DERRY/LONDONDERRY

[CARNMANORLAD]

So NOC have just had Lufthansa announce operations from 2012. I say fair play to them but wat the f*ck are LDY management doing? They seem to get paid this big wage and if im honest i havent seen a proactive thing they have done regarding routes or new airlines. I mean we are NI's 2nd city and the UK City of Culture.

[cuthere]

Carn, a bit of realism is required I think.

Derry might be NI's second city, and the 4th largest on the island, but in the context of the UK and indeed Europe, Derry is just a large town, with a small airport, competing directly with two larger, more established airports up the road (and to a lesser extent, NOC).

As for 2013, that's a way away yet, so there's still time for airlines to announce new routes for then; but what you have to consider is who will these airlines be? BE and EZY don't really want to dilute their established offerings up the road, and FR's planes are too large for some of the thinner routes (EDI, BRS, NCL etc). Who does that leave?

Any suggestions should be posted directly to the "over-paid" management at CODA I reckon.

[NorthernCounties]

A further bit of reality... People want to fly to knock cause it provides what foreigners think is stereotypical ireland and als ni doesnt provide that. Furthermore, its a once weekly flight on a relatively small craft. They don't even operate flights to Belfast either, so no chance of Derry getting it.

What ldy needs is for flybe to have a pair of balls. I bet be could easily encounter great lf's if it established a base here accompanied by a number of destinations such as edi, brs, ncl, lgw and dare I say ams! But alas, people in power over things done have such a fondness for ldy as we would like...

[CARNMANORLAD]

Furthermore, its a once weekly flight on a relatively small craft. They don't even operate flights to Belfast either, so no chance of Derry getting it.

It never crossed my mind that Lufty would come to LDY, what i'm trying to state is LDY and NOC are similar sized although LDY has a bigger apron, NOC has the stereotypical Ireland as you said Northern but LDY has Donegal and the North Coast as it's advantage points. LDY is also the 2nd fastest growing airport PAX wise in the UK this year, but then all you have to do is look at the Winter schedule and ask how can it be so bad when the Summer has been excellent?

Also Cuthere your right who is going to be willing to try out LDY. As you have already stated BE & EZY don't want to harm there bases up the road. When you take both of these out there ain't really much of a choice left unless Aer Lingus Regional but that's doubtful after the Aer Arann fiasco.

I see on BE's webpage the drop down menu now only includes September 2011. It previously had upto March 2012.

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by CARNMANORLAD

When you take both of these out there ain't really much of a choice left unless Aer Lingus Regional but that's doubtful after the Aer Arann fiasco.

What fiasco? If you're referring to them scrapping plans to have a base in Derry, that was due to poor forward bookings. They marketed the base opening well, so it was well known, but obviously there just wasn't the market for it.

Even with a subsidised PSO route to Dublin, a route which ran for years and offered passengers dozens of connections with various airlines, Aer Arann still couldn't even half fill an ATR 42 and many times cancelled the flight because they would've lost less money by bussing the few passengers they had up to Derry. So its no wonder the government scrapped it.

While Derry might be the 4th largest city in Ireland, it will only ever have a regional airport with limited connections because of it's close proximity to Belfast. The reality is if Shannon offered airlines the same incentives as Knock is, Knock wouldn't be getting half the traffic it is now. But because Shannon is constrained by what it can offer airlines because of restrictions imposed on it by DAA management, Knock is in a position to compete for routes that would've otherwise gone to Shannon. Same goes for Kerry.

So while its great to see a regional airport like Knock doing so well and getting these kind of connections, I don't see it lasting long should Shannon ever become independent of the DAA (which now seems very likely to happen soon). Then we'll more than likely see Shannon offering very competitive incentives to airlines, and growth at IWAK will come to an abrupt halt and come back down to a level similar to what we see in Derry.

[CARNMANORLAD]

What fiasco? If you're referring to them scrapping plans to have a base in Derry, that was due to poor forward bookings. They marketed the base opening well, so it was well known, but obviously there just wasn't the market for it.

The fiasco being the unreliability of RE on the route as seen from a passengers point of view ie cancellations. The truth is RE destroyed the route after taking it over. BA & Loganair had a very succesful route. RE came onto the route with new timings which were terrible for the business PAX.

[dublinaviator]

The fiasco being the unreliability of RE on the route as seen from a passengers point of view ie cancellations. The truth is RE destroyed the route after taking it over. BA & Loganair had a very succesful route. RE came onto the route with new timings which were terrible for the business PAX.

I don't buy that for a second. The only reason Aer Arann were cancelling flights to begin with was because their loads were reduced to single digits, and it was cheaper to just bus the passengers up to Derry than go ahead with the flight and face losing money with the price of fuel.

As for timings, these are decided by the government, not Aer Arann. Obviously Aer Arann have a bit of flexibility, but the government would've told them they need to provide a morning and evening flight. If you look at Aer Arann's most recent timetable before the ending of the PSO, they had very reasonable timings for business passengers - http://www.aerarann.com/travel_infor...able20May2.pdf

Also I don't know how you can claim that Loganair ran the route successfully when the route has been subsidised by the government for the last 10 years at least, and despite Aer Arann having dropped the route, neither Loganair or any other airline has taken it up commercially. Why? Because they know they'd lose money.

[CARNMANORLAD]

Oh dear, sounds like you may be a really defensive RE employee?

The RE timings were not reasonable, arriving in DUB at 1030 IF you were lucky. Most meetings have started by then. The evening service was fine but it had single digits due to business PAX not taking the morning service.

Loganair did run the route succesfully in terms of LF's, they had there repeat clientel and from talking to a few people who work at LDY, on a MON & FRI there were even standby passengers. No airline will run a route within Ireland commercially because of the money issues and thats exactly why every route within Ireland that still is viable is subsidided!

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by CARNMANORLAD

Loganair did run the route succesfully in terms of LF's, they had there repeat clientel and from talking to a few people who work at LDY, on a MON & FRI there were even standby passengers.

Its called a recession buddy.

Loganair operated the route during the boom, at a time that was arguably the golden age for Irish aviation in terms of passenger throughput. Even when Aer Arann took it over from them, they were getting decent loads. But then the recession hit and loads nosedived.

Originally Posted by CARNMANORLAD

No airline will run a route within Ireland commercially because of the money issues and thats exactly why every route within Ireland that still is viable is subsidided!

Not true, Cork-Belfast was one of Aer Arann's most profitable routes and was very popular with business travellers, and if not for a lack of aircraft it would still be operating today. I also think Aer Arann could return to flying Cork-Dublin again and make money out of it, which they did for years before Ryanair came on the route.

[CARNMANORLAD]

I see tomorrows DUB-REU with Spanair is cancelled for some reason. Will this mean the REU-LDY sector will be cancelled? I realise tomorrows LDY flight is inbound only as it's the last of the season.

[Fly_bill]

Dublinaviator thats wishful thinking re Shannon, why even if shannon was seperated from the DAA should airlines choose to fly there over airports like Knock? What has it got to offer that Knock hasnt? its only 2 hours from Cork, Knock is more advantgeoiusly located as it lies in the heart of the West and the North West so bit of a strange comment to say Knocks growth would come to an abrupt end if shannon was deregulated on what fact is this based? facts are shannon lost €8m last year, even if it was seperated who going to service the debt?

[dublinaviator]

Originally Posted by Fly bill

Dublinaviator thats wishful thinking re Shannon, why even if shannon was seperated from the DAA should airlines choose to fly there over airports like Knock? What has it got to offer that Knock hasnt? its only 2 hours from Cork, Knock is more advantgeoiusly located as it lies in the heart of the West and the North West

Without going too off-topic as this is the Derry thread, Shannon has a much larger catchment area than Knock. It also has much better facilities than Knock.

Originally Posted by Fly bill

so bit of a strange comment to say Knocks growth would come to an abrupt end if shannon was deregulated on what fact is this based?

I don't see whats so strange about it. See my post above, Shannon has a much larger catchment area than Knock, so if it were to bring down it's charges and offer similar incentives as Knock, then its inevitable that Knock would suffer.

Originally Posted by Fly bill

facts are shannon lost €8m last year, even if it was seperated who going to service the debt?

Facts are that Shannon is part of the DAA, and as such is restricted in what it can do in terms of manoeuvring to reposition itself for growth, i.e. if DAA says it has to increase charges then it has to increase charges.

But how do you think airports make money? The more airlines, routes and passengers going through the airport, the more money they make. Bringing down charges doesn't necessarily mean making less money, it all depends on economies of scale.

[Fly_bill]

I dont see how shannon has a bigger catchment given the overlap with Cork, Knock is only international airport with jet capacility all the way from Galway to Donegal with well over 1m+ in their catchment so think this the statement that they have a much bigger catchment is over stated. Agree if shannon was more competitive Knock would be impacted but to say it would come to an 'abrupt end' is a bit sensationalist as they have the carriers in place now such as Flybe and Lufthansa and if successful no reason why they wont grow further. Agree shannon facilities are prob a little better but have you been in Knock lately - the developments there over last 12-18 months have been signifcant. Again if they seperate from the DAA who going to service the massive debt and huge changes to staff numbers / contracts would ensue which would be extremely messy - I say fair play to likes of Knock and Derry keep up the good work lads!

[Jamie2k9]

I see tomorrows DUB-REU with Spanair is cancelled for some reason. Will this mean the REU-LDY sector will be cancelled? I realise tomorrows LDY flight is inbound only as it's the last of the season.

Its a mistake in system, should of be removed, it only an inbound like LDY as well.

[Mayfly1]

Flybill agree, the reason knock is sussessul is that it runs as a commercial airport,runs efficiently and manages resources cost effectivley.
It is clearly very competitive with airlines and for it's size is punching way beyond it's weight one could argue.
If Shannon or for that matter Cork ever are privatised then the cost base will have to be radically restructured ie cut deep.. This is clearly what the chairman of Shannon Airport is hinting at in today's Irish times
see article below
even then it's doubtful if they could ever match the guys in knock for the way they continue to beat the trend...
One can only stand back and admire their achievements in managing to have some of the largest European airlines flying into the west of ireland

CIARÁN HANCOCK, Business Affairs Correspondent THE CHAIRMAN of the Shannon Airport Authority Brian O’Connell has said it needs to change its business model if it is to have a financially viable future.

“It is clear that the ways and means we have organised and managed business in the past have to change, to take into account the reality of present and future market challenges,” Mr O’Connell said yesterday.

“It is no longer sustainable for any business to continue in a loss-making mode.

“Every business, including Shannon airport, must reconfigure itself and re-engineer its future in the light of the dramatically changed economic landscape.”

Shannon is currently loss-making.

In March, David Dilger, the then chairman of the Dublin Airport Authority, which has responsibility for Shannon, said the Co Clare airport recorded a loss of €8 million last year.

Mr O’Connell’s comments were made in letters sent to local media.

He did not outline what proposals the SAA submitted to Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar, following his request in June for its view on the separation of the three Dublin Airport Authority airports.

The authority had considered a “wide range of options” to “optimise and maximise” Shannon’s “commercial potential”.

Mr O’Connell added that it had “examined locations similar to Shannon around the world, which are operating successfully”.

[cuthere]

Ok folks (and I thought that this is what the Moderators are for), this is the Derry/Londonderry/Eglinton/CODA thread ( I exclude Jamie2K9 and the usual LDY posters)

So:

Without going too off-topic as this is the Derry thread, Shannon has a much larger catchment area than Knock. It also has much better facilities than Knock.

is a classic case of going off-topic.

As is the rest of the NOC/SNN ****e. Take it elsewhere please!!!!

[cuthere]

Back to LDY (NOT!) Dublin(AerArannUseItOrLoseIt(I may have used artistic licence there))Aviator said:

Not true, Cork-Belfast was one of Aer Arann's most profitable routes and was very popular with business travellers, and if not for a lack of aircraft it would still be operating today.

Which is why it was binned......a brilliant, BRILLIANT business model. "Which is our best performing route" "I reckon that's ORK-BHD" " Grand, sure we'll lose that route due to a shortage of aircraft"

And people wonder why the Derry/Londonderry punter wasn't keen on coughing up LDY-MAN and LDY-EDI fares.........

[CARNMANORLAD]

Statistics for Aug 2011

(Route/Flights/Pax/Lf)

Stansted/80/168.3/89%
Liverpool/54/141.2/75%
Birmingham/36/158/84%
Prestwick/52/118.7/63%
Manchester/42/58.9/75%
Alicante/18/157.5/83%
Faro/24/157.4/83%
Tenerife/10/163.2/86%
Palma/10/186/98%
Reus/8/168.7/94%

[FR-]

Great set of numbers, esp with regards to PMI and REU

[cuthere]

For those wishing to know total pax for August, that was 47,053, +20.2%.

Great stuff!