DUNDEE
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You're talking about before LCY massively hiked their fees for smaller aircraft, this also killed Eastern's NCL service. At a stroke they made it much more difficult to make money using the Do328.
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If LCY want the route then a deal will be done, Skywork were ready to relocate the Bern route to STN earlier this year because of LCY handling price rises, and when push came to shove a deal was negotiated. LCY need the business, simple as that.
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Until very recently CFE were expanding with bigger aircraft and the airport wanted to make best use of peak slots which meant forcing out the smaller players via prohibitive pricing. This is the same GIP who pulled an identical stunt on flybe and Air Southwest at LGW.
What has changed at LCY in terms of Skywork is twofold. Firstly they also fly the larger DHC8-Q402 and secondly, the number two operator at LCY, CityJet, looks very vulnerable to closure.
Hence they now have a more pressing need. It would be a complete about turn for Loganair to do this, they're not known to be bold, that's why they're still around!
What has changed at LCY in terms of Skywork is twofold. Firstly they also fly the larger DHC8-Q402 and secondly, the number two operator at LCY, CityJet, looks very vulnerable to closure.
Hence they now have a more pressing need. It would be a complete about turn for Loganair to do this, they're not known to be bold, that's why they're still around!
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Firstly they also fly the larger DHC8-Q402
I seriously doubt that any of the current Dornier 328 operators into London City pay the published fees. Notwithstanding this, I do believe that the Dundee route could be better served from another cheaper London Airport, with a slightly larger aircraft, so some lower fares could be offered.
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For those interested in the technical aspects of the airfield, the NATS data for DND is available here; NATS | AIS - Home
Runway 09/27 is 1400m x 30m with PCN 27/F/D/Y/T so that restricts the type of aircraft that can use the airfield and, more importantly from a commercial perspective, the payload range of such aircraft. As has been pointed out, it's difficult to offer competitive fares and make a profit using the kinds of aircraft that have been operated from Dundee in recent years especially given the high level of airport charges and APD that are imposed.
It might be possible to extend the runway to around 2,000m by buying the adjacent university playing fields and perhaps the runway could be strengthened to better suit A320 / B738 sized aircraft but who would be prepared to fund such an expensive project when the residents of Dundee and the local area have not made sufficient use of the services that have been provided in recent years?
When Edinburgh Gateway rail station is built this will further undermine the economic case for investment in Dundee Airport.
It's difficult to see a future for commercial air services from Dundee Airport without significant government policy intervention and subsidy. Is it best use of tax payer's money to be continually subsidising an airport such as Dundee given its proximity to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen airports? Passengers from Dundee's potential catchment area appear to be voting with their feet and their wallets and choosing airports other than their own. If they want to keep their commercial air service, and if it's not already too late, they need to use it or they may lose it.
Runway 09/27 is 1400m x 30m with PCN 27/F/D/Y/T so that restricts the type of aircraft that can use the airfield and, more importantly from a commercial perspective, the payload range of such aircraft. As has been pointed out, it's difficult to offer competitive fares and make a profit using the kinds of aircraft that have been operated from Dundee in recent years especially given the high level of airport charges and APD that are imposed.
It might be possible to extend the runway to around 2,000m by buying the adjacent university playing fields and perhaps the runway could be strengthened to better suit A320 / B738 sized aircraft but who would be prepared to fund such an expensive project when the residents of Dundee and the local area have not made sufficient use of the services that have been provided in recent years?
When Edinburgh Gateway rail station is built this will further undermine the economic case for investment in Dundee Airport.
It's difficult to see a future for commercial air services from Dundee Airport without significant government policy intervention and subsidy. Is it best use of tax payer's money to be continually subsidising an airport such as Dundee given its proximity to Edinburgh, Glasgow and Aberdeen airports? Passengers from Dundee's potential catchment area appear to be voting with their feet and their wallets and choosing airports other than their own. If they want to keep their commercial air service, and if it's not already too late, they need to use it or they may lose it.
Porrohman, I was wondering about the possibilities of extending the runway,but, CAP168 suggests that once the runway exceeds 1200m the distance from the runway centre line to taxiway centreline has to be increased from 87 m to 160 ish m and that is a greater distance than is available between the terminal and the runway.
Basically it appears that the runway is too short and if lengthened the airport land area will be too small to allow the upgrade and the runway remains too narrow for normal 737/320 ops, even if the whole runway was strengthened to PCN 55.
The way I see it, the airport would need to move the terminal to the west end and displace the existing industry , lay whole new runway (wiping out the playing fields), new taxi way, new parking apron big enough to accommodate 3-4 737s and an ILS for 28 with approach lighting if it were to succeed. It would also need a couple of Runway End Safety Areas or some kind of arrester surface. Im not sure what effect the active danger area 7 miles east has on the likelihood of getting a second ILS nor if there are obstacles that might prevent it.
I can't help thinking that a luxury coach service to Edinburgh airport would be more cost effective for the 3 dozen passenger that the existing flights cary
bb
Basically it appears that the runway is too short and if lengthened the airport land area will be too small to allow the upgrade and the runway remains too narrow for normal 737/320 ops, even if the whole runway was strengthened to PCN 55.
The way I see it, the airport would need to move the terminal to the west end and displace the existing industry , lay whole new runway (wiping out the playing fields), new taxi way, new parking apron big enough to accommodate 3-4 737s and an ILS for 28 with approach lighting if it were to succeed. It would also need a couple of Runway End Safety Areas or some kind of arrester surface. Im not sure what effect the active danger area 7 miles east has on the likelihood of getting a second ILS nor if there are obstacles that might prevent it.
I can't help thinking that a luxury coach service to Edinburgh airport would be more cost effective for the 3 dozen passenger that the existing flights cary
bb
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That's a good point regarding the proximity of the runway bb. It drives the costs of improvements even higher.
I agree. Do these three dozen passengers warrant the public subsidy that is currently needed, far less that which would be necessary to improve the airfield? Many will argue that there are better uses of public money and I wouldn't disagree.
bb - I can't help thinking that a luxury coach service to Edinburgh airport would be more cost effective for the 3 dozen passenger that the existing flights carry.
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Lots of arguments missing the point of Dundee Airport.
If you want to travel for £5 you can get a poxy bus all the way to Prestwick and travel on Pikeyair, having taken hours to get there. You could get a luxury coach to Edinburgh, taking you an hour or so, then spend another hour (minimum) getting through the airport and onto the plane. That would save you a few quid as well. Take half a day mind you but you'd maybe save the price of a tankful of petrol or so at the end of the day.
Or you can take half an hour to get from your car to the plane at Dundee and be in London before your luxury coach or poxy Prestwick Megabus even pulls into the airport.
There may be better ways to spend public money but as lots of it seems to get pissed away by incompetent public officials I would say it will be well spent on Dundee. And that's before you even start to consider the fact that it will become a significant tourist destination in its own right when the V&A opens.
If you want to travel for £5 you can get a poxy bus all the way to Prestwick and travel on Pikeyair, having taken hours to get there. You could get a luxury coach to Edinburgh, taking you an hour or so, then spend another hour (minimum) getting through the airport and onto the plane. That would save you a few quid as well. Take half a day mind you but you'd maybe save the price of a tankful of petrol or so at the end of the day.
Or you can take half an hour to get from your car to the plane at Dundee and be in London before your luxury coach or poxy Prestwick Megabus even pulls into the airport.
There may be better ways to spend public money but as lots of it seems to get pissed away by incompetent public officials I would say it will be well spent on Dundee. And that's before you even start to consider the fact that it will become a significant tourist destination in its own right when the V&A opens.
DB6 - yes it is a lot faster from central Dundee to central London to use Dundee airport rather than any other airport. Question is more - will those passengers pay significantly more in airfares above the current level to cover passenger operation costs incurred by HIAL or is it eceonomically worthwhile Govt spending £3m+ of taxes per year on the status quo with a PSO route ? It seems to work out at Govt paying approx £100 for 1 person making a one way flight. The airport's website promotes the airport for its proximity to St Andrews - how much of the golf tourist money finds its way to Dundee based companies companies and residents ?
If having the airport generates clear economic benefits (eg jobs) for Tayside then definitely worth the cash. If not, then perhaps the money could be used in other ways such as improved skills training for the unemployed in Dundee ? Just because Govt wastes money in some areas does not mean one should possibly waste it in other areas as well
If having the airport generates clear economic benefits (eg jobs) for Tayside then definitely worth the cash. If not, then perhaps the money could be used in other ways such as improved skills training for the unemployed in Dundee ? Just because Govt wastes money in some areas does not mean one should possibly waste it in other areas as well
DB6,
The sad thing is that the Dundee passenger cannot get to London City before 10 am on the Feb timetable v/s 0805 am from Edinburgh and has to wait till 2025 to fly back, meanwhile those who go via Edinburgh will have had the choice of 3 flights arriving before 10am and will be able to get home on a choice of 5 flights between 1600 and 2200 rather than only 2200 into Dundee.
There are 66 people working for the airport so lets just hope that the airport can survive in some form, even if it can't become a big airport.
bb
Or you can take half an hour to get from your car to the plane at Dundee and be in London before your luxury coach
There are 66 people working for the airport so lets just hope that the airport can survive in some form, even if it can't become a big airport.
bb
Join Date: Apr 1999
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DUNDEE
PSOs I think will specify better slot times; with subsidy numbers will rise - who knows?
Personally I would like to see the BHX route restarted, together with maybe Dublin or Belfast again. Towards the end the BHX route was seeing high pax numbers and seemed viable. Big problem was always publicity, nobody outside Dundee seemed to know it existed.
Personally I would like to see the BHX route restarted, together with maybe Dublin or Belfast again. Towards the end the BHX route was seeing high pax numbers and seemed viable. Big problem was always publicity, nobody outside Dundee seemed to know it existed.
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DB 6 wrote; Personally I would like to see the BHX route restarted, together with maybe Dublin or Belfast again. Towards the end the BHX route was seeing high pax numbers and seemed viable. Big problem was always publicity, nobody outside Dundee seemed to know it existed.
I don't doubt that flying from Dundee Airport is much more convenient than having to travel to Edinburgh, Glasgow or Aberdeen but does this convenience for a tiny number of people justify the enormous public subsidy?
According to an article in the Courier last March, ( Fears over Dundee Airport?s future after further passenger decline - Dundee / Local / News / The Courier ) Dundee airport attracts fewer passengers than Benbecula. In February 2013 Dundee had an average of 71.5 passengers per day. Assuming that these are evenly spread between arrivals and departures then, on average, 35.75 passengers arrived each day and 35.75 departed. If the £2.7m subsidy is spread evenly across the year then these passengers are being subsidised by £104 per sector / £208 per return despite paying, according to the Courier, £400 per return (NB. fares can be as high as £613 return and as low as £149). Even at £400 return (which excludes the subsidy), the airline is not making enough money so, one year on, they are withdrawing the service. What price would the fares need to be for the operation to be self sustaining without subsidy? £700 return? £800 return? And, if so, how many would be prepared to pay this?
Given a choice of much cheaper fares and very frequent services to a choice of five airports in London from Edinburgh / Aberdeen, or much higher fares and low frequency from Dundee to LCY, the vast majority of Dundonians have clearly favoured flying from elsewhere rather than from Dundee.
For commercial services from Dundee airport to have succeeded, sufficient people within the catchment area needed to have used the services that were introduced, at the time that they were introduced, and they needed to be prepared to pay fares that allowed the operators to turn in a profit. Despite massive subsidies towards the costs of running the airport, Dundonians weren't prepared to do this so they lost some routes and had the frequency to LCY reduced. Public subsidy and public service obligations are not a long term solution to a fundamental and demonstrable preference on the part of Dundonians to use other airports because of better choice, better frequencies and lower fares.
When Edinburgh Gateway station opens it will be possible to reach Edinburgh Airport by rail then tram from Dundee in about 1 hour 15 minutes which is about the same amount of time as it takes to reach Heathrow, Gatwick or Stansted from many parts of central London. At present, it takes about 1 hour 45 by train / bus or just over an hour by car from Dundee to Edinburgh Airport. By international standards this is not an unreasonable or untypical journey time to and from an airport. Why should he public purse subsidise an average of 35.75 departing passengers per day to the tune of £208 per return flight when the alternative of flying from Edinburgh is just over an hour's drive away?
Last edited by Porrohman; 30th Dec 2013 at 17:35. Reason: Corrected subsidy figure
Join Date: Apr 1999
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Porrohman, no doubt you are in part correct - from a bean-counting point of view.
However I am a pilot therefore I support anything that keeps airports open. I was born in Dundee so I particularly want to see Dundee kept open. To me there are few better ways of spending public money.
The pax figures you quote are from early 2013. Check the numbers in 2012, 2011 etc, before the development projects in Dundee started in earnest, and now think about what could be achieved in 2016, 2017 when they start to bear fruit. Be a shame not to have an airport anymore wouldn't it?
However I am a pilot therefore I support anything that keeps airports open. I was born in Dundee so I particularly want to see Dundee kept open. To me there are few better ways of spending public money.
The pax figures you quote are from early 2013. Check the numbers in 2012, 2011 etc, before the development projects in Dundee started in earnest, and now think about what could be achieved in 2016, 2017 when they start to bear fruit. Be a shame not to have an airport anymore wouldn't it?
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Some things that would help make routes more viable from Dundee would be competitive landing charges, competitive fuel prices and a reduction or abolition of APD. The first of these would require increased subsidies (as would the second in all likelihood) and the last would need a YES vote next September.
If enough passengers can be encouraged to use Dundee airport then perhaps it has a future. The problem for now is that the overheads are being spread across too few flights and too few passengers and the vicious circle is getting worse instead of better.
If HIAL and/or Dundee Council and/or the Scottish Parliament decide that it's worth having another punt at trying to get a decent selection of commercial flights to use Dundee airport there would need to be a sensible business case to support this and then the people and businesses of Dundee would need to respond by using the services provided in order to make them viable for the operators. It will be a case of use it or lose it. In today's climate however it's difficult to see who will be prepared to take these risks.
If enough passengers can be encouraged to use Dundee airport then perhaps it has a future. The problem for now is that the overheads are being spread across too few flights and too few passengers and the vicious circle is getting worse instead of better.
If HIAL and/or Dundee Council and/or the Scottish Parliament decide that it's worth having another punt at trying to get a decent selection of commercial flights to use Dundee airport there would need to be a sensible business case to support this and then the people and businesses of Dundee would need to respond by using the services provided in order to make them viable for the operators. It will be a case of use it or lose it. In today's climate however it's difficult to see who will be prepared to take these risks.
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I flew from Dundee recently, and my friends, who live in Dundee said
"There's an airport in Dundee?".
Up to then I thought they were intelligent people who knew about their area. Mind you I think us aviation fans are a different breed!
"There's an airport in Dundee?".
Up to then I thought they were intelligent people who knew about their area. Mind you I think us aviation fans are a different breed!
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Sealink, one of 3 standard replies when people asked about my work:
1) There's an airport at Dundee?
2) Oh, that's just the wee planes then? (Tayside)
3) You go to London then?
Nobody - and I mean nobody - that I spoke to outside Dundee was aware of the Birmingham and Belfast services. A lot of effort was made by the crews to publicise the routes (Leuchars Airshows, local banners etc.) but nothing was done outside Dundee i.e. Perth, Forfar, Arbroath, St Andrews etc. Numbers were steadily increasing before the routes were axed, however pressing needs for airframes elsewhere probably tipped the balance.
Many things have changed since then. Given the will, there is a way.
1) There's an airport at Dundee?
2) Oh, that's just the wee planes then? (Tayside)
3) You go to London then?
Nobody - and I mean nobody - that I spoke to outside Dundee was aware of the Birmingham and Belfast services. A lot of effort was made by the crews to publicise the routes (Leuchars Airshows, local banners etc.) but nothing was done outside Dundee i.e. Perth, Forfar, Arbroath, St Andrews etc. Numbers were steadily increasing before the routes were axed, however pressing needs for airframes elsewhere probably tipped the balance.
Many things have changed since then. Given the will, there is a way.
Big problem was always publicity, nobody outside Dundee seemed to know it existed.
bb
DB6, my first solo was also @ Dundee
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Why pour more good money after bad into Dundee?
Far better to invest in lengthening the runway at Aberdeen or improving EDI and GLA ground facillities
Just because a few (a very few in Dundee) people want a local airport there is no reason why the rest of the taxpayers should indulge them
Far better to invest in lengthening the runway at Aberdeen or improving EDI and GLA ground facillities
Just because a few (a very few in Dundee) people want a local airport there is no reason why the rest of the taxpayers should indulge them
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Extend the runway to take 737-800 Move the terminal offer Ryanair landing fees dirt cheap almost at a loss.
get Hial to subsidse it.
Then you might see others flock.
Hell of a catchment Dundee perth all the villages . Fife etc.
Try get hop to do Paris. And try tempt holuday charters.
I take it the E170 cant land there?.
Rj100 could do it.
Plus new Cseries.
They operated 737's into Vagar.
Runway used to be 1299m
get Hial to subsidse it.
Then you might see others flock.
Hell of a catchment Dundee perth all the villages . Fife etc.
Try get hop to do Paris. And try tempt holuday charters.
I take it the E170 cant land there?.
Rj100 could do it.
Plus new Cseries.
They operated 737's into Vagar.
Runway used to be 1299m