HEATHROW

[avmet]

To reduce wake encounter probability on departure, three things needed.
1/ know the wind profile on the departure.
2/ set a way point for departure with a height gate.
3/ have a different way point height for heavies and mediums, heavies lower.
The highest probability of wake encounter is when a follower flies below and down wind of the lead aircraft. So, follow the same track out (including height) and then and then diverge tracks slightly after about 1-2 nm, but stay within the corridor.
Revolutionary. Most modern FMS's can do this for you.

[DaveReidUK]

Don't they just need to avoid two heavy departures going the same way to get around this?

No, not under the proposed rules as they stand.

Think about it. At the point where a heavy gets airborne from the runway it would now need to have 4nm separation from the preceding heavy departure. It wouldn't make any difference whether the two flights are headed in opposite directions or the same, the second aircraft couldn't get airborne any earlier.

That represents a huge loss of flexibility compared to the status quo where the departure separation does indeed depend on the respective tracks, and I would expect a robust case to be made for continuing this procedure.

[nigel osborne]

EGLNYT.

So basically they are saying to airlines hand us cash so we can do research and we keep separation the same, if you don't we implement a 4 mile separation.

Only at LHR !!



Nigel

[DaveReidUK]

So basically they are saying to airlines hand us cash so we can do research and we keep separation the same, if you don't we implement a 4 mile separation.

Or, more relevantly, they are saying it to the airports and to NATS - they are the ones who will be coming up with counter-proposals (albeit ultimately paid for by the airlines via user charges).

Only at LHR !!

LGW, too.

[PAXboy]

Thanks avmet and welcome to the forum.

To a Pax like me, this sounds similar to the suggestions about laying your cruise track slightly to one side of the designated line for further space between a/c?

[DaveReidUK]

So, follow the same track out (including height)

That may be easier said than done. A departing 4-holer isn't going to have the same climb performance as a preceding twin, so following it at the same height may not be an option.

[underfire]

With an RNAV DEP, you could set the horizontal and vertical track at a certain distance. This way, no matter the rotation point or climb rate, the aircraft would all head to the same point, and could diverse from there.

[Dan Dare]

The CAA are not proposing that the separation can be reduced, they are saying the methods of ensuring the 4 miles minimum can be unit specific.

Offsetting or diverging tracks are a completely separate issue from this and will not help with this scenario.

As things stand I can't see how things would get worse at Heathrow - they would lose the ability to move as much traffic by a few aircraft an hour every hour through the day and would have to declare a lower scheduling capacity. The loss of these would not be good for the airport, but would have an affect on the UK economy too.

[DaveReidUK]

The CAA are not proposing that the separation can be reduced, they are saying the methods of ensuring the 4 miles minimum can be unit specific.

No, they aren't saying that at all. The document is clear that airport operators can propose a different separation standard (with suitable procedures) as an alternative means of compliance (Section 4):

"The CAA will consider an application from aerodrome licence holders to apply an alternative specific Heavy/Heavy aircraft departure wake turbulence separation."

(and would require)

"In addition to promulgation of the alternative separation standard in UK AIP AD2, evidence that aircraft operators were aware of and content with the local variation."

That's "alternative" as in an alternative to 4nm separation (subject to a safety case, obviously).

[Dan Dare]

DR,

I have re-read SN 2013/018 and see that you are right. So LHR would probably apply for a work-round, but the rest of the UK would be constrained by the new rules because there is less commercial need to jump through the hoops.

[DaveReidUK]

So LHR would probably apply for a work-round, but the rest of the UK would be constrained by the new rules because there is less commercial need to jump through the hoops.

Yes, I'd agree - although Gatwick, which is slot-constrained for part of the day, might well need to jump through the same hoops.

In the case of Heathrow, a loss of even one departure slot per hour would have a severe commercial impact, so I have no doubt that NATS' planners are on the case even as we speak.

[nigel osborne]

DavidReidUK,

<< No, they aren't saying that at all. The document is clear that airport operators can propose a different separation standard (with suitable procedures) as an alternative means of compliance (Section 4):

"The CAA will consider an application from aerodrome licence holders to apply an alternative specific Heavy/Heavy aircraft departure wake turbulence separation."

(and would require)

"In addition to promulgation of the alternative separation standard in UK AIP AD2, evidence that aircraft operators were aware of and content with the local variation."

That's "alternative" as in an alternative to 4nm separation (subject to a safety case, obviously).>>
"

Sorry now completely lost me in this gobblydeegook.

We are still no nearer at all in the answer as to what exactly is likely to be proposed.Perhaps thats the idea to confuse everyone

Perhaps we should now and wait to see what they propose if they write it in understandable English that is

Nigel

[DaveReidUK]

We are still no nearer at all in the answer as to what exactly is likely to be proposed.

At this point in time, nobody knows exactly what airports and/or NATS are likely to propose.

I'm not sure why we would expect to, after all it's less than a week since the notice was published.

[BAladdy]

PR to MNL

Philippine Airlines will launch a 5 x weekly service to MNL from 4th November 2013

PR720 MNL0805 – 1400LHR 77W 1
PR720 MNL0820 – 1415LHR 77W 47
PR720 MNL0830 – 1425LHR 77W 36

PR721 LHR1615 – 1250+1MNL 77W 1
PR721 LHR1715 – 1350+1MNL 77W 47
PR721 LHR1905 – 1540+1MNL 77W 36

[BAladdy]

BA S14 LHR Charter Ops

BA will once again operate the following weekend charter flights from LHR during S14. The flights are operated on behalf of Sardatur Holidays, Mark Warner Holidays and Neilson Holidays.

Additional Flights and destinations are likely to be added prior to S14.

Bastia

BA9238C LHR 07:35 BIA 10:55 32S 6 (24MAY14-20SEP14)
BA9239C BIA 12:25 LHR 13:45 32S 6 (31MAY14-27SEP14)

Bodrum

BA9234C LHR 07:55 BJV 13:55 32S 6 (24MAY14-25OCT14)
BA9235C BJV 15:40 LHR 17:50 32S 6 (31MAY14-01NOV14)

Cagliari

BA9216C LHR 08:30 CAG 12:15 320 6 (24MAY14-20SEP14)
BA9236C LHR 13:30 CAG 17:05 319 6 (24MAY14-20SEP14)
BA9222C LHR 15:50 CAG 19:35 32S 6 (05JUL14-23AUG14)

BA9217C CAG 14:30 LHR 16:05 320 6 (31MAY14-27SEP14)
BA9237C CAG 19:00 LHR 20:35 319 6 (31MAY14-27SEP14)
BA9223C CAG 20:25 LHR 22:00 32S 6 (12JUL14-30AUG14)

Dalaman

BA92xxC LHR 12:00 DLM 17:55 32S 6 (03MAY14-25OCT14)
BA92xxC DLM 19:10 LHR 21:30 32S 6 (10MAY14-01NOV14)

Kalamata

BA92xxC LHR 06:30 KLX 12:30 32S 7 (04MAY14-26OCT14)
BA92xxC KLX 14:00 LHR 16:00 32S 7 (11MAY14-02NOV14)

Kos

BA9240C LHR 07:30 KGS 13:40 32S 6 (03MAY14-25OCT14)
BA9242C LHR 13:15 KGS 19:25 32S 6 (05JUL14-23AUG14)

BA9241C KGS 15:00 LHR 17:20 32S 6 (10MAY14-01NOV14)
BA9243C KGS 20:10 LHR 22:30 32S 6 (12JUL14-30AUG14)

Lemnos

BA9226C LHR 09:10 LXS 14:50 32S 7 (25MAY14-14SEP14)
BA9227C LXS 15:40 LHR 17:35 32S 7 (01JUN14-21SEP14)

Olbia

BA9218C LHR 08:50 OLB 12:20 32S 6 (24MAY14-20SEP14)
BA9219C OLB 14:50 LHR 16:15 32S 6 (31MAY14-27SEP14)

Preveza

BA9210C LHR 07:30 PVK 12:30 32S 7 (25MAY14-05OCT14)
BA9211C PVK 13:30 LHR 14:30 32S 7 (01JUN14-12OCT14)

Rhodes

BA9232C LHR 07:50 RHO 14:00 32S 6 (03MAY14-25OCT14)
BA9233C RHO 15:15 LHR 17:35 32S 6 (10MAY14-01NOV14)

[Heathrow Harry]

Amazed the LHR is supposed to be capacity limited and yet BA are operating bucket 'n spade charters from there

[BAladdy]

Amazed the LHR is supposed to be capacity limited and yet BA are operating bucket 'n spade charters from there

The charters are on a Saturdays and on Sunday mornings. When far less short haul flights operate to and from LHR.

The charter program has proved a valuable revenue stream for BA, that's why the program will be bigger next year than it was this year.

[DaveReidUK]

Heathrow normally has around 4% (around 50) fewer movements on a Saturday compared to weekdays. Plenty of spare slots for those BA charters.

[wallp]

Philippine Airlines

Great to see Philippine Airlines returning to the UK, this time at Heathrow. Am amazed they managed to secure sufficient slots. I wonder if this will prompt BA to launch a Manila service to compete?

[Bartek]

Philippine Airlines news is good indeed. Any chance of a codeshare with VS on the domestic flights to EDI, ABZ, MAN?