they needed to connect to get anywhere sensible ... even a National Express service would be appreciated!
Now, think about it, a resident of Rushden, and many other similar towns also, can drive for circa 2 hours to/from LHR, pay extortionate car parking, perhaps hotel/parking package, prices, the nightmare of transitting, twice, the world's busiest airport, or they can drive perhaps 1 hour to/from BHX, reasonable car parking charges however there is a free car park 4 minutes down the railway line, and a stress free environment (besides security
) once they enter the terminal.Giddy ... How many times have you transitted LHR as a passenger, the mega complex of it all, waiting untold times for baggage etc? Please allow me to ensure you it is not a pleasurable experience!
And the penalty for avoiding such a scenario is to route via The Netherlands or Germany etc. on their way to/from Asia or wherever? ..... Besides that, let's cut to the chase, Guinness is cheaper in BHX than it is in LHR
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Crewmeal
Easy have looked at BHX over the years but the deal could never be done.
BHX just too expensive at the time. And BHX wanted premium traffic.
So the question has to be asked. Were EJ outdone by Ryanair?
Or have BHX dropped a clanger?
Oh and if Maersk had gone low cost with Boeing well now that would have been interesting. Lets face it Bab the CRJ was never gonna work!
Binder
Easy have looked at BHX over the years but the deal could never be done.
BHX just too expensive at the time. And BHX wanted premium traffic.
So the question has to be asked. Were EJ outdone by Ryanair?
Or have BHX dropped a clanger?
Oh and if Maersk had gone low cost with Boeing well now that would have been interesting. Lets face it Bab the CRJ was never gonna work!
Binder
Oh and if Maersk had gone low cost with Boeing well now that would have been interesting. Lets face it Bab the CRJ was never gonna work!
I'll be going back to Jordan later in the year and I have to choose my options carefully. I can use LH via FRA (connecting times ok) TK via IST (connecting times poor) or fly direct from LHR using RJ or BD. At the moment the most comfortable option is BD from LHR because no night flying. It still means a costly journey (petrol prices, Virgin trains) to LHR. These days you have to allow 4 hours for what ever may happen on the M42/M25 etc. So depending on fares I might have to take an uncomfortable option via a transit point in Europe. Either way the West Midlands traveller is stuffed for one reason or another.
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BHX doesn't advertise the connections via Dublin etc is because it views the connecting airports as competitors......Not my view but the reason I was given over many years of asking the question. It never made sense to me either.
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Bagso,
MAN does not, and never will, offer as many flight options as LHR else MAN might find itself, already, max'd out, with no runway slots available, and with circa 5 terminals!
I wouldn't even care to start listing the carriers and/or routes served by LHR but not by MAN.
MAN does not, and never will, offer as many flight options as LHR else MAN might find itself, already, max'd out, with no runway slots available, and with circa 5 terminals!
I wouldn't even care to start listing the carriers and/or routes served by LHR but not by MAN.
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Monarch/connections
Monarch are determined to squeeze every spare minute out of their BHX aircraft. They have now added a high-season second Tenerife (evening) on a Tuesday leaving leaving just one Wednesday evening slot available other than night flight and even then there is little left. An example of this is the Saturday night Ibiza is no longer shown as Saturday night but a Sunday flight at 00.45 departure!!!
Dublin
I have often looked at connecting via Dublin to JFK or MCO but I have found it not to be that competitive with fares usually quite high. Although to be fair I am restricted to school hols but May last year BHX-DUB-MCO was £650 each whereas I flew TOM from BHX direct to SFB at £417.
New York usually only comes out at about £50 cheaper than Continental but of course that varies depending on the time of year etc.
Phileas Fogg
quote
"Besides that, let's cut to the chase, Guinness is cheaper in BHX than it is in LHR"
In the days of the old terminal when I worked at BHX, if you believed the Cheltenham punters it was one the best pints outside of the Emerald Isles
Pete
Dublin
I have often looked at connecting via Dublin to JFK or MCO but I have found it not to be that competitive with fares usually quite high. Although to be fair I am restricted to school hols but May last year BHX-DUB-MCO was £650 each whereas I flew TOM from BHX direct to SFB at £417.
New York usually only comes out at about £50 cheaper than Continental but of course that varies depending on the time of year etc.
Phileas Fogg
quote
"Besides that, let's cut to the chase, Guinness is cheaper in BHX than it is in LHR"
In the days of the old terminal when I worked at BHX, if you believed the Cheltenham punters it was one the best pints outside of the Emerald Isles
Pete
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Ryanair summer 2011
Jamie2k9
Cheers, still no other changes for the period up to June with the Tue
and Thu day slot still available and Monday late evening.
At least Saturday has now been filled.
Pete
Cheers, still no other changes for the period up to June with the Tue
and Thu day slot still available and Monday late evening.
At least Saturday has now been filled.
Pete
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Giddy ... How many times have you transitted LHR as a passenger, the mega complex of it all, waiting untold times for baggage etc? Please allow me to ensure you it is not a pleasurable experience
If you are one of those who sighs and taps his feet at a 5 minute wait, then LHR is not for you, but, if you are a bit more of an easy going traveller, then LHR is no more complicated than say, MAN/BHX/CDG etc.
Like I say, that is my personal opinion, but others will have different ones, and thats completely fine.