HUMBERSIDE

[aeulad]

How is HUY failing as a commercial airport? It has seen year on year growth since charter flights were introduced in the early 90s. I see from the DSA thread that you are pro DSA, that's fine, and I don't doubt that DSA will be very successful, but you seem to be disillusioned about HUY. WHY does HUY have to attract a lo-co, and why MUST it have rapid growth. It is growing steadily, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Regards

Mike

[lakeside84]

Hi Mike,

Allegedly, internally, MAG is desperate for HUY to get low cost. Subsequently, I think that HUY is targeted to deliver what the group wants it to get. More often these days, an airport is measured on pax, and on destinations. I think that HUY struggles to increase destinations. Low cost can provide an increase in both, literally overnight.

Yes, I am pro DSA, just as I am pro LBA, MME & BHX. These airports all have a strong future.

It makes me smile to think that HUY has been up and running for 20(?) years, and carries (now correctly) just over half a million passengers. DSA will have carried 1.3 million pax by April 2006 (and that's before flybe announce!).

I really wish I could convince you that I'm not talking cr*p, I DO know the score. HUY is, (allegedly) internally, bricking itself... and I'm honestly not sure where they can go next.

If KLM do pull HUY (not that I think they will), but if they DO (and that could be something as simple as KLM deciding to reduce at regionals generally.... If that happened at HUY - I dont see how they could justify opening purely for charter! Some days of the week, even in the summer, there are no charter flights (wednesdays I think) - how sad if they had to start laying off staff, etc. Has anyone thought about the complications of this?

And then think about the winter... Its common knowledge that the KLM & Eastern business keeps HUY going during the winter season.

Just a few things to talk about.

PS: Will PM you re Astreaus.

[7006 fan]

Just to put the record staight. I am pro HUY. The Airport is NOT 'bricking itself', it is NOT 'Lo-cost or die', it is NOT losing charter but GAINING steady business. The hangar is a PRIVATE development NOT HUY. The Business Park fell flat simply because the developer 'lost interest' -but watch this space!!!
Would HUY be about to fall flat on its face if it were:

1/ Building a new heliport (an HUY project)
2/ Enlarged the International Arrivals Hall by 100%
3/ Increased the baggage belt capacity
4/ Refurbished the International Departures Hall
5/ Be increasing car park capacity

Historically (in the last 2 years)

1/ Built a new biz-jet apron (3,000sqm)
2/ Arranged for the refurb and increase in the catering facilities
3/ Allowed the DF shop to enlarge capacity
4/ Renewed and revamped the directional signs, including a big illuminated one atop the terminal
5/ Redecorated the exterior of the terminal and resurfaced a number of roads
6/ Built a 4th car park

NOT the actions of a dying business, is it?!

as for MIR and it falling flat and being pulled. Why? Any route can be tried and pulled, it will be interesting to see how many DSA routes still exist in a year (the two opposing DUB services look the first to create blood on the carpet).

Cheers and happy flying, from wherever it may be

[airhumberside]

It makes me smile to think that HUY has been up and running for 20(?) years, and carries (now correctly) just over half a million passengers. DSA will have carried 1.3 million pax by April 2006 (and that's before flybe announce!).

Flybe havent decided yet apparently so dont get too condfident

Every day of the week sees charters in summer, though Wednesday only has one I think (Helios to Larnaca). In winter there are charters every day except Wednesday

I heard Manchester Airport Developments(MAD) where now in ncharge of the business park. MAD are Manchester Airports property arm

[Leodis]

HUYs future

There is a lot of hype and hysteria about how DSA will affect the region as a whole. Is the new DSA airport going to pull passengers away from HUY, LBA, NEMA and MAN? Well probably at first, but the future of all the airports are based on market forces, or in a nut shell where the passengers want to fly from. I have spoken about this in great lengh on the LBA thread. You need to take a look at the population densities around each airport and add variables then you can start to determine what the probable outcome will be.

How many people live within a 20 minute drive?

This figure will affect its scheduled traffic, a businessman doesn't want a 45 minute drive at 5 in the morning to catch a flight to London or Glasgow. LBA is probably better placed at sustaining growth is this area than say NEMA because of is locality to the cities of Leeds and Bradord. I would expect that long term DSA will have similar scheduled services to NEMA because of its proximity to Sheffield. HUY can probably expect to attract additional domestic services within the lo cost sector with its proximity to Hull.

Is there a proven passenger service?

HUY, LBA, NEMA and MAN all have proved that scheduled services can be operated. LBA and NEMA are better placed to attract additional scheduled services than HUY or DSA. HUY can probably continue to attract a strong charter presance because people want to fly from their local airport. DSA is likely to attract additional lo cost services but because none of the routes that are to be served have been tried before, some may well fail. Thomsonfly will already be aware of where the people of South Yorkshire choose to fly to, through passenger bookings from the region who currently fly from other airports will its sister company.
So Thomsonfly will already be well placed to serve the DSA catchment area.

What are the factors of choosing your departure airport?

A large amount of people don't really care where they fly from as long as its cheap. Sizable amounts of people travel from Scotland to travel from NCL because its cheaper. Large amounts of people in Yorkshire travel to Manchester because they don't have an option from any Yorkshire departure point. Some people only want to fly from their local airport whatever the cost.

Summary

I know there are many more aspects that can be included as a variable but these have just been a small sample. When Humberside extended its runway, LBA thought it was doomed. When LBA gained its 24 hour status, this alone played a large part in LBA increasing its charter operation from around 15-20 flights per week to around 45 per week now. The MAG is in an equable position to fight a future for its HUY operation in respect of its new competition from DSA. MAG may well decide to change their business plan for the expansion of HUY. What we can be sure of, is that the people from the east side of the Pennines are about to get a real choice. When all the fuss about DSA blows over, each airport will begin to find is own ground.

There is a future for all the airports in this region.

Yorkshire the place to be is the city of Leeds.

[7006 fan]

Well said Leodis.
(Apart from the bit about Leeds )

[rufus.t.firefly]

Can someone enlighten on the "new heliport". I thought it was just an additional hangar for the re-location of a police helicopter ?

[7006 fan]

The heliport is for the Police but it is not 'just a hangar'. There is a large office attached to it as well. It will be quite big!

[Nice Jam]

Can someone enlighten on the "new heliport". I thought it was just an additional hangar for the re-location of a police helicopter ?

Not really a new heliport, as such, but an extension of the existing one. There will be an extra heli-spot on an extended apron, with a hangar facing on to it and surrounding office accomodation in what is, at the moment, the middle of car park 1. The car park itself will be extended accross the old A18 access road to provide extra spaces.

[airhumberside]

So that will explain the cones I saw in the car park today. I presume the new roundabout will be at the current enterance

[DC10FAN]

I have used both HUY and LBA regularly and will probably use DSA when flights start. I see no reason why both HUY and DSA can't exist together. The catchment area for DSA will clearly eat into HUY's area but not swallow it completely. If HUY's future was so bleak and demand for flights now reduced then why have some flights just been added? IMO the future of both airports:

DSA(within 2-3 yrs)

2 x based locos(Thomsonfly with 4 a/c and Easyjet/Ryanair with 2 a/c)
2 x based Thomsonfly 757s
1 x based other IT a/c(eg FCA)

HUY

About the same operation as now..ie.
1 x KLC F70
2 x EZE J41s
20-25 Holiday flights in summer/5-8 in winter

I don't see KLM moving their operation to DSA; after all they didn't last long at Sheffield before?
There will always be demand for holiday flights from the local area(Hull/Grimsby/Scunthorpe/Lincoln; population total @550,000); all of which are closer to
HUY than DSA.
Regards the Flybe rumour of an ABZ service; I would say demand is proven at HUY but questionable at DSA but then maybe they don't want to go head-to-head with Eastern. I'm fairly sure who would win though..

[Capt BK]

I find this whole HUY-ABZ thing interesting. The only people that use this service are rig workers, as helicopters use these two airports to serve a fair proportion of the SNS platforms. I started my PPL at HUY nearly 5 years ago and now work as an instructor there and I hever never seen more then about 6 people getting off any one Eastern flight. IMO this service has only survived because the rig workers can claim back travel expenses to their employer and hence don't mind paying the £200+ that Eastern charge.

Now I know pretty much mothing about airline operations and load factors etc but I really wouldn't think there would be a big enough market for Flybe to be interested in from HUY OR DSA. There obviously are looking as people on this thread have stated but it honestly baffles me why?

Incidentally I do have a soft spot for HUY however I am not pro anyone. I would like to see all regional airports developing side by side to secure more labour and investment for the local area as well as increasing my airline prospects

[aeulad]

Lo-co's are about growing the market, and that is what Flybe would do on the HUY-ABZ route. I agree that the route would not be chocca on Flybe, but with a Q400 and it's low operating costs, I'm fairly confident a reasonable return could be achieved.

The Flybe issue is about much more than just Aberdeen.

HUY and DSA both have advantages.

DSA

Advantages:
Market for DSA-EDI, DSA-GLA and DSA-BHD is stronger than from HUY. DSA could sustain at least twice daily ops to these 3 destinations.
No competition on the AMS route.
Market for French regional destinations is strong at DSA.
Larger catchment area.

Disadvantages:
Thomsonfly, already established lo-co.
Hotly rumoured BE expansion at LBA to French regional airports, would BE fly from BOTH LBA and DSA to these places? Unlikely.
Sun routes already in place, no sense in competing.
Dublin is already taken, are are Jersey and Paris.

HUY

Advantages:
Excellent opportunity on sun routes such as Alicante, Malaga, Faro and Palma.
No competiton to Dublin, Jersey and Paris.
Excellent reputation amongst regional population.

Disadvantages:
Limited domestic potential. EDI and GLA markets debateable.
Competition on the ABZ and AMS routes.
Little demand for regional French destinations.

To sum up, DSA offers Domestic and French advantages, and HUY offers sun routes and no lo-co competition. It is unlikely that any decision will be made in the near future by Flybe, but the evidence is there, and neither HUY OR DSA is a dead cert as yet.

Regards

Mike

[airhumberside]

Very good summary of the pros and cons there

[7006 fan]

FlyBE, now there is a bit of quality (I think) that would be nice. Notice all the domestic suggestions are to north of the border. What about London, there must be a market for either LGW or LCY. Someone told me HUY used to do HUY LHR with a Shorts 'tin can' and the route was v. popular. dunno who did it and why did it stop. Would be great if they offered the flight. Could get some decent shopping in the West End without the bump and grind of good old GNER and TPX!!

[Jet2LBA]

The old services to LHR back in the 1980's were with Air UK on their Shorts 360's. The flight actually routed via NWI, though towards the end of it's life I think the NWI stage was dropped and it became non-stop.

As for Eastern's pax loads on HUY-ABZ, they actually average around 15-20 on each flight and attracts significantly more passengers than their LBA-ABZ. I know as I used to work for T3 and saw the pax figures for every flight. Probably still not enough to warrant a FlyBe service but just wanted to let people know that loads are ok on the route.

[circseam]

As an observer of the many lows and few highs of HUY for over 35 years I can only hope the airport owners have a business plan not to compete wih DSA but to compliement it.

My observations over the years is that HUY is not sustainable by relying on scheduled flights, as pereviously mentioned on this and other threads, there is just not a big enough catchment area to attract both regional and low cost operators to the airport.

As for the engineering hangar, it seems this could attract further traffic to the airport but as previously stated, whom would use the hangar regularly to make this a feasible option. I presume Eastern have their own maintainence hangar at the airport and would'nt contract out their work.

The current chairman of Eastern, then owner of the original Eastern back in the 80's made public his intentions to start an express package handling centre at the airport but this never came to anything. But on that thought, would HUY be a cheaper option than flying freight into the main airports then distributing said freight via the good motorway connections from the M180. Probably not pratical but just a thought!

[airhumberside]

I presume Eastern have their own maintainence hangar at the airport and would'nt contract out their work.

Eastern do have their own maintenance hangar at the airport

[7006 fan]

Thank Heavens, people are talking beyond 'bucket and spade' and scheduled services and towards things that really create jobs. As we all know Airport pay is not that brilliant and it can be a toss-up (for some people) whether Tesco check-out pay is better, especially with delayed flights and extra rosters etc. A maintenance hangar would facilitate skilled jobs and the opportunity for training, add to this; as mentioned earlier, some form of 'spoke' parcel service creating data management jobs etc and things could start rocking.
HUY has a future, certainly not competing with Finningley's 'subsidised to the hilt' lo-cost (and no-one tell me there are no incentives and Thomsonfly are paying book rate) Given there is so much Objective 1 euromoney in Finningley might Charleoi be an issue, who knows.!
Anyhow Humberside looks set to be stable and not 'peak and trough' like some other Airports and they are doing it with profits without the need to cut staff or pay. ( I read somewhere Ryanair pay their training FO 's/newly qualifieds about £8,500pa!!!)
Humberside has a loyal following, despite what one sees in the press and written in some sectors of the community here. It has no illusions of being Heathrow or predicting massive passenger numbers (unlike some) and what is the point of maxxing effort for minimal return, which makes better sense in a CBA?:
1.5m pax and £10,000 profit
.5m pax and £10,000 profit

I know which I would prefer to grow!

[aeulad]

The rail links between the HUY catchment area and London have improved greatly with the introduction of trains from Hull to London. However, i would bet money on the fact that a twice daily Q400 HUY-LGW flight would be successful.

Regards

Mike