MANCHESTER - 5
Join Date: Jan 2005
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Further to my post above, here's a link to plans for the T3 apron expansion (approved last year), which shows an A380 capable stand.
http://www.publicaccess.manchester.g...4-DSP-0002.pdf
http://www.publicaccess.manchester.g...4-DSP-0002.pdf
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Tadger, thanks for that. Those show the exact details of what I have mentioned in previous posts regarding T3 future plans but I wasn't lucky enough to have visual aids!! MA are now talking about extending the T3 Pier so that the new stands on the Apron extension won't be remote. I don't think this has got board approval yet though.
Stand 12 on 'B Pier' will also be able to accomodate the A380 and they will be building a new lounge at the end of 'B Pier' specially for this. The future of 'B Pier' is very much up in the air at the minute though, as there is some debate as to whether to demolish and rebuild it or whether to simply remodel it with the existing structure. It could be a case that the T3 A380 stand will be ready 1st.
Stand 12 on 'B Pier' will also be able to accomodate the A380 and they will be building a new lounge at the end of 'B Pier' specially for this. The future of 'B Pier' is very much up in the air at the minute though, as there is some debate as to whether to demolish and rebuild it or whether to simply remodel it with the existing structure. It could be a case that the T3 A380 stand will be ready 1st.
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Air Asia X
The report below would suggest Air Asia will be serving STN rather than MAN.
Has anyone any further info on this and come to that Oasis
http://www.travelbite.co.uk/news/uk/...n-$1215709.htm
Sorry the link does seem to work
Viscount
Has anyone any further info on this and come to that Oasis
http://www.travelbite.co.uk/news/uk/...n-$1215709.htm
Sorry the link does seem to work
Viscount
Last edited by viscount702; 27th Mar 2008 at 20:03. Reason: Link not working
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Location: South of MAN, North of BHX, and well clear of Stoke ;-)
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Could the fact that Branson is partly behind Asia X and also code shares through VS on the SQ out of MAN, who happens to be a majority holder of VS stock, whereas at STN there is no such conflict of interest, be a possible reason why MAN is being apparently overlooked?
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Its an interesting conspiracy theory but I dont think its valid, because LHR is only just down the road so the damage to LHR PAX Singapore/ Virgin figures is surely greater ? especially now there is the A380 to fill every day.
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Maybe the development at the side of T3 is for FR's benefit as much as anybodys?
Parking the a/c right next to the runway with an easy access may help get FR into MAN which is surely going to be an inevitability. U2 will also like this idea when they look to put their next three a/c into the airport along with the two already based (currently GB).
Parking the a/c right next to the runway with an easy access may help get FR into MAN which is surely going to be an inevitability. U2 will also like this idea when they look to put their next three a/c into the airport along with the two already based (currently GB).
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You've pretty much hit the nail on the head there MUFC fan. Around 12 months ago FR indicated that they wanted to open up a base at MAN but there are certain things that they want from the airport before they consider this. One of those being that they'd rather operate from what would effectively be a 'shed' with virtually no facilities, no fancy decorations, using all remote stands. And hence paying less charges! Of course MAplc won't go for this because they want to maximise revenue through as many shops, bars and restaurants as they can possibly squeeze into the terminals. So the new plans for T3 are effectively a compromise. T1 & T2 are both going through massive overhauls at the moment and will benefit from better passenger facilities once the works have finished. T3 won't see development on anything like the same scale and will be more suited to FR and of course the likes of bmibaby, EasyJet and Jet2.
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The plans for the T3 apron extension were first made public at the end of 2006 - see my Christmas Day post below
"Went to get some fresh air to clear the head this afternoon and noticed a couple of planning application notices on Ringway Road.
One related to the demolition of the thatched cottage opposite the 24R holding bay. The second and more interesting was with regards to the closure/diversion of Ringway Road and the revised use of said road and parts of the longstay carpark for Aprons."
This obviously well pre-dates any Ryanair expansion stories (well any that might have been made public, as the airport was hoping to woo them at an earlier stage), but possibly was a little more relevant to possible easyJet expansion that had been mooted for a while.
Hopefully we will hear soon as to the next batch of Ryanair routes.
Scottie Dog
ps - did nobody every come up with an answer to Suzeman's question on the closure of RET JB??
"Went to get some fresh air to clear the head this afternoon and noticed a couple of planning application notices on Ringway Road.
One related to the demolition of the thatched cottage opposite the 24R holding bay. The second and more interesting was with regards to the closure/diversion of Ringway Road and the revised use of said road and parts of the longstay carpark for Aprons."
This obviously well pre-dates any Ryanair expansion stories (well any that might have been made public, as the airport was hoping to woo them at an earlier stage), but possibly was a little more relevant to possible easyJet expansion that had been mooted for a while.
Hopefully we will hear soon as to the next batch of Ryanair routes.
Scottie Dog
ps - did nobody every come up with an answer to Suzeman's question on the closure of RET JB??
Join Date: Jul 2004
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RET JB, T3 Aprons, Runway 23L distances, & A380
RET Juliet-Bravo (wasn't she a nice-looking lady Copper?) has been permanently withdrawn due to deterioration in its surface. It is an old 'porous friction course' laid in 1980 - the only one of this type remaining at MAN and has reached the end of its serviceable life. Normally, it would be re-surfaced, but because JB does not feature in the future taxiway and runway exit strategy it has been withdrawn at this time. This leaves 05L without a full-scale RET. This situation is considered managable because 05L will less and less be used as a landing runway. All-day use of 05R-23L will be introduced in the medium term, with 05R the primary arrival runway on 'easterlies'. Work is planned to improve and upgrade the shallow-angled exit 'Hotel' for use in LVP.
Work to construct the first 3 stands of the T3 apron extension begins in May. These stands will initially be set back towards the runways pending the diversion of the old Ringway Road. 3 x B737-900W / A320, remote bussed. Pier extension to follow in later phases. Should be in use end-2008.
New declared distances on Runway 23L come into effect this Spring, giving 3200m (10500 feet) from Tango, and 3050m (10005 feet) from VA. A small change but confirms 23L as longest available at MAN.
Work is at an advanced stage to make MAN available as a diversion alternate for A380s. Careful planning has been underway to make sure the various elements of infrastructure and procedures are in place. This should be beneficial to carriers operating A380s into LHR, particularly those who have a MAN station also. Looking beyond this, more extensive planning continues towards being able to accept regular scheduled A380 services from 2010.
Work to construct the first 3 stands of the T3 apron extension begins in May. These stands will initially be set back towards the runways pending the diversion of the old Ringway Road. 3 x B737-900W / A320, remote bussed. Pier extension to follow in later phases. Should be in use end-2008.
New declared distances on Runway 23L come into effect this Spring, giving 3200m (10500 feet) from Tango, and 3050m (10005 feet) from VA. A small change but confirms 23L as longest available at MAN.
Work is at an advanced stage to make MAN available as a diversion alternate for A380s. Careful planning has been underway to make sure the various elements of infrastructure and procedures are in place. This should be beneficial to carriers operating A380s into LHR, particularly those who have a MAN station also. Looking beyond this, more extensive planning continues towards being able to accept regular scheduled A380 services from 2010.
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Thanks
Just want to take this opportunity to thank both FlyZB and Roverman for their informative and accurate posts. 
We all know that there is a lot of 'rumour' in this site - that is part of the enjoyment - but it is also much appreciated when known sources are able to post reliable data.
It will be interesting to see what the future taxiway and runway exit strategy is (pm's accepted!!).
By the way Roverman, you are quite right about her being a good-looking Copper - made my pulse race a bit.
Scottie Dog
We all know that there is a lot of 'rumour' in this site - that is part of the enjoyment - but it is also much appreciated when known sources are able to post reliable data.
It will be interesting to see what the future taxiway and runway exit strategy is (pm's accepted!!).
By the way Roverman, you are quite right about her being a good-looking Copper - made my pulse race a bit.
Scottie Dog
Last edited by Scottie Dog; 28th Mar 2008 at 20:34.
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Can I echo Scottie Dog, it makes very interesting reading and will start development in a different direction from what has been seen over the last few years ie: T2 and associated ramp.
That has made think I will go and dig some of my old photos out of the old pier A and freight apron from early 70s just to compare
Ian
That has made think I will go and dig some of my old photos out of the old pier A and freight apron from early 70s just to compare
Ian
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Withdrawl of RET JB.
Many thanks Roverman for explaining the closure of RET JB.
However I know that Ops people realise the fact, that it'll be an utter disaster in the short term with regard to LVP ops!
You say that
. This will not, by any stretch of the imagination, be achieved quickly.
So in the interim we will only have one exit from runway 05L during LVP ops and that is exit J at the end of the runway!!! Standby for a lot of diversions away from Manchester. The holding delays will be awfull as I'd imagine the inbound arrival rate would be at around 8 / per hour or less. The departure rate will also suffer badly.
I'm sorry, but to be caught out like this is at best embarrassing but in truth downright incompetence. What are all the regular surveys undertaken on the infrastructure of the taxiway system for, if not to highlight the deterioration or likely failure of a surface before it gets anywhere near that stage?
The upgrade of Link H should have been completed BEFORE JB ever got near to failure.
Now you'll be faced with trying to explain to your customers - the passengers and the Airlines (Who appear to be leaving a steady pace at the moment) of why there is an increase in the length of delays, more cancellations and flights diverted away from Manchester because they couldn't hang around for long enough!
Ah but yes, I forgot there's always that best "Get out of jail free" card to play that not only airport management can use but also the airlines, and do on a regular basis to dig themselves out of a self inflicted embarrassments, and that is
" We apologise for the late arrival / departure of flight XXX to YYY, but it's due to Air Traffic Control Delays"
It might be, but whose put the ball and chain on their feet along with a ton of cement??
However I know that Ops people realise the fact, that it'll be an utter disaster in the short term with regard to LVP ops!
You say that
Work is planned to improve and upgrade the shallow-angled exit 'Hotel' for use in LVP
So in the interim we will only have one exit from runway 05L during LVP ops and that is exit J at the end of the runway!!! Standby for a lot of diversions away from Manchester. The holding delays will be awfull as I'd imagine the inbound arrival rate would be at around 8 / per hour or less. The departure rate will also suffer badly.
I'm sorry, but to be caught out like this is at best embarrassing but in truth downright incompetence. What are all the regular surveys undertaken on the infrastructure of the taxiway system for, if not to highlight the deterioration or likely failure of a surface before it gets anywhere near that stage?
The upgrade of Link H should have been completed BEFORE JB ever got near to failure.
Now you'll be faced with trying to explain to your customers - the passengers and the Airlines (Who appear to be leaving a steady pace at the moment) of why there is an increase in the length of delays, more cancellations and flights diverted away from Manchester because they couldn't hang around for long enough!
Ah but yes, I forgot there's always that best "Get out of jail free" card to play that not only airport management can use but also the airlines, and do on a regular basis to dig themselves out of a self inflicted embarrassments, and that is
" We apologise for the late arrival / departure of flight XXX to YYY, but it's due to Air Traffic Control Delays"
It might be, but whose put the ball and chain on their feet along with a ton of cement??
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Sorry to go back...
This stuff about EL AL
As a sprog from Bradford, back in the 1980s, the Canaries were just becoming a thing you could do from Leeds/Bradford. However Tenerife was possible, Lanzerote wasn't!
So...off to MAN we went, Uncle David taking us over the M62.
Horror, the Firemen were on strike! So as we checked in the news came through that we would be coached to (of all places) LBA for our flight. In those days Air Europe were handled by British Airways (I think - I was only a sprog) however our flight number started with UX. The check-in agent said 'Oh it's a new airline using OLD Air Europe planes'....anyway, down pier A and onto a bus back over the M62!!! The fact that Europa had 737-300s before Air Europe and when I saw her on the apron before the 32 tunnel [EC-EAK] I nearly wet myself, are things I'd rather not discuss given my poistion as a 34 year old!
On arrival at Leeds/Bradford the place was full of Police, which I knew was, well, abnormal, heck my Uncle Ken used to take little bro and myself to LBA most weekends in those days and usually it was quiet!
Once in departures looking out to the runway this smokey beast took-off, I have the reg somewhere in my records, I can still rememeber now it was a diverted EL AL Boeing 707 or (720 for purists) going back to Tel Aviv. Wonderful!
Anyway...EL AL used to come to MAN, unless the water faries were on strike!
As a sprog from Bradford, back in the 1980s, the Canaries were just becoming a thing you could do from Leeds/Bradford. However Tenerife was possible, Lanzerote wasn't!
So...off to MAN we went, Uncle David taking us over the M62.
Horror, the Firemen were on strike! So as we checked in the news came through that we would be coached to (of all places) LBA for our flight. In those days Air Europe were handled by British Airways (I think - I was only a sprog) however our flight number started with UX. The check-in agent said 'Oh it's a new airline using OLD Air Europe planes'....anyway, down pier A and onto a bus back over the M62!!! The fact that Europa had 737-300s before Air Europe and when I saw her on the apron before the 32 tunnel [EC-EAK] I nearly wet myself, are things I'd rather not discuss given my poistion as a 34 year old!
On arrival at Leeds/Bradford the place was full of Police, which I knew was, well, abnormal, heck my Uncle Ken used to take little bro and myself to LBA most weekends in those days and usually it was quiet!
Once in departures looking out to the runway this smokey beast took-off, I have the reg somewhere in my records, I can still rememeber now it was a diverted EL AL Boeing 707 or (720 for purists) going back to Tel Aviv. Wonderful!
Anyway...EL AL used to come to MAN, unless the water faries were on strike!
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Whilst I have a degree of agreement with Adola69 and his fears of a reduced landing rate in LVP conditions, I would add the following comment:
How often is 05L in use during LVPs? Normal met conditions for CAT111 operations tend to lead to a very low surface wind and more often than not with a westerly drift. So, whilst I agree with the basic concern, the chances of the delays building too much are low (says he with hand in mouth as we will probalby find 05L LVP operation tonight!!).
The next question then for Roverman is when can we expect to see 05R being upgraded to CAT111 status?
Scottie Dog
How often is 05L in use during LVPs? Normal met conditions for CAT111 operations tend to lead to a very low surface wind and more often than not with a westerly drift. So, whilst I agree with the basic concern, the chances of the delays building too much are low (says he with hand in mouth as we will probalby find 05L LVP operation tonight!!).
The next question then for Roverman is when can we expect to see 05R being upgraded to CAT111 status?
Scottie Dog
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Summer 08
Tomorrow sees the official introduction of the Summer timetable, and it is time to review what may, or may not, be happening.
Air Berlin - Paderborn increases to 6 per week
Finnair - New overnight stopper effective 4th May
China Airlines - Reduce to 2 per week.
Air Blue - Daily to Islamabad
Centralwings - ??? not a lot
Aer Lingus - Reduce to 3 per day on Dublin, 4 per week to Cork
easyJet - 2 Based A320 operating the former GB Airways routes
Ryanair - Gerona 4 per week, Bremen and Bergamo 3 per week each and Marseille 2 per week with non-based aircraft.
Jade Cargo - Still rumoured to be starting a twice weekly service to Shenzhen in August with 747-400F
Jet2 - Down to 6 based aircraft. AMS/BCN/TLS/SXF/VLC/PRG no longer operate.
Sky Europe - Daily Bratislava
CSA - Twice daily, but the overnight stopper has gone. New daily service arrives 0855z and departs 0940z.
Singapore - Daily
Eastern Airways - 4th Stansted service Mon-Thu
Mahan Air - Plan to re-introduce IKA service effective 4th June 4 times weekly with A310 (heard this before!!)
Turkish - Up from daily to 10 per week effective August.
TACV (Cabo Verde Airlines) - Weekly to Sal (SID)
SATA - Weekly to Ponta Delgarda with A320
Cancellations
Air Canada
Bmi - 8th LHR service will not operate
Cathay - Cargo reduced to 10 flights per week
There are, I am sure, more changes but I thought these might be of interest.
All the best
Scottie Dog
ps - don't forget the clocks change tonight (1 hour less in bed)
Air Berlin - Paderborn increases to 6 per week
Finnair - New overnight stopper effective 4th May
China Airlines - Reduce to 2 per week.
Air Blue - Daily to Islamabad
Centralwings - ??? not a lot
Aer Lingus - Reduce to 3 per day on Dublin, 4 per week to Cork
easyJet - 2 Based A320 operating the former GB Airways routes
Ryanair - Gerona 4 per week, Bremen and Bergamo 3 per week each and Marseille 2 per week with non-based aircraft.
Jade Cargo - Still rumoured to be starting a twice weekly service to Shenzhen in August with 747-400F
Jet2 - Down to 6 based aircraft. AMS/BCN/TLS/SXF/VLC/PRG no longer operate.
Sky Europe - Daily Bratislava
CSA - Twice daily, but the overnight stopper has gone. New daily service arrives 0855z and departs 0940z.
Singapore - Daily
Eastern Airways - 4th Stansted service Mon-Thu
Mahan Air - Plan to re-introduce IKA service effective 4th June 4 times weekly with A310 (heard this before!!)
Turkish - Up from daily to 10 per week effective August.
TACV (Cabo Verde Airlines) - Weekly to Sal (SID)
SATA - Weekly to Ponta Delgarda with A320
Cancellations
Air Canada
Bmi - 8th LHR service will not operate
Cathay - Cargo reduced to 10 flights per week
There are, I am sure, more changes but I thought these might be of interest.
All the best
Scottie Dog
ps - don't forget the clocks change tonight (1 hour less in bed)
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..surely the chances of an A380 diversion are remote anyway.....
Yep would agree with that but you have to take into account crosswind, snow, runway blockages etc etc.
Given those blasted chappies at Eurocontrol the chances of seing anything from EGLL/EGKK due to fog are pretty slim nowdays as they just bloody keep ebrything on the deck in Europe and introduce rates per hour.
Like i said the chances are slim but it can and will happen, the other morning (as per my previous post) she was looking at diverting due to a contaminated runway and lots of CB's in the area......got in in the end though
Geee i remeber the good old days of Bimen 707's parked on the taxiways !!!!
Anyone got a time machine i can lend ???
Yep would agree with that but you have to take into account crosswind, snow, runway blockages etc etc.
Given those blasted chappies at Eurocontrol the chances of seing anything from EGLL/EGKK due to fog are pretty slim nowdays as they just bloody keep ebrything on the deck in Europe and introduce rates per hour.
Like i said the chances are slim but it can and will happen, the other morning (as per my previous post) she was looking at diverting due to a contaminated runway and lots of CB's in the area......got in in the end though
Geee i remeber the good old days of Bimen 707's parked on the taxiways !!!!
Anyone got a time machine i can lend ???
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Thanks to Roverman for the update.
Precisely Scottie - how often are we in LVP on 05 and how many additional delays/ diversions away could we expect? Very few if any I reckon. I think Adola 69 has greatly overestimated the effects of the loss of JB in LVP in his "We're all doomed Cpt Mainwaring" style post.
Surely the greater impact of losing JB will be felt when we are on single runway operation on 05L in the lunchtime or evening periods. The 1200 -1500 period can get very busy for movements and this will further reduce the single runway capability which is already less on 05L than 23R due to less RETs - er well none now - and less holding space to sequence departures efficiently.
You can only declare runway capacity as a single figure and I believe this is done on the capability in the 23 direction which is more often in use - and would be a higher figure anyway. So when MAN is on 05L single runway, for any given flow of traffic, the likelyhood/magnitude of delay was always higher anyway and the loss of JB will exacerbate this.
So some questions
A far more important issue to sort out is getting approvals for dual runway LVP operation. What is the state of play with this? To go down from a declared two runway capacity of 60/hour or whatever to single runway LVP (ops - 20 ish/hour?) is what causes lots of disruption. LVP in the mornings - the most likely time of day -causes huge amounts of delays for the first wave of departures and knocks on for the rest of the day.
In addition Roverman said
How long is the medium term? Will the lunchtime gap ever be filled with movement totals on the decline as there is a cost implication of filling it in?
I suppose this is the wider dilemma - can the Airport justify additional expenditure on this (and other infrastructure projects) with movement and passenger numbers falling? Filling this gap requires additional controllers to be recruited, trained and validated. Meanwhile, the bigger projects take some time to plan and deliver -in some case years - whilst the industry changes much more rapidly and airlines can add/subtract capacity relatively quickly. It's a very risky business out there, especially for airport investments.
Suzeman
How often is 05L in use during LVPs?
Surely the greater impact of losing JB will be felt when we are on single runway operation on 05L in the lunchtime or evening periods. The 1200 -1500 period can get very busy for movements and this will further reduce the single runway capability which is already less on 05L than 23R due to less RETs - er well none now - and less holding space to sequence departures efficiently.
You can only declare runway capacity as a single figure and I believe this is done on the capability in the 23 direction which is more often in use - and would be a higher figure anyway. So when MAN is on 05L single runway, for any given flow of traffic, the likelyhood/magnitude of delay was always higher anyway and the loss of JB will exacerbate this.
So some questions
A far more important issue to sort out is getting approvals for dual runway LVP operation. What is the state of play with this? To go down from a declared two runway capacity of 60/hour or whatever to single runway LVP (ops - 20 ish/hour?) is what causes lots of disruption. LVP in the mornings - the most likely time of day -causes huge amounts of delays for the first wave of departures and knocks on for the rest of the day.
In addition Roverman said
All-day use of 05R-23L will be introduced in the medium term, with 05R the primary arrival runway on 'easterlies'
I suppose this is the wider dilemma - can the Airport justify additional expenditure on this (and other infrastructure projects) with movement and passenger numbers falling? Filling this gap requires additional controllers to be recruited, trained and validated. Meanwhile, the bigger projects take some time to plan and deliver -in some case years - whilst the industry changes much more rapidly and airlines can add/subtract capacity relatively quickly. It's a very risky business out there, especially for airport investments.
Suzeman