PRESTWICK
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GLAbear
Nice sentiments but before we all start a GLA bear love in, pray tell what exactly did Infratil mess up? armchairs managers are like armchair pilots on this forum two a penny.
In the days before APD and the break up of what was BAA PIK was at the centre of the then new LoCo boom time with super cheap flights to Scotland from the Midlands and London with the like of FR & WW prices were a fraction of what you would have to pay for the BA shuttle or bmi into GLA, cheap travel was new and novel, many a traveller got of aircraft all over Europe thinking where the f**k have we landed??? it might have said Glasgow on the online booking system but for many it was like booking Manchester and landing in Liverpool, nice place but not where i wanted to go, bmibaby quickly moved to GLA.
So GLAbear as they say when investing money "previous performance is no indication of future performance" and that's the difference between sentiment and business sense, like you i have also been made redundant and don't wish it on anyone, but that alone does not justify keeping open an airport or any business, especially one funded by local Government/taxpayers, which if it continues to prop up PIK without any clear business case for a return on investment is likely to distort the local market and the loser in this case will be without doubt GLA international.
Every flight that lands at PIK may have a few people visiting the Ayrshire coast or local business but the majority will be up the road to GLA to where they wanted to be in the first place, they landed at PIK only because FR offered very cheap fares and they are cheap because they are operating to an airport that is burning cash and needing a Government subsidy to stay open, so GLABear PIK is a bigger threat to you being made redundant at GLA by staying open when there is no or little business case for 3 international airports in the central belt and i like many others smell SNP votes as the main driver here
In the days before APD and the break up of what was BAA PIK was at the centre of the then new LoCo boom time with super cheap flights to Scotland from the Midlands and London with the like of FR & WW prices were a fraction of what you would have to pay for the BA shuttle or bmi into GLA, cheap travel was new and novel, many a traveller got of aircraft all over Europe thinking where the f**k have we landed??? it might have said Glasgow on the online booking system but for many it was like booking Manchester and landing in Liverpool, nice place but not where i wanted to go, bmibaby quickly moved to GLA.
So GLAbear as they say when investing money "previous performance is no indication of future performance" and that's the difference between sentiment and business sense, like you i have also been made redundant and don't wish it on anyone, but that alone does not justify keeping open an airport or any business, especially one funded by local Government/taxpayers, which if it continues to prop up PIK without any clear business case for a return on investment is likely to distort the local market and the loser in this case will be without doubt GLA international.
Every flight that lands at PIK may have a few people visiting the Ayrshire coast or local business but the majority will be up the road to GLA to where they wanted to be in the first place, they landed at PIK only because FR offered very cheap fares and they are cheap because they are operating to an airport that is burning cash and needing a Government subsidy to stay open, so GLABear PIK is a bigger threat to you being made redundant at GLA by staying open when there is no or little business case for 3 international airports in the central belt and i like many others smell SNP votes as the main driver here
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I think that's about half way right, PIK is actually pretty handy if you're going to GLA, so nowadays I don't think remoteness is the main issue. PIK rode a loco bubble back in the day but what Stagecoach and Infratil did was get big ideas based on the bubble and allowed their cost base to rise. The figures in the strategic transport review submitted by the then owners back in the early 2000s are particularly optimistic....
Gloebspan tried and moved out, BMI baby did the same, Wizz Air have also come to the same conclusion and moved to GLA.
The elephant in the room is "What is PIK actually for?"
Now I can agree with the cargo, training and maintenance but to have the taxpayer bailing out a business predicated on making a return off Ryanair, *after* the said airline removed most of their inbound rourtes to EDI, is skewing the market and undermining a commercial competitor at GLA. The legality of this must be questionable, in the same way it has been questioned all across Europe. One of the airports PIK was connected to in the bubble years is closing btw, anyone remember Lubeck (Hamburg)?
Investing in the current terminal is throwing good money after bad because it's not remotely fit for the purpose for which it is being used and is a huge cost to the business. However the business case for knocking it down and rebuilding on a much smaller scale just has no return on that investment, so the result is a typical high cost fudge until the election...
There is barely a commercial requirement for two airports in the central belt and certainly not three. A properly central airport with rail links going East, West and North would be more Dublin sized in terms of traffic as opposed to the continual local East Coast / West Coast stramash that has given us an EDI performing well beyond a role for which it was never designed and a GLA that can actually sit almost empty outwith peak hours in the summer. I counted a single Loganair SF340 on the apron one day in July last summer, something I would never have imagined growing up with SD360s and 748s in and out all the time.
The traffic patterns have changed massively, it's just the infrastructure is not up to the mark.
Recent planning calamities suggest the talent pool is as thin as puddle of gnat's p*** as ever :
Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh Trams
Glasgow Rail Link
Gloebspan tried and moved out, BMI baby did the same, Wizz Air have also come to the same conclusion and moved to GLA.
The elephant in the room is "What is PIK actually for?"
Now I can agree with the cargo, training and maintenance but to have the taxpayer bailing out a business predicated on making a return off Ryanair, *after* the said airline removed most of their inbound rourtes to EDI, is skewing the market and undermining a commercial competitor at GLA. The legality of this must be questionable, in the same way it has been questioned all across Europe. One of the airports PIK was connected to in the bubble years is closing btw, anyone remember Lubeck (Hamburg)?
Investing in the current terminal is throwing good money after bad because it's not remotely fit for the purpose for which it is being used and is a huge cost to the business. However the business case for knocking it down and rebuilding on a much smaller scale just has no return on that investment, so the result is a typical high cost fudge until the election...
There is barely a commercial requirement for two airports in the central belt and certainly not three. A properly central airport with rail links going East, West and North would be more Dublin sized in terms of traffic as opposed to the continual local East Coast / West Coast stramash that has given us an EDI performing well beyond a role for which it was never designed and a GLA that can actually sit almost empty outwith peak hours in the summer. I counted a single Loganair SF340 on the apron one day in July last summer, something I would never have imagined growing up with SD360s and 748s in and out all the time.
The traffic patterns have changed massively, it's just the infrastructure is not up to the mark.
Recent planning calamities suggest the talent pool is as thin as puddle of gnat's p*** as ever :
Scottish Parliament
Edinburgh Trams
Glasgow Rail Link
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 23rd Jun 2014 at 11:19.
Chieftan o'the Pudden Race
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Airth is the posh name of the Central Scotland Airport opened in May 1939 and became RAF Grangemouth in September 1939.
It remained open until the mid-1950s when there was murmurings of making it an airport for Central Scotland. Nothing ever came of it and Grangemouth oil refinery was built on the land occupied by the airfield. I can vaguely remember seeing pictures of a KLM aircraft at Grangemouth, in fact here it is:
It would have been the perfect place to build an airport if you resite the oil refinery and power station on the other side of the Forth; it has rail links and motorway links very close by and is about as central as you can get, from a population point of view, for Scotland. It will never happen of course, at least not in my lifetime.
Prestwick can operate in a supporting role for both GLA and EDI handling freight, MRO and diversion traffic, but I won't be holding my breath to see any significant changes at PIK. There are too many vested interests and PIK is likely to be used a political football. Being totally reliant on Ryanair is a dangerous game to play, as they will make decisions that will be in their own interests, as many marginal airports have found to their terminal cost all around Europe.
If Ryanair get made a better offer by GLA, you can bet they will move up the A77 before you can say Route Development Fund.
It remained open until the mid-1950s when there was murmurings of making it an airport for Central Scotland. Nothing ever came of it and Grangemouth oil refinery was built on the land occupied by the airfield. I can vaguely remember seeing pictures of a KLM aircraft at Grangemouth, in fact here it is:
It would have been the perfect place to build an airport if you resite the oil refinery and power station on the other side of the Forth; it has rail links and motorway links very close by and is about as central as you can get, from a population point of view, for Scotland. It will never happen of course, at least not in my lifetime.
Prestwick can operate in a supporting role for both GLA and EDI handling freight, MRO and diversion traffic, but I won't be holding my breath to see any significant changes at PIK. There are too many vested interests and PIK is likely to be used a political football. Being totally reliant on Ryanair is a dangerous game to play, as they will make decisions that will be in their own interests, as many marginal airports have found to their terminal cost all around Europe.
If Ryanair get made a better offer by GLA, you can bet they will move up the A77 before you can say Route Development Fund.
Airth is the posh name of the Central Scotland Airport opened in May 1939 and became RAF Grangemouth in September 1939.
But more recently (late 60s/early 70s), and again in a study about 30 years later, Airth was once more identified as a possible location for a Central Scotland Airport, to replace both Edinburgh and Glasgow airports.
Edit: "Scale" model of the original Central Scotland Airport aka RAF Grangemouth at the local Heritage Trust Museum:
Last edited by DaveReidUK; 23rd Jun 2014 at 15:45.
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Speaking of politics, it was only when the local MP, George Younger retired from his marginal Conservative held constituency, that PIK came under threat with the loss of it's transatlantic gateway status back in early 1990. All politics is local....
Join Date: Oct 2013
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Skippy and Facelookbovered, As soon as one posts on here the other has to post a simlilar negative comment , Its like groundhog day. Same old long winded boring posts. Can you please change the record please because it seems to be stuck............
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Well said Wind Sock, and all credit to you for continuing to post. For months now any positive post attracts these same old diatribes, and so there becomes no point in posting because it'll just start them up again. And once again it doesn't all revolve around Ryanair, with today 2 IL76s, German tanker A310, RAF A330, Gulfstream and Pilatus deliveries, and a haven for a Mayday C130 an hour ago which had to evacuate on 'M'. Get the cost base right and money is there, as is the strategic importance.
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1) There's no evidence they have any idea as to how to get the cost base right, certainly not with the taxpayer turning the taps on.
2) How do you plan to make money out of FR?
Btw all the non FR stuff is the same market Manston was dealing in, albeit with less success.
Cargolux freighters? Tick.
Storage? Tick.
Base training? Tick.
PIK3141 is there any reason a commercially viable business at GLA or EDI can't deal with Pilatus deliveries? Wick even deals with them. I used to agree on "strategic importance" but seriously, the slack can easily be taken up elsewhere, it's *all* about local jobs and politics now, just like Shannon oddly enough. There's is not a hope in Hell a left of centre group of public sector junkies can fix this. Happy to be proved wrong btw.....
2) How do you plan to make money out of FR?
Btw all the non FR stuff is the same market Manston was dealing in, albeit with less success.
Cargolux freighters? Tick.
Storage? Tick.
Base training? Tick.
PIK3141 is there any reason a commercially viable business at GLA or EDI can't deal with Pilatus deliveries? Wick even deals with them. I used to agree on "strategic importance" but seriously, the slack can easily be taken up elsewhere, it's *all* about local jobs and politics now, just like Shannon oddly enough. There's is not a hope in Hell a left of centre group of public sector junkies can fix this. Happy to be proved wrong btw.....
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I'm with Skippy on this one
Wind sock your the long playing record, neither Skippy's or my post was negative about PIK, just in our view realistic, just because you believe in the viability of PIK will not make it so....it needs customers, lots of them and the LoCo game has moved on, even Ryanair have come to realise that flying to some strip miles from where people want to go is not the way forward, its all well and good saying you can be in GLA in next to no time, but the bottom line is people want to land where they want to go......its not a difficult concept to grasp.
If Scottish taxpayers are willing to stump up the cash to keep it open, then all well and good, but post the referendum Ms Sturgeon will need to address the cost of this and £10m+ of taxpayers money to provide a facility that already exists without taxpayers money will be very difficult to justify MOD tankers could just as easily land at any number of airports, just think of the number of nurses or teachers that would fund.......
I have used PIK for base circuits, why because its quiet..no dead and i can get a lot of circuits done without the expense of been vectored around commercial traffic, if your just a spotter buy a bus pass to a proper airport with traffic to get your fix, i used to use LBA & EMA but they got too busy, PIK attraction for most is the lack of traffic............
If Scottish taxpayers are willing to stump up the cash to keep it open, then all well and good, but post the referendum Ms Sturgeon will need to address the cost of this and £10m+ of taxpayers money to provide a facility that already exists without taxpayers money will be very difficult to justify MOD tankers could just as easily land at any number of airports, just think of the number of nurses or teachers that would fund.......
I have used PIK for base circuits, why because its quiet..no dead and i can get a lot of circuits done without the expense of been vectored around commercial traffic, if your just a spotter buy a bus pass to a proper airport with traffic to get your fix, i used to use LBA & EMA but they got too busy, PIK attraction for most is the lack of traffic............
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BHD?
It would be great to see a flight to BHD back in operation. I used the FR service and with less than 20 mins in the air, it was fantastic. Surely this would be more attractive than taking a coach to Cairnryan and then the ferry and vv.
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Thanks Pik3141. These people ( Skippy and Facey ) post the same stuff every single time , i.e Prestwick has no future , Glasgow and Edinburgh should take prestwicks traffic , The scottish government have wasted tax payers money blah blah blah .. This aint a political forum . We have heard your views time and time again , so please dont repeat it on every post, its boring people on here. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . Facey your posts are always negative against prestwick and so is your good friend kangaroo boy. Its laughable that the two of you always post together.
With regards to Airports and Cities . Is it such a big deal that it takes 40 minutes to get into Glasgow City Centre if in fact they are going to Glasgow , Considering Scotland has a few great places to visit.? Do you expect to fly to London and expect to step out plane and through the gates of buckingham palace in under 5 minutes ? I dont think so ..........
Nope no spotter here, As for your circuits, We dont care..... Here's 50p go phone someone who gives a .... about ur boring circuits. In fact phone skippy..
Youve got his number............
With regards to Airports and Cities . Is it such a big deal that it takes 40 minutes to get into Glasgow City Centre if in fact they are going to Glasgow , Considering Scotland has a few great places to visit.? Do you expect to fly to London and expect to step out plane and through the gates of buckingham palace in under 5 minutes ? I dont think so ..........
Nope no spotter here, As for your circuits, We dont care..... Here's 50p go phone someone who gives a .... about ur boring circuits. In fact phone skippy..
Youve got his number............
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These people ( Skippy and Facey ) post the same stuff every single time
There are some big questions, the main ones being how to get costs down and make money with Ryanair, neither of which were answered by the Deputy First Minister. I would be keen to hear your thoughts and business plan to fix what no one has been able to manange since Stagecoach bailed out to Infratil.
Try and address FLB's point instead of name calling please.
Airlines who fly to PIK do not stick around, WW, GSM, RE and W6 have all chosen GLA after trying PIK. IT charters were forced out when FR moved into sun routes. Hence Ryanair is all PIK is likely to get and they cannot make money out of that. So how do you, as an interested party, change that?
Or do you support a permanent government subsidy so that Ryanair can stay in PIK and save jobs, even though that is likely to be challenged in court?
With regards to Airports and Cities . Is it such a big deal that it takes 40 minutes to get into Glasgow City Centre if in fact they are going to Glasgow , Considering Scotland has a few great places to visit.? Do you expect to fly to London and expect to step out plane and through the gates of buckingham palace in under 5 minutes ? I dont think so ..........
Because too many people prefer to fly from Glasgow Airport over PIK as it has a larger catchment area. What's your plan to address this?
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The other point to take into consideration in relation to why Wizz etc moved to GLA is not so much distance from the city centre but the fact that GLA is much more aggressive in terms of attempting to attract airlines than they were under BAA. GLA have been losing out to EDI over the last few years and as a result the apron at Abbotsinch can be deserted at off peak times (with on occasion more planes on the ground at PIK!).
I would love to see the consultant's full report for the future of PIK as I am struggling to see how PIK can grow its passenger side without damaging GLA , something which the Scottish Government says it wont allow. My view is that the airport / airfield can go two ways:
1. A modest FR Pax operation which would mean that PIK holds on to the FR maintenance operation. As has been highlightrd before by SOE a new efficient terminal would be preferred with the old terminsl either demolished or turned into a National Museum of Flight?
2. Pax operations binned and the focus on freight, military, training, FBO, golf / Trump charters, fuel / tech stops, SAR, maintenance etc. and again the Museum of Flight idea appeals to me .
I do believe PIK as an airfield has a future and a profitable one but only in the right hands. Personally i'd be sad to see the pax flights go as its easy for me only living five minutes up the road but I am a realist
I would love to see the consultant's full report for the future of PIK as I am struggling to see how PIK can grow its passenger side without damaging GLA , something which the Scottish Government says it wont allow. My view is that the airport / airfield can go two ways:
1. A modest FR Pax operation which would mean that PIK holds on to the FR maintenance operation. As has been highlightrd before by SOE a new efficient terminal would be preferred with the old terminsl either demolished or turned into a National Museum of Flight?
2. Pax operations binned and the focus on freight, military, training, FBO, golf / Trump charters, fuel / tech stops, SAR, maintenance etc. and again the Museum of Flight idea appeals to me .
I do believe PIK as an airfield has a future and a profitable one but only in the right hands. Personally i'd be sad to see the pax flights go as its easy for me only living five minutes up the road but I am a realist
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There's room for two museums in Scotland. East Fortune's a great wee musuem but if PIK is supposedly not easy to access then East Fortune is way worse. If you think of the tremendous number of excellent aviation musuems in England then Scotland is very badly served by having only one true musuem that celebrates its aviation history. Im sure the so called carbuncle could be easily converted.
Could PIK become a new Le Bourget? Whilst it would never match the volume of biz jet traffic Le Bourget is surely a model of a profitable non-pax airport that PIK coukd potentially aspire to?
Could PIK become a new Le Bourget? Whilst it would never match the volume of biz jet traffic Le Bourget is surely a model of a profitable non-pax airport that PIK coukd potentially aspire to?
12-30 Windsock
Your profile says you're 33 - however that is one of the most juvenile postings I have seen in a while!
Have you no idea about the economics of running a large airfield, maintaining facilities etc. when the airport's main operator comes from the school of airline management that says an airline shouldn't have to pay for the facilities they use?
Nobody wants to see PIK close; nor for that matter other places such as MME, BLK, CVT, MSE (already gone); but tax payers can't be expected to stump up money to keep a few people employed in Ayrshire - and keep a band of spotters happy.
Hopefully, a cost effective solution for PIK can be found, but it won't be found through political intervention, but through hardnosed business decisions.
Thanks Pik3141. These people ( Skippy and Facey ) post the same stuff every single time , i.e Prestwick has no future , Glasgow and Edinburgh should take prestwicks traffic , The scottish government have wasted tax payers money blah blah blah .. This aint a political forum . We have heard your views time and time again , so please dont repeat it on every post, its boring people on here. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz . Facey your posts are always negative against prestwick and so is your good friend kangaroo boy. Its laughable that the two of you always post together.
With regards to Airports and Cities . Is it such a big deal that it takes 40 minutes to get into Glasgow City Centre if in fact they are going to Glasgow , Considering Scotland has a few great places to visit.? Do you expect to fly to London and expect to step out plane and through the gates of buckingham palace in under 5 minutes ? I dont think so ..........
Nope no spotter here, As for your circuits, We dont care..... Here's 50p go phone someone who gives a .... about ur boring circuits. In fact phone skippy.. Youve got his number............
With regards to Airports and Cities . Is it such a big deal that it takes 40 minutes to get into Glasgow City Centre if in fact they are going to Glasgow , Considering Scotland has a few great places to visit.? Do you expect to fly to London and expect to step out plane and through the gates of buckingham palace in under 5 minutes ? I dont think so ..........
Nope no spotter here, As for your circuits, We dont care..... Here's 50p go phone someone who gives a .... about ur boring circuits. In fact phone skippy.. Youve got his number............
Have you no idea about the economics of running a large airfield, maintaining facilities etc. when the airport's main operator comes from the school of airline management that says an airline shouldn't have to pay for the facilities they use?
Nobody wants to see PIK close; nor for that matter other places such as MME, BLK, CVT, MSE (already gone); but tax payers can't be expected to stump up money to keep a few people employed in Ayrshire - and keep a band of spotters happy.
Hopefully, a cost effective solution for PIK can be found, but it won't be found through political intervention, but through hardnosed business decisions.