DUNDEE
I believe the British Eagle proposed service linking Dundee and Glasgow was to use a De Havilland Dove, which could have used the grass airfield at Dundee. There were various attempts over the years to connect Dundee to the Central Belt airports, by both air and road. In the 1970s both BEA/BA and B Cal operated dedicated coach services from Dundee to Edinburgh Turnhouse, with the coaches painted up in the airline colours. You used to see them, parked one behind the other, waiting in the evening outside the old terminal at Turnhouse for the Vanguard from Heathrow and the B Cal One-Eleven from Gatwick. I never saw more than a handful of passengers in either as they left.
The 1968 Autair service, although the proving flights used 748s, started with Heralds; Autair had bought three of these secondhand, which were familiar with Scotland as they were the old BEA Herald fleet used from Glasgow. These flights operated via Blackpool, Carlisle or nonstop to Luton, different arrangements each day of the week, and on summer Saturdays they did trips from Leuchars to Jersey, which required customs clearance northbound and thus stopped in at Luton. The 1968 Luton timetable from Leuchars is here.
http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...68/ou68-04.jpg
The 1968 Autair service, although the proving flights used 748s, started with Heralds; Autair had bought three of these secondhand, which were familiar with Scotland as they were the old BEA Herald fleet used from Glasgow. These flights operated via Blackpool, Carlisle or nonstop to Luton, different arrangements each day of the week, and on summer Saturdays they did trips from Leuchars to Jersey, which required customs clearance northbound and thus stopped in at Luton. The 1968 Luton timetable from Leuchars is here.
http://www.timetableimages.com/ttima...68/ou68-04.jpg
Last edited by WHBM; 27th Oct 2012 at 20:55.
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Runway extension/A318
Any news on the study which was looking at Dundee airport and potential runway extension (think I read it in the courier some time back)
And would a fully loaded A318 be able to use the current airport/runway at its present length
And would a fully loaded A318 be able to use the current airport/runway at its present length
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Never going to happen.
I can't think of a single destination that could be served out of Dundee that would warrant a 110+ seat aircraft. Besides the A318/B736 have such a high CASM so very few airlines use them anyway.
Dundee's days as a commercial airport are numbered anyway. What's it got anyway - a single LCY flight that often runs in single figures?
There's just too much competition from EDI, ABZ and maybe to a lesser extent GLA for Dundee to attract any sort of meaningful service.
I can't think of a single destination that could be served out of Dundee that would warrant a 110+ seat aircraft. Besides the A318/B736 have such a high CASM so very few airlines use them anyway.
Dundee's days as a commercial airport are numbered anyway. What's it got anyway - a single LCY flight that often runs in single figures?
There's just too much competition from EDI, ABZ and maybe to a lesser extent GLA for Dundee to attract any sort of meaningful service.
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Good diversion point though in crappy weather at ABZ for the small guys
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My dad used to fly Edinburgh - London a few times each year in the 1960's. Was usually from Edinburgh (Vanguards) but I have a clear memory of him catching a flight from Dundee to Glasgow to connect with a London flight to see if that was a viable alternative. It would have been around 1967, it was from the grass strip and it was a Dove - I can remember the bubble. Can clearly see him walking out with a few other hardy souls and bouncing off down towards Invergowrie. I think there was some kind of portable building at the time for a "terminal".
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You're correct re the DH Dove , it was in full British Eagle scheme (named Eaglet) and operated Dundee-Glasgow -Dundee 3x daily, to tie in with the British Eagle flights to Heathrow and Liverpool.
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Flew return to BHX from DND over the weekend on a Do328 from MHS Aviation, Is this because Loganair have moved the Saab elsewhere and are using the leased bird until the flights end.
Both flights were full, its a real shame these are ending.
Both flights were full, its a real shame these are ending.
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Yes goldeneye, I believe Loganair are short on aircraft so are leasing it. I also believe that's the real reason they are pulling out of Dundee and not because of falling pax numbers. They have a nice contract in Stavanger which they are serving with a suckling D328 at the moment such is the extent of the shortage. But, understandably, that is worth more to them than Dundee.It is a shame as the numbers have been good for the last few months and Loganair have damaged the public perception of the airport and the routes by claiming falling pax numbers as the reason for pulling out.
Last edited by rock-hopper; 26th Nov 2012 at 19:33. Reason: spelling
Rockhopper - airlines don't normally pull routes which are making money. If a route or set of routes are not covering the fixed costs of the aircraft and crew and you have a better bet to deploy the asset in a way where it can cover its costs, you do so. If you have two potential sets of routes of which both make money and cover full costs but only one aircraft, you go and get another aircraft as it will enhance your overall company profitability. It's not as though the desert parking lots are exactly devoid of SF340s.
The likelihood is that the routes were not covering the costs of the aircraft and crew, and better deployment for the asset came along. It makes no sense to increase the fleet to keep flying routes which don't make money.
The likelihood is that the routes were not covering the costs of the aircraft and crew, and better deployment for the asset came along. It makes no sense to increase the fleet to keep flying routes which don't make money.
What was the outcome from the strike last year? Did staff get a pay rise to match the other airports in the group? With a 56% drop in passengers in December due to a reduction in LCY passengers and the BHX/BFS routes being dropped is there a forecast of the expected annual losses for the airport?
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Staff didn't strike. ACAS got involved and a deal was reached to bring the staff in line with rest of HIAL over a period of about 4 years. A basic Google search will give you the details.
The drop in passenger numbers is obviously due to Loganair pulling out. What this masks is that all routes were doing ok before losing BHX and BHD. Pax numbers were up at the end of last year and movement numbers were up almost 40%! There is a market there somewhere but personally I don't know what it is exactly, be it business, oil, schedule or renewable oriented. In the meantime, it is bound to be a struggle to make the place work.
The drop in passenger numbers is obviously due to Loganair pulling out. What this masks is that all routes were doing ok before losing BHX and BHD. Pax numbers were up at the end of last year and movement numbers were up almost 40%! There is a market there somewhere but personally I don't know what it is exactly, be it business, oil, schedule or renewable oriented. In the meantime, it is bound to be a struggle to make the place work.
Any developments from Northpoint Aviation ? Just wondering what happening at Dundee these days? The CAA figures show a drop in passengers from 47392 last March to 2185 this march, it looks like even the London City route is down 10% the last 2 months . I guess the strong performance of the Aberdeen to London City route is hitting? I struggle to understand how an airport with 35 passengers in and 35 out on average per day can pay its way or justify government funding given so few people traveling when Aberdeen and Edinburgh are so close and offer the same route with increased friequency?
How big are the projected losses this year?
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How big are the projected losses this year?
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From Jan 2012 to Mar 2012, Dundee saw 6,942 passengers on the London City route.
For 2012 as a whole, the London City route saw 27,872 passengers.
This suggests that the first 3 months of 2012 accounts for almost exactly 25% of 2012 annual passenger traffic on the London route.
From Jan 2013 to March 2013, Dundee saw 6,106 passengers on the London City route.
Assuming the route in 2013 exhibits the same level of seasonality as in 2012, this suggests the Dundee-London City route is heading for about 25,000 passengers for the period Jan 2013 - Dec 2013.
To put this into context, the much more remote airport at Wick / John O'Groats saw 22,233 passengers in 2012.
As others will know, the routes from Belfast and Birmingham no longer operate, so there are no other regular commercial routes supplying passengers.
Given the road and rail options to Aberdeen and Edinburgh, is Dundee airport sustainable as a publicly subsidised airport at 25,000 passengers per year ?
For 2012 as a whole, the London City route saw 27,872 passengers.
This suggests that the first 3 months of 2012 accounts for almost exactly 25% of 2012 annual passenger traffic on the London route.
From Jan 2013 to March 2013, Dundee saw 6,106 passengers on the London City route.
Assuming the route in 2013 exhibits the same level of seasonality as in 2012, this suggests the Dundee-London City route is heading for about 25,000 passengers for the period Jan 2013 - Dec 2013.
To put this into context, the much more remote airport at Wick / John O'Groats saw 22,233 passengers in 2012.
As others will know, the routes from Belfast and Birmingham no longer operate, so there are no other regular commercial routes supplying passengers.
Given the road and rail options to Aberdeen and Edinburgh, is Dundee airport sustainable as a publicly subsidised airport at 25,000 passengers per year ?
Last edited by davidjohnson6; 11th May 2013 at 22:17.
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Depends what else is going on at an airport in addition to scheduled flights. I think there is a tendency to discuss an airport's viability simply by looking at the number of scheduled routes and the passenger numbers they attract. This is a bit like discussing the viability of a Tesco's by just looking at its veggie department. That said, it could very well be that Dundee is almost only selling veggies if there is little/none GA or business charter activity, no MRO facility, no FBO, no law enforcement/medical related operations, no freight or military flying etc. (which, IIRC, is more or less all the case...)
"In the first full financial year of operation under HIAL (2008/9) the airport's loss was £2.6 million. (Wiki Quote)" Passenger figures have more than halved so I guess losses will have grown. If it were £3 m spread over 22,000 passengers it equates to around £120 per passenger, each way. If the London City route were to stop, how would the airfield survive? What would the justification be to keep subsidising a lossmaking airfield without scheduled service flights?
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I guess you didn't know that Dundee was the third busiest aero club airport in the UK with 35,118 movements in 2012. Only Gloucestershire and Shoreham was larger than Dundee on the aero club scene. But if we look at the total number of movements it's even more interesting. Here is the list of airports with scheduled flights that had less movements than Dundee:
Cardiff, Doncaster, Durham Tees Valley, Exeter, Humberside, Manston, Newquay, Norwich, Oxford, Prestwick and Southend.
I have left out a number of airports that has only PSO routes or airports that are vital links to remote communities like Land's End St. Just, Inverness and Kirkwall.
Cardiff, Doncaster, Durham Tees Valley, Exeter, Humberside, Manston, Newquay, Norwich, Oxford, Prestwick and Southend.
I have left out a number of airports that has only PSO routes or airports that are vital links to remote communities like Land's End St. Just, Inverness and Kirkwall.
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It is a bit like this "new" airport in Germany - Kassel/KSF - everybody is ****storming because of the limited number of scheduled flights currently making use of the new terminal. Hardly anybody notices that this airport has much more annual movements than a lot of German regional airports with a handful of scheduled departures thanks to a lot of air freight, GA, MRO etc. movements.