SHANNON
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You note the "usual PPRUNE nonsense" in relation to SNN, but this kind of thing just perpetuates it, just either form a cohesive argument on the issue of Cork and it's debt or drop it and get on with it.
"Oh, a new route from Shannon. Its doomed/who wants to fly to shannon/only because x started this route from cork/galway" sort of attitude.
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There's a few factors that will have fed into the extra 6K in Cork, beyond the scrapping of Shannon-Heathrow. There was a marginal drop in traffic from all other London airports to Cork. The route was using an A321 instead of an A320, which while probably usually not filled, would have taken extra passengers on Friday, Sunday and Monday services. Also, Cork-Southampton was running in Feb 2007, but not Feb 2008. Some pasengers headed to/from Hampshire/Dorset etc. will have flown to/from Heathrow instead. I'm sure some will have come from the Shannon service, but not all.
Actually, I'd have little doubt the the CityJet service will get good loads. The yield is what needs to be worried about. There was talk of other airlines that have given great press releases only to pull a route later and the example of Malev in Cork is the one to worry about. The loads were always good on Cork-Budapest, but the tickets were all being sold at the lowest price and for an airline that doesn't have the cost structure of Ryanair etc. that's an impossible position to sustain. So the question is how many seats can CityJet sell for E300+.
As for the small regional airports... Don't get me started... Sligo is looking for substantial funding to extend its runway out into Sligo Bay, yet Sligo is only 55km from Knock Airport with its perfectly adequate runway. When you consider Limerick is 25-30km from Shannon and the time spent travelling from Sligo to Knock would be less than a journey from Dun Laoighaire to Dublin Airport, it just doesn't make sense. These places have the ability to become money pits that also undermine the economics of the larger regional airports.
Actually, I'd have little doubt the the CityJet service will get good loads. The yield is what needs to be worried about. There was talk of other airlines that have given great press releases only to pull a route later and the example of Malev in Cork is the one to worry about. The loads were always good on Cork-Budapest, but the tickets were all being sold at the lowest price and for an airline that doesn't have the cost structure of Ryanair etc. that's an impossible position to sustain. So the question is how many seats can CityJet sell for E300+.
As for the small regional airports... Don't get me started... Sligo is looking for substantial funding to extend its runway out into Sligo Bay, yet Sligo is only 55km from Knock Airport with its perfectly adequate runway. When you consider Limerick is 25-30km from Shannon and the time spent travelling from Sligo to Knock would be less than a journey from Dun Laoighaire to Dublin Airport, it just doesn't make sense. These places have the ability to become money pits that also undermine the economics of the larger regional airports.
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Malev is a much smaller airline than Air France, who in network reorganisation dropped Cork. It is unlikely for AFR/BCY to commence same- Cityjet realise the importance of the route and started it partially on that basis.
Limerick is not 30km from Shannon- it is, 15 mins drive. Around 7-8km from the city centre at most.
Limerick is not 30km from Shannon- it is, 15 mins drive. Around 7-8km from the city centre at most.
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its about 15km to the airport..but yeah 15-20 minutes drive max. I drive it everyday.
840 - Thats my point on the regional airports like Galway/Waterford etc getting millions. There is no major need for them and the money is being granted on political grounds rather than any real need for development of so many regional airports who have relatively poor facilities as they stand. (Martin Cullen giving waterford 27 million just before he lost his ministerial post a prime example imo..Waterford is not far from Cork or Dublin for that matter either). Galway for example is an hour from SNN. It can take longer to get from Dublin City centre to DUB airport at times.
A good overall aviation policy would be a lot more beneficial to Ireland as a whole and to me that would mean devloping airports like Cork and Shannon aznd even Knock rather than every airstrip in the place.
840 - Thats my point on the regional airports like Galway/Waterford etc getting millions. There is no major need for them and the money is being granted on political grounds rather than any real need for development of so many regional airports who have relatively poor facilities as they stand. (Martin Cullen giving waterford 27 million just before he lost his ministerial post a prime example imo..Waterford is not far from Cork or Dublin for that matter either). Galway for example is an hour from SNN. It can take longer to get from Dublin City centre to DUB airport at times.
A good overall aviation policy would be a lot more beneficial to Ireland as a whole and to me that would mean devloping airports like Cork and Shannon aznd even Knock rather than every airstrip in the place.
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vkid - I don't mean the small sums you quote there (assume they're correct). I'm thinking more of the new/refurbed terminal that was done 7/8 years ago (not sure on that timing?). Major pieces of infrastructure like that are the level playing field I'm referring to.
Agree with 840 on the regionals. I think they should have enough facilities for basic services to Dublin (which should die when/if we get motorway and/or fast rail from each urban centre - i.e never for Mayo, Donegal and Kerry), London and a small number of other half decent routes. Ireland is too small for each airport to have it's own full suite of routes to every destination under the sun. Sligo is a perfect example, they have Knock to the South, and Derry and Carrickfin to the North. There should be no further investment there for instance. (Wait for the barrage of comments from Sligo people...)
I would make the case for Carrickfin, as the north of Donegal is as remote as you get on this island of ours. It takes a long time to get there to anywhere! Caveat again, it should just be a basic route to Dublin and/or London, nothing more.
Agree with 840 on the regionals. I think they should have enough facilities for basic services to Dublin (which should die when/if we get motorway and/or fast rail from each urban centre - i.e never for Mayo, Donegal and Kerry), London and a small number of other half decent routes. Ireland is too small for each airport to have it's own full suite of routes to every destination under the sun. Sligo is a perfect example, they have Knock to the South, and Derry and Carrickfin to the North. There should be no further investment there for instance. (Wait for the barrage of comments from Sligo people...)
I would make the case for Carrickfin, as the north of Donegal is as remote as you get on this island of ours. It takes a long time to get there to anywhere! Caveat again, it should just be a basic route to Dublin and/or London, nothing more.
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Details below of that development from the architects site. Small change relative to 220million in fairness even if it was 1999. If anything it shows how little has been spent on SNN in recent years when you put it alongside Waterfords 27million..an airport that has iirc 100k per year?
Will try to find the press on those other figures for you. Have the link somewhere.
This Euro 29.2m / £23m redevelopment at Shannon Airport comprises the extension of the existing 1970’s Terminal Building to the West and South and the refurbishment of the current Arrivals Hall. The design of the Building revolves around the specific needs of the passenger for clarity of orientation, ease of movement and for an environment which avoids the introspective aspect of many airports. The elevations and materials signify the functional organisation of the building and attempt to convey the special and unique character of this historic location as the gateway to the West of Ireland.
The new accommodation includes a Departures Hall, Check-in Desks, Car Hire and Airline Desks, a 300 seater Restaurant, Bar and additional office space. The top level viewing areas provides for visibility of stationary and airborne aircraft as well as views of the local landscape and the Shannon Estuary.
The Client for the Project is Aer Rianta Cpt., who are currently involved in major infrastructural improvements to Irelands Airport Network.
The project was awarded:
- 2002, RIAI Regional Award
(Commercial Building Category), Winner
- 2000, Construction Excellence Awards
(Leisure & Tourism Category), Awarded
Will try to find the press on those other figures for you. Have the link somewhere.
This Euro 29.2m / £23m redevelopment at Shannon Airport comprises the extension of the existing 1970’s Terminal Building to the West and South and the refurbishment of the current Arrivals Hall. The design of the Building revolves around the specific needs of the passenger for clarity of orientation, ease of movement and for an environment which avoids the introspective aspect of many airports. The elevations and materials signify the functional organisation of the building and attempt to convey the special and unique character of this historic location as the gateway to the West of Ireland.
The new accommodation includes a Departures Hall, Check-in Desks, Car Hire and Airline Desks, a 300 seater Restaurant, Bar and additional office space. The top level viewing areas provides for visibility of stationary and airborne aircraft as well as views of the local landscape and the Shannon Estuary.
The Client for the Project is Aer Rianta Cpt., who are currently involved in major infrastructural improvements to Irelands Airport Network.
The project was awarded:
- 2002, RIAI Regional Award
(Commercial Building Category), Winner
- 2000, Construction Excellence Awards
(Leisure & Tourism Category), Awarded
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Only link I can find at the moment..my figures were a bit off but not much. Better article elsewhere which I will locate at some point..have it in an email somewhere.
(Full article here in 2 pages but this is the important half)
DAA accused of reneging on its responsibilities to Shannon staff
It was suggested to Mr Collier by Deputy Timmy Dooley, that as chief executive of the DAA, he had a duty to protect revenues at Shannon, which he had failed to do.
Deputy Michael Lowry, meanwhile, said the DAA was one of a number of parties who "reneged on their responsibility to the (Shannon) management, workforce and people of the mid-west and protected the interests of Aer Lingus; it is as simple as that."
But Mr Collier rejected any suggestion the DAA was neglecting Shannon. In the three years since it was established to replace Aer Rianta, some ¤40 million had been invested in capital projects and another ¤40 million on the restructuring programme there.
The committee members heard, however, that €180 million had been invested in Cork Airport during the same period.
Mr Shanahan told the committee that of the €40 million in capital investment referred to by Mr Collier, that figure included "potential investment" this year in the US Customs pre-clearance facility that awaits a bilateral agreement with the United States and legislation. The other investment in Shannon in the last three years amounted to just under €17 million.
Securing the green light for Customs and Border Protection was an integral part of the SAA's plans, Mr Shanahan said. Given that, over the past three years, the SAA has made savings of ¤10 million a year and had reversed the a trend from 2000 to 2004 where through traffic was stagnant, the future is bright for Shannon, Mr Shanhan said, provided it is independent and debt-free.
"For years, Shannon has been perceived as a poor mouth, resistant to change, trying to feather its own nest in trying to hold on to a regulated environment and the Open Skies agreement," Mr Shanahan said.
"I believe the opposite is the case because Shannon Airport has a long history of aviation innovation, international duty free originated in Shannon and Aer Rianta International is still based at Shannon.
Shannon Airport was involved in fuel bartering in the early days and started a technical transit business that is unique in Ireland. There is a lot of innovation at Shannon Airport and the employees and unions there were proactive in trying to resolve the cost base issues. The airport is now a lean machine focused on commercial matters rather than regulation that we want to move forward in a competitive world. This is why we believe it must be independent."
(Full article here in 2 pages but this is the important half)
DAA accused of reneging on its responsibilities to Shannon staff
It was suggested to Mr Collier by Deputy Timmy Dooley, that as chief executive of the DAA, he had a duty to protect revenues at Shannon, which he had failed to do.
Deputy Michael Lowry, meanwhile, said the DAA was one of a number of parties who "reneged on their responsibility to the (Shannon) management, workforce and people of the mid-west and protected the interests of Aer Lingus; it is as simple as that."
But Mr Collier rejected any suggestion the DAA was neglecting Shannon. In the three years since it was established to replace Aer Rianta, some ¤40 million had been invested in capital projects and another ¤40 million on the restructuring programme there.
The committee members heard, however, that €180 million had been invested in Cork Airport during the same period.
Mr Shanahan told the committee that of the €40 million in capital investment referred to by Mr Collier, that figure included "potential investment" this year in the US Customs pre-clearance facility that awaits a bilateral agreement with the United States and legislation. The other investment in Shannon in the last three years amounted to just under €17 million.
Securing the green light for Customs and Border Protection was an integral part of the SAA's plans, Mr Shanahan said. Given that, over the past three years, the SAA has made savings of ¤10 million a year and had reversed the a trend from 2000 to 2004 where through traffic was stagnant, the future is bright for Shannon, Mr Shanhan said, provided it is independent and debt-free.
"For years, Shannon has been perceived as a poor mouth, resistant to change, trying to feather its own nest in trying to hold on to a regulated environment and the Open Skies agreement," Mr Shanahan said.
"I believe the opposite is the case because Shannon Airport has a long history of aviation innovation, international duty free originated in Shannon and Aer Rianta International is still based at Shannon.
Shannon Airport was involved in fuel bartering in the early days and started a technical transit business that is unique in Ireland. There is a lot of innovation at Shannon Airport and the employees and unions there were proactive in trying to resolve the cost base issues. The airport is now a lean machine focused on commercial matters rather than regulation that we want to move forward in a competitive world. This is why we believe it must be independent."
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Fair enough, but my point is not to argue over the exact numbers but the concept of fairness. If Shannon had to assume all the debt (and it shouldn't have, nor should Cork) from that development and others, it would still be paying for it, and it would have affected it's ability to perform as a standalone entity.
Here's a idea for a solution to the Cork v Shannon thing. Both sides should team up and just rant against Dublin instead!
Here's a idea for a solution to the Cork v Shannon thing. Both sides should team up and just rant against Dublin instead!
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Angry...if you look at my posts on this thread and the Cork one, I suggested aaaaages ago that both should be venting their anger towards the DAA..thats where the issue lies, and always has. Remember SNN is also fighting for debt free status as you can see from that article.
SNN is not the cause of any woes in ORK and realistically if you really look at those figures Cork is doing a bit better than Shannon investment wise recently. The constant bashing of SNN is tedious and really is not warranted. Bash the DAA if anyone..SNN is just trying to get on with things as best it can but there's no need for all the negativity from certain quarters is all i'm saying (and have been for some time).
SNN is not the cause of any woes in ORK and realistically if you really look at those figures Cork is doing a bit better than Shannon investment wise recently. The constant bashing of SNN is tedious and really is not warranted. Bash the DAA if anyone..SNN is just trying to get on with things as best it can but there's no need for all the negativity from certain quarters is all i'm saying (and have been for some time).
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vkid.....my main points were the appaling management at SNN, the lack of a coherent plan, ridiculous incentives to FR and offering passengers a single airline (loco) choice. FR will dicate SNN and FR only to think otherwise would be delusional.
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As opposed to all the other airports around the place that dictate what FR do ?
As opposed to one or two Skyeurope type lo-co's at SNN?
As opposed to EI non route devlopment at SNN at times when they were the main player?
As opposed to..your alternatives which are....
the appaling management at SNN - who the DAA i or the mgmt that can't do anything without the DAA say so, (who by the way aren't informed of major developemtns for SNN (like EI LHR) ?
the lack of a coherent plan - have you seen the business plan for an independent SNN?
ridiculous incentives - no-one can yet tell us what these ridiulous incentives are? Care to detail these?
As opposed to one or two Skyeurope type lo-co's at SNN?
As opposed to EI non route devlopment at SNN at times when they were the main player?
As opposed to..your alternatives which are....
the appaling management at SNN - who the DAA i or the mgmt that can't do anything without the DAA say so, (who by the way aren't informed of major developemtns for SNN (like EI LHR) ?
the lack of a coherent plan - have you seen the business plan for an independent SNN?
ridiculous incentives - no-one can yet tell us what these ridiulous incentives are? Care to detail these?
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vkid.....i would hope that the discussion can remain rational. However, my understanding is that FR pay 50c per departing pax in year 1 for a based aircraft. In addition they get up to €250,000 in marketing support per route. It has been well recognised that at the outset it was hoped that the majority of the traffic would be inbound driven. Have SNN management charged the additional frequency on Malaga and Tenerife at full charges as the capacity was generated from cancelling existing routes. Yes there are no airline alternatives because of the deal with FR, there will be no more shows in town, the people of the West of Ireland accept FR or go to Dub, I have been going to Dub. The future plan for SNN, was that drafted by MOL.
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FR charges at Shannon
iwhak very interesting numbers that you wrote, it's an amazing deal. Especially when compared to Dublin! Or Stansted. And to top a Marketing grant per route, would make perfect sense to open and close routes the way Ryanair were doing. Do you think that Shannon/Dublin attracted a grant?
I have to admit the debate on Regional airports on here has certainly given me food for thought, there has been some reasonable debate. What I can draw from all of this is that yes we do need a clear aviation policy, a future game plan.
I would read from this post that there is concensus that 1. Big dosh is being given out to regional airports and that is crazily ill thought out & 2. There is not joined up thinking by government on air transport policy???? Does everyone concur?
Well if thats the case what about Dublin Airport. The terminal is costing an absolute fortune.. Way over budget, who pays for that? The decision makers dont give 2 hoots what the final end product ends up costing the airlines, its passengers and tourism when it is finished????
And alas the Cork airport debt, another example of the same. The place was far to expensive and where is all that at?
840- read your post with interest, where you gave some insite into the issues that would drive extra traffic in Feb on ORK LHR, thanks for that!
I have to admit the debate on Regional airports on here has certainly given me food for thought, there has been some reasonable debate. What I can draw from all of this is that yes we do need a clear aviation policy, a future game plan.
I would read from this post that there is concensus that 1. Big dosh is being given out to regional airports and that is crazily ill thought out & 2. There is not joined up thinking by government on air transport policy???? Does everyone concur?
Well if thats the case what about Dublin Airport. The terminal is costing an absolute fortune.. Way over budget, who pays for that? The decision makers dont give 2 hoots what the final end product ends up costing the airlines, its passengers and tourism when it is finished????
And alas the Cork airport debt, another example of the same. The place was far to expensive and where is all that at?
840- read your post with interest, where you gave some insite into the issues that would drive extra traffic in Feb on ORK LHR, thanks for that!
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I see the examiner quoted 70% load factors on the CDG route since January. Not bad considering its a new route and the seasonal factor.
Have to aggree with VKID all the way on the arguement here. Nothing but nay sayers and begrudgers on this forum, most of them who would prefer to see SNN closed in the morning!
Have to aggree with VKID all the way on the arguement here. Nothing but nay sayers and begrudgers on this forum, most of them who would prefer to see SNN closed in the morning!
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fullrich....anytime a healthy debate commences on the affairs of SNN it turns into the usual;
Nothing but nay sayers and begrudgers on this forum, most of them who would prefer to see SNN closed in the morning!
However, it is anything but along with EI-BUD I have been hoping against hope for years that we might have a central strategic approach towards avaition in this country, that recognises the needs of airlines, airports, passengers and the economy. Nobody wishes to see SNN closed, but what we do wish for is strategic thinking that benefits the airport and the region. Again Ei-BUD you are right, most of the major capex programmes for aviation in this country have been ill considered over budget white elephants. I only hope FR paid full charges on DUB, i doubt it though, as it is a non qulaifying route for any support. There is a misconception that the regional or non state airports receive massive funding, it is but a myth. Outside of the capex transport 21 programme the highest annual support is about 1.3m. In fact there are so many conditions attached to the support that there is an argument for not accepting it. Each new route package has to be approved by the department.
Future reports suggest the population of Ireland will grow to 12 million in a relatively short period, lets plan for it now, and let aviation be part of the fundamental planning to absorb such growth. Finally, fullrich is it not disconcerting for SNN that FR starts and stops so many routes, where will it all end, your attitude of leave well enough alone may be the final straw, I am merely asking where is the strategic planning for the future, the route development manager at SNN should be sacked. If proper market forecasting and route evaluation had been carried out most of these routes would never have been started. Please treat as healthy discussion!
Nothing but nay sayers and begrudgers on this forum, most of them who would prefer to see SNN closed in the morning!
However, it is anything but along with EI-BUD I have been hoping against hope for years that we might have a central strategic approach towards avaition in this country, that recognises the needs of airlines, airports, passengers and the economy. Nobody wishes to see SNN closed, but what we do wish for is strategic thinking that benefits the airport and the region. Again Ei-BUD you are right, most of the major capex programmes for aviation in this country have been ill considered over budget white elephants. I only hope FR paid full charges on DUB, i doubt it though, as it is a non qulaifying route for any support. There is a misconception that the regional or non state airports receive massive funding, it is but a myth. Outside of the capex transport 21 programme the highest annual support is about 1.3m. In fact there are so many conditions attached to the support that there is an argument for not accepting it. Each new route package has to be approved by the department.
Future reports suggest the population of Ireland will grow to 12 million in a relatively short period, lets plan for it now, and let aviation be part of the fundamental planning to absorb such growth. Finally, fullrich is it not disconcerting for SNN that FR starts and stops so many routes, where will it all end, your attitude of leave well enough alone may be the final straw, I am merely asking where is the strategic planning for the future, the route development manager at SNN should be sacked. If proper market forecasting and route evaluation had been carried out most of these routes would never have been started. Please treat as healthy discussion!
Last edited by iwhak; 24th Mar 2008 at 20:49.
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ryan2000 I agree!
I couldnt agree- it has certainly been interesting!
What does anyone think that viability would be of a say daily flight up to Belfast? I mean the Cork flight to Belfast City does well and it's a long road trip.
Manx2 is in and out of both Belfast Airports with a Let410( lovely little machine) and it in my opinion would be ideal for a x2 daily Belfast city to Shannon flight and a daily one Belfast to Donegal.
What does anyone think?
What does anyone think that viability would be of a say daily flight up to Belfast? I mean the Cork flight to Belfast City does well and it's a long road trip.
Manx2 is in and out of both Belfast Airports with a Let410( lovely little machine) and it in my opinion would be ideal for a x2 daily Belfast city to Shannon flight and a daily one Belfast to Donegal.
What does anyone think?
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I know I'll probably be shot down as anti Shannon for making this post and daring to question the wisdom of the SAA board, but is any airline at Shannon actually paying full charges?
Ryanair - as detailed above pay just 50c per passenger
Cityjet - Got massive incentives to come to Shannon
Aer Lingus - Got substantial reductions to continue their US services
Belavia - Presumably got a big reduction to return after axing the route
Centralwings - are axing their longest running route Gdansk, leaving Katowice and Warsaw which are both relatively new routes and are probably still under the initial charge reduction
Delta & Continental - are getting a reduction for operating Winter services
This just leaves a few summer only services to the states which probably got big reductions so they would continue post Open Skies and the charters who it would appear are the only ones actually paying the full charges. Presumably another record deficit this year. If Shannon was in the open market it would have gone bankrupt by now. Someone has to pay the bills!
On another note, I don't know if it has been mentioned here already but it was reported in Yesterday's Sunday Independent that the proposed charter services from the US to Shannon this summer will not now go ahead. This has been blamed on the weak dollar.
Ryanair - as detailed above pay just 50c per passenger
Cityjet - Got massive incentives to come to Shannon
Aer Lingus - Got substantial reductions to continue their US services
Belavia - Presumably got a big reduction to return after axing the route
Centralwings - are axing their longest running route Gdansk, leaving Katowice and Warsaw which are both relatively new routes and are probably still under the initial charge reduction
Delta & Continental - are getting a reduction for operating Winter services
This just leaves a few summer only services to the states which probably got big reductions so they would continue post Open Skies and the charters who it would appear are the only ones actually paying the full charges. Presumably another record deficit this year. If Shannon was in the open market it would have gone bankrupt by now. Someone has to pay the bills!
On another note, I don't know if it has been mentioned here already but it was reported in Yesterday's Sunday Independent that the proposed charter services from the US to Shannon this summer will not now go ahead. This has been blamed on the weak dollar.
Last edited by en2r; 24th Mar 2008 at 22:04.
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Thats my point on the regional airports like Galway/Waterford etc getting millions. There is no major need for them
And to the point that there is no major need for them, that would only add to the Dublin centric planning that infects most other public services in Ireland.i.e. new motorways ,railways, health etc.. Why should people in the regions be forced to drive 80/90/100+ to access UK or European flights..and surely the enviromental impact of aviation is reduced if these long Airport drives are reduced.........
For all the subsidies SNN has received, GWY and WAT have even managed to secure AMS flights before SNN. Did Skynet really count?? Something about this fact tells me the regionals are spending their Government subsidies in a much more beneficial way than SNN ever has,and also without a U.S. soldier in sight
