HEATHROW
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Middlesex (under the flightpath)
Posts: 1,946
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heathrow bosses to consider extended runway proposal as alternative to R3 ?
Unlikely as it sounds, yesterday's FT reports that HAH may carry out a detailed examination of, and possibly even adopt, the Heathrow Hub proposal to extend the northern runway as an alternative to building a new one.
This will, we're told, depend on the findings of a proposed public consultation to establish whether community opposition is greater towards the idea of more areas being exposed to noise (under the R3 flightpath) or to the almost complete loss of respite alternation implied by the runway extension alternative (although R3 will also adversely impact respite).
Heathrow to examine alternative plan to third runway - FT.com
Unlikely as it sounds, yesterday's FT reports that HAH may carry out a detailed examination of, and possibly even adopt, the Heathrow Hub proposal to extend the northern runway as an alternative to building a new one.
This will, we're told, depend on the findings of a proposed public consultation to establish whether community opposition is greater towards the idea of more areas being exposed to noise (under the R3 flightpath) or to the almost complete loss of respite alternation implied by the runway extension alternative (although R3 will also adversely impact respite).
Heathrow to examine alternative plan to third runway - FT.com
Apart from the technical implications, it is surprising that Heathrow management would support this.
They've always opposed mixed mode operations, because they believed that flightpath residents won't tolerate it, which is true.
Chances are that existing flightpath residents will not want to lose their respite and will not be concerned if new areas end up under the flightpath. Those not under flightpath may not want to be, and will be unconcerned if existing flightpath residents lose their respite.
So it's hard to see what they hope to achieve.
Does a rwy extension, for that is what it is, need government approval?
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can we just be clear, it's really a third runway, we're not actually going to pretend it's just making the North runway longer are we? I mean come on!!!!
Perhaps they're just trying to show ABZ and BHX how to properly extend a runway?
Perhaps they're just trying to show ABZ and BHX how to properly extend a runway?
Last edited by Skipness One Echo; 5th Jan 2014 at 13:51.
Can we just be clear, it's really a third runway, we're not actually going to pretend it's just making the North runway longer are we? I mean come on!!!!
Or, more likely, neither.
As it's only a makeweight proposal, the technicalities don't really matter.
Paxing All Over The World
After visiting last Sunday to pick up a friend from T3, two observations:
The enormous (and greatly improved T3 car park is still only served by one lane! There are three entry gates (only 2 working at 15:45 on 5th Jan) but it is one lane - with the second lane people forcing their way in when they discover that two lanes do NOT go to the car park. Or, more likely, they know it does not go but they can queue jump ...
As far as I can currently see, the number of lanes supplying the T3 park are unlikely to change.
Seeing the progerss of T2, I decided to look for information on the website. There was and I learnt two things.
Firstly that the PR people have drivelled all over it and that they are children who have not been educated in the English language (I know I'm old but they really have shown themselves up) with a photograph of an expanse of roof, Heathrow: Gallery (5) | The iconic roof of Terminal 2 the caption starts:
Terminal 2's iconic roof nears completion.
Hhmm, even with the contemporary redifinition of 'iconic' that is pushing it.
Secondly, looking inside: Heathrow: Gallery (10) | Inside Terminal 2B
There is confirmation that they are continuing to use the small and cheaper flat panel screens for flight information. I won't bore you too much, as this subject has been discussed but:
The enormous (and greatly improved T3 car park is still only served by one lane! There are three entry gates (only 2 working at 15:45 on 5th Jan) but it is one lane - with the second lane people forcing their way in when they discover that two lanes do NOT go to the car park. Or, more likely, they know it does not go but they can queue jump ...
As far as I can currently see, the number of lanes supplying the T3 park are unlikely to change.Seeing the progerss of T2, I decided to look for information on the website. There was and I learnt two things.
Firstly that the PR people have drivelled all over it and that they are children who have not been educated in the English language (I know I'm old but they really have shown themselves up) with a photograph of an expanse of roof, Heathrow: Gallery (5) | The iconic roof of Terminal 2 the caption starts:
Terminal 2's iconic roof nears completion.
Hhmm, even with the contemporary redifinition of 'iconic' that is pushing it.
Secondly, looking inside: Heathrow: Gallery (10) | Inside Terminal 2B
There is confirmation that they are continuing to use the small and cheaper flat panel screens for flight information. I won't bore you too much, as this subject has been discussed but:
- You have to stand very close to them to read
- This causes bunching of people, rather than allowing folks to be spaced out.
- You are not able to sit to one side and leave the floor clear - as you then need binoculars to read the screens.
- Of course, I doubt that you are able to sit to one side - or anywhere ...
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Heathrow airport says CAA price cap is draconian
BBC News - Heathrow airport says CAA price cap is draconian
Heathrow has accused the UK's aviation regulator of draconian action, after it capped the amount the airport is allowed to charge airlines.
In a surprise move, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) announced that Heathrow can only increase its charges by less than the rate of inflation.
Price rises will be limited to 1.5% below inflation for the next five years, starting in April.
The CAA said that passengers would benefit from lower prices as a result.
Heathrow had asked for a rise of 4.6% above the RPI inflation rate. The CAA had previously proposed that Heathrow would be allowed to increase its charges in line with inflation.
Colin Matthews, Heathrow's chief executive, said: "In October the CAA accepted the need for changes to its April proposals, but has now reverted to a draconian position. We will review our investment plan to see whether it is still financeable in light of the CAA's settlement," he added.
The airport will now consider whether to appeal against the plan.
Analysis Richard Westcott BBC transport correspondent
The big question everyone wants to know is whether any of these changes will bring ticket prices down. Unfortunately, it's impossible to answer with any certainty.
Yes, Heathrow won't be able to charge airlines nearly as much as it wanted to for them to land there. The regulator has surprised everybody with a tougher deal for the airport than expected. But Heathrow will still be putting prices up, albeit by less than inflation. And remember, British Airways had been pushing hard for a huge 9.8% cut in charges.
So, in the end, the airlines will have to find more money, and it's got to come from somewhere.
Meanwhile, over at Stansted the shackles of economic regulation have been cast off, which Ryanair says (mind you, it would wouldn't it) will let the airport raise prices, hitting customers.
The regulator insists, though, that it has put the passenger at the heart of its decision-making. But the CAA said the benefits to passengers would be clear.
"They will see prices fall, whilst still being able to look forward to high service standards, thanks to a robust licensing regime," said Dame Deidre Hutton, chair of the CAA.Stansted
The CAA also decided that Stansted airport would no longer have its prices regulated, at least as far as the passenger market is concerned.
It concluded that the airport did not have "substantial market power",
suggesting that airlines have a freedom to move elsewhere if prices become too high. But that claim was described as "false" by Ryanair, one of Stansted's biggest customers.
The airline has consistently complained about high charges at the airport, and it says the CAA's decision is likely to mean even higher charges in future.
"Today's decision is an example of the CAA's regulatory failure which will again harm consumers, as Stansted will be able to further increase airport charges whenever it wishes," said Juliusz Komorek, Ryanair's director of legal and regulatory affairs.
Gatwick has already promised to maintain prices in line with inflation. The CAA said it would monitor the outcome.
Heathrow has accused the UK's aviation regulator of draconian action, after it capped the amount the airport is allowed to charge airlines.
In a surprise move, the Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) announced that Heathrow can only increase its charges by less than the rate of inflation.
Price rises will be limited to 1.5% below inflation for the next five years, starting in April.
The CAA said that passengers would benefit from lower prices as a result.
Heathrow had asked for a rise of 4.6% above the RPI inflation rate. The CAA had previously proposed that Heathrow would be allowed to increase its charges in line with inflation.
Colin Matthews, Heathrow's chief executive, said: "In October the CAA accepted the need for changes to its April proposals, but has now reverted to a draconian position. We will review our investment plan to see whether it is still financeable in light of the CAA's settlement," he added.
The airport will now consider whether to appeal against the plan.
Analysis Richard Westcott BBC transport correspondent
The big question everyone wants to know is whether any of these changes will bring ticket prices down. Unfortunately, it's impossible to answer with any certainty.
Yes, Heathrow won't be able to charge airlines nearly as much as it wanted to for them to land there. The regulator has surprised everybody with a tougher deal for the airport than expected. But Heathrow will still be putting prices up, albeit by less than inflation. And remember, British Airways had been pushing hard for a huge 9.8% cut in charges.
So, in the end, the airlines will have to find more money, and it's got to come from somewhere.
Meanwhile, over at Stansted the shackles of economic regulation have been cast off, which Ryanair says (mind you, it would wouldn't it) will let the airport raise prices, hitting customers.
The regulator insists, though, that it has put the passenger at the heart of its decision-making. But the CAA said the benefits to passengers would be clear.
"They will see prices fall, whilst still being able to look forward to high service standards, thanks to a robust licensing regime," said Dame Deidre Hutton, chair of the CAA.Stansted
The CAA also decided that Stansted airport would no longer have its prices regulated, at least as far as the passenger market is concerned.
It concluded that the airport did not have "substantial market power",
suggesting that airlines have a freedom to move elsewhere if prices become too high. But that claim was described as "false" by Ryanair, one of Stansted's biggest customers.
The airline has consistently complained about high charges at the airport, and it says the CAA's decision is likely to mean even higher charges in future.
"Today's decision is an example of the CAA's regulatory failure which will again harm consumers, as Stansted will be able to further increase airport charges whenever it wishes," said Juliusz Komorek, Ryanair's director of legal and regulatory affairs.
Gatwick has already promised to maintain prices in line with inflation. The CAA said it would monitor the outcome.
Paxing All Over The World
This is fabulous stuff ...
As usual, I sit to be corrected about what I writte.
For the politicians it's a real Win - Win. It strike me as:
Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning
Running rings around the moon
Written by Michel Legrand, Alan and Marilyn Bergman
As usual, I sit to be corrected about what I writte.
For the politicians it's a real Win - Win. It strike me as:
- politicians privatised BAA so that the market would do it's thing
- immediately hobbled the market by regulation
- their 'light touch' ensured that aiports had to become expensive shopping malls
- they also ensured that feeder flights would be squeezed out in preference for larger machine
- they also produced a market in slots, allowing carriers to make money from something that was free
- they are still pretending to help the passenger by limiting price rises
- but they know the prices have to rise or the aiport has to fall even further behind
- LHR is (at long last) in the midst of some real improvements and are now told they cannot get a return on their investment
- passengers continue to want to pay as little as possible (understandable)
- airlines are still not making very much money and so service standards have to fall
- the govt says this will hold ticket prices down - and so they escape any blame when prices go up as they surely must do
- regulations about flight time hours and all the rest continue
- and let's not talk about planning for expansion or anything that might really be about a free market.
Like a circle in a spiral
Like a wheel within a wheel
Never ending or beginning
On an ever spinning reel
Like a snowball down a mountain
Or a carnival balloon
Like a carousel that's turning
Running rings around the moon
Written by Michel Legrand, Alan and Marilyn Bergman
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: MAN
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some form of regulation post-privatisation was inevitable, given the extent of Heathrow's market power. But the type of cost-plus regulation that the CAA has used for the past 25 years has not incentivised (the former) BAA to be efficient in its operations or to spend capital wisely. Yes it is good that Heathrow is becoming a world-class facility, but I would question whether T5, for example, really needed to cost £4.5billion. Measured against other new airport terminals worldwide it looks grossly expensive.
So I don't agree that charges at LHR necessarily have to go up, rather that the airport's management has to be much more efficient in the delivery of capital projects and in the day-to-day running of the airport.
So I don't agree that charges at LHR necessarily have to go up, rather that the airport's management has to be much more efficient in the delivery of capital projects and in the day-to-day running of the airport.
Basil - out of interest, are you aware of any other transparent methods to allow the CAA to regulate airport pricing that could be used at LHR without other undesirable side effects nd could be legislated by Parliament without falling foul of the EU ?
Genuine question - quite happy to read a detailed but well argued reply
Genuine question - quite happy to read a detailed but well argued reply
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: MAN
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
David - the CAA has wide discretion in the form of regulation. It is not restricted to applying the cost-plus approach that has been used since 1987. It has considered other approaches (eg see Appendix 1 of http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/5/Q6PolicyUpdate.pdf) but has so far stuck to the old approach.
A better approach might be to set price caps based on international benchmarks, and then apply mandatory investment/service standards. That would then give the airport operator a lasting incentive to be innovative and efficient. There would no doubt be lots of practical difficulties but surely something needs to change from the current approach.
This and other alternatives could be applied without new legislation, and I can't see that EC/EU interference would be a problem.
A better approach might be to set price caps based on international benchmarks, and then apply mandatory investment/service standards. That would then give the airport operator a lasting incentive to be innovative and efficient. There would no doubt be lots of practical difficulties but surely something needs to change from the current approach.
This and other alternatives could be applied without new legislation, and I can't see that EC/EU interference would be a problem.
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Of course if they REALLY believed in market forces they'd let LHR charge what the market will bear.
As everyone wants to fly from LHR (according to some here) then the price would go up until demand stabilised
those who couldn't stand the heat would fly from elsewhere
But I suspect you'd lose an awful lot of inter-Uk flights for a start, replaced by all those businessmen who want to fly to the wilds of China
As everyone wants to fly from LHR (according to some here) then the price would go up until demand stabilised
those who couldn't stand the heat would fly from elsewhere
But I suspect you'd lose an awful lot of inter-Uk flights for a start, replaced by all those businessmen who want to fly to the wilds of China
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Harry, Harry, Harry, you've got two things fundamentally wrong.
1) It's not Heathrow Airport people want to fly to per se, it's the London airport with the best connections and facilties which happens to be at LHR. T5 and T2 world class and whilst not ideal, it's getting there.
2) Domestic UK flights are needed to feed all the businessmen onto the Chinese flights in the first place. If they could survive on point to point alone, they could happily fly from Gatwick.
You seem very anti Heathrow given your username I must say.
1) It's not Heathrow Airport people want to fly to per se, it's the London airport with the best connections and facilties which happens to be at LHR. T5 and T2 world class and whilst not ideal, it's getting there.
2) Domestic UK flights are needed to feed all the businessmen onto the Chinese flights in the first place. If they could survive on point to point alone, they could happily fly from Gatwick.
You seem very anti Heathrow given your username I must say.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,208
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
QR to buy additional slot
Qatar Airways to buy Heathrow slot for $20m - Transport - ArabianBusiness.com
Qatar Airways to buy Heathrow slot for $20m - Transport - ArabianBusiness.com
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: London
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Skipness
just because I use LHR and live near it doesn't mean to say I have to like it
It's a dump of an airport that is in the wrong place, is appallingly laid out and disliked by almost every passenger that has to go there
Those facts have been recognised for over 50 years
Other countries have developed new airports to replace the old clunkers - Oslo, Stockholm, Paris, DFW, Singapore, Jakarta (Jakarta for heavens sake!!!), HK............ but we soldier on with that wreck on the A4
Depressing?? Yes, very................
just because I use LHR and live near it doesn't mean to say I have to like it
It's a dump of an airport that is in the wrong place, is appallingly laid out and disliked by almost every passenger that has to go there
Those facts have been recognised for over 50 years
Other countries have developed new airports to replace the old clunkers - Oslo, Stockholm, Paris, DFW, Singapore, Jakarta (Jakarta for heavens sake!!!), HK............ but we soldier on with that wreck on the A4
Depressing?? Yes, very................
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: London
Posts: 355
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think terminal 5 is pretty cool and one of the best terminal around, and it has easy access either by road or rail … not exactly a
Terminal 2 will be great when it opens in a couple of months time too I am sure ...
Terminal 2 will be great when it opens in a couple of months time too I am sure ...
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London (Babylon-on-Thames)
Age: 42
Posts: 6,168
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There's been some major changes in the last ten years to the layout Harry and it's blatantly untrue to suggest that almost everyone who uses it dislikes it.
The building of T5, the revamped T4 and the removal of the old T2 all saw to that. The move away from constrained cul de sacs to open plan toastrack layout deserves credit also. Be fair, it's only in the "wrong place" btw if you're wealthy enough to live in parts of West London.
Heathrow is becoming a new airport, once T1 is gone, that only leaves T3 to fix. The rest of it is pretty much fit for purpose.
The building of T5, the revamped T4 and the removal of the old T2 all saw to that. The move away from constrained cul de sacs to open plan toastrack layout deserves credit also. Be fair, it's only in the "wrong place" btw if you're wealthy enough to live in parts of West London.
Heathrow is becoming a new airport, once T1 is gone, that only leaves T3 to fix. The rest of it is pretty much fit for purpose.
Paxing All Over The World
Bemoaning where EGLL is on the map is just for something to talk about. We all know the politicians of the last 30+ years have failed and we know that there is no chance of them doing the right thing.
We are where we are and the new terminals are making the best of it. Not ideal but better than it was.
We are where we are and the new terminals are making the best of it. Not ideal but better than it was.
Third Heathrow runway may flatten 10,000 homes
So says the Daily Mail, so it must be true:
Third Heathrow runway may flatten 10,000 homes | Mail Online
Third Heathrow runway may flatten 10,000 homes | Mail Online