Cape Flying Services...south Africa
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CFI- CFS
It would be very easy to lose composure and fall into the points scoring scenario, but I think I have a little more intelligence and respect for this forum than to fall for the obvious temptation, however, I understand there may be a need to clarify certain points.
Naunton Pugh, Cape Flying Services including yourself or any other person you think may have had a vested interest has had more than enough time since my departure from South Africa in April this year to address any issue, justified or not and to deal with such issues in an appropriate and civilised manner. Indeed, I have in my possession a document dossier of about 60 pages of information, facts, correspondence, newspaper articles and other material relating to this whole sad affair.
The points of my case at this stage are not really relevant as you and Naunton Pugh clearly emphasised through the correspondence of one line responses to my comprehensive letters in April and May of this year. These letters have clearly put my points across but I was merely brushed aside as irrelevant. My personal meeting with you prior to leaving South Africa indicated a clear and dismissive attitude from yourself. Every reasonable effort was made by me to resolve the issue, through you personally and Naunton Pugh, as the person issuing the contract. Needless to say, all these efforts were made prior bringing this issue into the public domain.
Naunton Pugh was issued a warning on 26th June this year by the County Court that I wish to recover damages from him. He was sent the 60 page dossier and also given until 12th July 2003 to respond by issuing his defence. This date passed without a defence being entered and he was further issued a Default Judgment on 17th July 2003. He is/ was fully aware of the situation and was given the chance to come to court and argue his case; likewise I would have had the same opportunity. He chose to ignore the papers sent to him. This is the legal system in the UK that gives rights to persons who believe that they have been wronged by a person/ company who has supplied sub standard goods or services. My contract is with Naunton Pugh and thus my legal redress is with him, your authorised agent. Indeed, if the legal opportunities were with Cape Flying Services in George I would have without a shadow of doubt and using your words “taken you on” within the South African legal framework. Your terminology of the “evil use of the legal system” is at best insulting and derogatory to any civilised state.
We both live in a democracy where freedom of speech is upheld within the law. I chose; believe me, as a last resort the available legal system to redress the balance and for whatever arguable reason. Naunton Pugh had the chance to argue his point and did not choose to. I feel I have been treated unfairly by your organization and will use whatever legal means available to me to highlight this treatment and help to prevent further unsuspecting people from being unfairly treated, either by your organization or any other. Any issue I have mentioned in any media is not nasty, slanderous or libel but fact, including the Court Judgment against Naunton Pugh. It is not reasonable human behaviour to just accept that they have been wronged and just get on with it. I know there are other people out there who have had a great and worthwhile visit to your set up, however, there are other people just like me, but at least, I put my words to actions such as my strength of conviction. No doubt, over the past few months you have been putting your house in order, this is a positive situation arguably perhaps due to this issue being aired in open forums like this one.
It would be very easy to lose composure and fall into the points scoring scenario, but I think I have a little more intelligence and respect for this forum than to fall for the obvious temptation, however, I understand there may be a need to clarify certain points.
Naunton Pugh, Cape Flying Services including yourself or any other person you think may have had a vested interest has had more than enough time since my departure from South Africa in April this year to address any issue, justified or not and to deal with such issues in an appropriate and civilised manner. Indeed, I have in my possession a document dossier of about 60 pages of information, facts, correspondence, newspaper articles and other material relating to this whole sad affair.
The points of my case at this stage are not really relevant as you and Naunton Pugh clearly emphasised through the correspondence of one line responses to my comprehensive letters in April and May of this year. These letters have clearly put my points across but I was merely brushed aside as irrelevant. My personal meeting with you prior to leaving South Africa indicated a clear and dismissive attitude from yourself. Every reasonable effort was made by me to resolve the issue, through you personally and Naunton Pugh, as the person issuing the contract. Needless to say, all these efforts were made prior bringing this issue into the public domain.
Naunton Pugh was issued a warning on 26th June this year by the County Court that I wish to recover damages from him. He was sent the 60 page dossier and also given until 12th July 2003 to respond by issuing his defence. This date passed without a defence being entered and he was further issued a Default Judgment on 17th July 2003. He is/ was fully aware of the situation and was given the chance to come to court and argue his case; likewise I would have had the same opportunity. He chose to ignore the papers sent to him. This is the legal system in the UK that gives rights to persons who believe that they have been wronged by a person/ company who has supplied sub standard goods or services. My contract is with Naunton Pugh and thus my legal redress is with him, your authorised agent. Indeed, if the legal opportunities were with Cape Flying Services in George I would have without a shadow of doubt and using your words “taken you on” within the South African legal framework. Your terminology of the “evil use of the legal system” is at best insulting and derogatory to any civilised state.
We both live in a democracy where freedom of speech is upheld within the law. I chose; believe me, as a last resort the available legal system to redress the balance and for whatever arguable reason. Naunton Pugh had the chance to argue his point and did not choose to. I feel I have been treated unfairly by your organization and will use whatever legal means available to me to highlight this treatment and help to prevent further unsuspecting people from being unfairly treated, either by your organization or any other. Any issue I have mentioned in any media is not nasty, slanderous or libel but fact, including the Court Judgment against Naunton Pugh. It is not reasonable human behaviour to just accept that they have been wronged and just get on with it. I know there are other people out there who have had a great and worthwhile visit to your set up, however, there are other people just like me, but at least, I put my words to actions such as my strength of conviction. No doubt, over the past few months you have been putting your house in order, this is a positive situation arguably perhaps due to this issue being aired in open forums like this one.
Last edited by sanjo69; 7th Aug 2003 at 01:20.
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Nice one sandy
I have seen a few people treated in a bad way by a flying school in SA, this should act as an inspiration to them. All too often people are promised the impossible to get them over to a school far away, only to find out it is impossible. And to be honest your situation was ludicrous, to be told you could get a PPL in 18 days beggars belief, I seem to remember the George weather being a bit unpredictable into the bargain. This agent obviously only cared about his commision. And to think he holds a 'respected' position in the flight training media. I sincerely hope this ruins him, it may make other 'agents' think twice before making wild promises.
I have seen a few people treated in a bad way by a flying school in SA, this should act as an inspiration to them. All too often people are promised the impossible to get them over to a school far away, only to find out it is impossible. And to be honest your situation was ludicrous, to be told you could get a PPL in 18 days beggars belief, I seem to remember the George weather being a bit unpredictable into the bargain. This agent obviously only cared about his commision. And to think he holds a 'respected' position in the flight training media. I sincerely hope this ruins him, it may make other 'agents' think twice before making wild promises.
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Don't let this put you off South Africa
I just hope that a lot of prospective students read this public airing of dirty linen and then decide SA isn't the place for them. Its the nature of the world that these kind of disputes will occur in life and what saddens me at the end of the day is that the only winner is usually some shark of lawyer.
SA on the whole is a great place to learn to fly, the people are generally friendly and professional. CFS has been in business for years and you simply don't survive for years (as a private company) by shafting your clients. In Sandy's case may be CFS didn't quite perform to par but lets not tar flight training in SA with a negative brush.
I think George is on the whole a pretty decent environment to learn to fly. The town itself is dead if it's a party atmosphere you're looking for, but you've got Knysna and Plett to make up for it. It's not as windy as PE or as congested as CT. I'll admit that George has it's own weather (which has seen me spend a few unplanned nights in Oudtshoorn) but apart from that it's a decent place to learn to fly.
SA on the whole is a great place to learn to fly, the people are generally friendly and professional. CFS has been in business for years and you simply don't survive for years (as a private company) by shafting your clients. In Sandy's case may be CFS didn't quite perform to par but lets not tar flight training in SA with a negative brush.
I think George is on the whole a pretty decent environment to learn to fly. The town itself is dead if it's a party atmosphere you're looking for, but you've got Knysna and Plett to make up for it. It's not as windy as PE or as congested as CT. I'll admit that George has it's own weather (which has seen me spend a few unplanned nights in Oudtshoorn) but apart from that it's a decent place to learn to fly.
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Sandy With your amount of life experience behind you I would have to believe that you were the author of your own problems. Surely no one could believe that getting any licence in such a short time span must be wishful thinking. An aptitude test would surely have been appropriate before committing that amount of funding up front. And taking 25 hours to solo would surely have shown up in any aptitude test that this was not a wise move.
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I have been following this thread with interest.
As a resident of both UK and RSA I must take exception of the phrase "evil use of the legal sytem". In both countries the system is not perfect, but in UK it is a hell of a lot more perfect than in RSA.
I have no idea of who is actually right or wrong in this case, but Sandy seems to have followed the the legal grievance pathway correctly.
Pugh appears to be a high profile figure so I don't see how he could "have no knowledge of this" and not put a defence up in court. A default judgement was granted.
Finally I must agree with Goffel & Guns. To all you Wannabees- RSA is a great place to start your flying. 80% of the pilots I employ have moved through the flying schools in RSA. Don't be put off by this (relatively minor) spat, but do do your homework before parting with cash.
As a resident of both UK and RSA I must take exception of the phrase "evil use of the legal sytem". In both countries the system is not perfect, but in UK it is a hell of a lot more perfect than in RSA.
I have no idea of who is actually right or wrong in this case, but Sandy seems to have followed the the legal grievance pathway correctly.
Pugh appears to be a high profile figure so I don't see how he could "have no knowledge of this" and not put a defence up in court. A default judgement was granted.
Finally I must agree with Goffel & Guns. To all you Wannabees- RSA is a great place to start your flying. 80% of the pilots I employ have moved through the flying schools in RSA. Don't be put off by this (relatively minor) spat, but do do your homework before parting with cash.
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Shame on you George Tower for your slanderous comments on George being a dead town. Don't you know about the army ladies? Or what about the Herolds Bay Hotel? Well it was lively 15 years ago....
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Judgment Hearing
I am surprised to see Mr Todd continuing to degrade the UK Court Sytem.
Let me explain the facts, On Monday 29th September 2003, Mr Pugh, the agent for CFS in the UK was sucessful in having the judgment set aside based on a technical "date of issue" point, it was not because it was issued illegally or that he doesnt have a case to answer but more perhaps a sign that the UK court system is more fairer contrary to some beliefs.
The full hearing is due to take place at the end of this month where both parties will be given the opportunity to present its case and leave the judge to make his final decision on the matter. Obviously this hearing will be time consuming, expensive and totally unecessary as in my opinion and to a greater extent very clear ( as day and night) that CFS (Europe) owes me money. The question is just how much!
As is well documented on this thread within this website this action had become necessary due to inability or willingness of Mr Pugh, either as an individual or joint with CFS, irrespective, and to resolve the matter.
As a further gesture of reconcilliation, Friday, Last week I have presented a fair and reasonable offer to Mr Pugh's lawyer, to resolve this issue thus preventing an expensive court hearing.
I am still awaiting a response from them, however, this case is still very much ongoing and very unfortunate for all concerned and at the end of it, to which I hope Mr Todd realises, there will be no winners !
regards
Sandy Young
Let me explain the facts, On Monday 29th September 2003, Mr Pugh, the agent for CFS in the UK was sucessful in having the judgment set aside based on a technical "date of issue" point, it was not because it was issued illegally or that he doesnt have a case to answer but more perhaps a sign that the UK court system is more fairer contrary to some beliefs.
The full hearing is due to take place at the end of this month where both parties will be given the opportunity to present its case and leave the judge to make his final decision on the matter. Obviously this hearing will be time consuming, expensive and totally unecessary as in my opinion and to a greater extent very clear ( as day and night) that CFS (Europe) owes me money. The question is just how much!
As is well documented on this thread within this website this action had become necessary due to inability or willingness of Mr Pugh, either as an individual or joint with CFS, irrespective, and to resolve the matter.
As a further gesture of reconcilliation, Friday, Last week I have presented a fair and reasonable offer to Mr Pugh's lawyer, to resolve this issue thus preventing an expensive court hearing.
I am still awaiting a response from them, however, this case is still very much ongoing and very unfortunate for all concerned and at the end of it, to which I hope Mr Todd realises, there will be no winners !
regards
Sandy Young
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Stay away of Gerald Todd, unless you can agree with him to '' Pay as you Fly ''. Don't pay CFS, or any other Flightschool for this matter, more than 2000 Rand in advance !!
If you pay him ( or them ) more, he (or they) got you by the balls (male students only !!), which will hurt you 9 out of 10 times !!
I could not continue my Flight Training with CFS because my (positive !!!!!!) account balance got below 16.000 Rand !!!!!!
Together with this very disapointing experience and all kind of ''promises'' of co-piloting some Cargo Albatross........(.being a white guy with a Eurppean Passport........YEAH SURE..do you believe it ???????? ......... yeah, me idiot, I did then.
WE ALL TRY TO MAKE OUR DREAMS COME TRUE......RIGHT !! I decided to lick my ( financial)wounds and leave beautiful South Africa ( this is 1995 by the way..!!).. heading for Flight Safety Academy, Vero Beach, Florida, USA.
At this time I'am flying Corperate in the States, can't beat a Lear at 410 !!
Just wanted to share my experience with all of you who have to make a mayor discision in their young lives, which at the end of the day, might turn out to be a very important one!!
Says who ......??? A now 47 year old horses mouth out of an old CFS stable.
Gerald, I hope Sally and the kids are in good health, because besides of the fact that I think you should change your financial management(like I told you when I left) we had our good moments at the campfire !!!!
Please give them my regards !!
Take care everyone, Fly Safe ..!!
Gary Pols
If you pay him ( or them ) more, he (or they) got you by the balls (male students only !!), which will hurt you 9 out of 10 times !!
I could not continue my Flight Training with CFS because my (positive !!!!!!) account balance got below 16.000 Rand !!!!!!
Together with this very disapointing experience and all kind of ''promises'' of co-piloting some Cargo Albatross........(.being a white guy with a Eurppean Passport........YEAH SURE..do you believe it ???????? ......... yeah, me idiot, I did then.
WE ALL TRY TO MAKE OUR DREAMS COME TRUE......RIGHT !! I decided to lick my ( financial)wounds and leave beautiful South Africa ( this is 1995 by the way..!!).. heading for Flight Safety Academy, Vero Beach, Florida, USA.
At this time I'am flying Corperate in the States, can't beat a Lear at 410 !!
Just wanted to share my experience with all of you who have to make a mayor discision in their young lives, which at the end of the day, might turn out to be a very important one!!
Says who ......??? A now 47 year old horses mouth out of an old CFS stable.
Gerald, I hope Sally and the kids are in good health, because besides of the fact that I think you should change your financial management(like I told you when I left) we had our good moments at the campfire !!!!
Please give them my regards !!
Take care everyone, Fly Safe ..!!
Gary Pols
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General Flight training
Gary.........thanks for the time and effort to comment on this thread
it was very, very tempting but I decided to leave it !
However, it is very unfortunate that whilst there are many problems ocurring within the Flight training enviroment so few people have the gaul to expose it.
There are many people who have freely without prompting expressed personal dissatisfaction at his particular flying school.
In particular, when I was there and for whatever reason and you all know who you are !! I wish to say to them don't just talk or winge about it ! Do something about it ! I did and will see this through to it's right and correct conclusion, allbeit, it takes time, money and above all, patience.
Don't let the people concerned believe that they are untouchable and any better than you and me, the law is there in whatever country you reside, to protect you from enduring these sorts of practices, use the law!! Don't be a coward and keep quiet or simply walk away!!!
Point made ?
it was very, very tempting but I decided to leave it !
However, it is very unfortunate that whilst there are many problems ocurring within the Flight training enviroment so few people have the gaul to expose it.
There are many people who have freely without prompting expressed personal dissatisfaction at his particular flying school.
In particular, when I was there and for whatever reason and you all know who you are !! I wish to say to them don't just talk or winge about it ! Do something about it ! I did and will see this through to it's right and correct conclusion, allbeit, it takes time, money and above all, patience.
Don't let the people concerned believe that they are untouchable and any better than you and me, the law is there in whatever country you reside, to protect you from enduring these sorts of practices, use the law!! Don't be a coward and keep quiet or simply walk away!!!
Point made ?
Last edited by sanjo69; 15th Oct 2003 at 02:49.
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Court action update
CFS COURT CASE UPDATE
Important information
It has been some time since the last posting on the saga so I thought I would give you an update on the current state of affairs relating to my court proceedings against Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe). This matter does have and has created an enormous amount of public interest, no more so than by just the shear number of hits on this thread.
A full hearing of this matter took place at Cambridge County Court on 25th March 2004, nearly one year on since my visit to Cape Flying Services in George South Africa to undertake my PPL course.
This hearing was set to last 4 hours and it had taken nearly four hours to just establish who the contract was actually with and after resulting from careful and painstakingly perusal of all documents supplied by Mr Pugh. Bearing in mind that Mr Pugh has argued throughout and vigorously that the contract was not with him but with Gerald Todd in South Africa, that is, Cape Flying Services George CC. Fundamentally and most importantly the judge agreed with me, as I have always said, that the contract was indeed with Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) and not with South Africa and issued a “liability” judgment against the defendant.
So what does this mean: quite simply that any breach of contract, damages and costs possibly awarded to me at a later hearing will be borne solely by the defendant, Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) and not Cape Flying Services George CC. The details of this case are well documented and needless to say that there is a strong case for him to answer at the forthcoming hearing.
Also this judgment is important as it sets a precedent for all other students who booked their courses through the defendant, being based in Europe, in particular, UK based students and who may feel that they have a case against him that it is not necessary to travel back to South Africa and pursue their case in a South African court but they can pursue him in a European court for redress. It will also serve a warning to himself that he is responsible for ensuring that the services he advertises is in fact provided when he “sub contracts” it to Cape Flying Services George CC, irrespective of his business relationship with South Africa.
I have calculated that I have made at least 8 proposals to settle this matter without any counter offer from the defendant, he has colluded with Gerald Todd, concocted and continues to make serious personal and abusive attacks throughout this case that quite simply strikes at the heart of the integrity or professionalism of both the school and him. These stinging and slanderous comments will be made available to the court in due course to highlight the downright obstructive and venomous attitude. This case did not need to be pursued in the UK courts or in any court for that matter as it should have been dealt with long time ago. Both the defendant and Gerald Todd have forced me into this and I will see it through to its correct conclusion.
I will keep the forum up to date with the outcome.
Thank you,
Sandy Young
Important information
It has been some time since the last posting on the saga so I thought I would give you an update on the current state of affairs relating to my court proceedings against Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe). This matter does have and has created an enormous amount of public interest, no more so than by just the shear number of hits on this thread.
A full hearing of this matter took place at Cambridge County Court on 25th March 2004, nearly one year on since my visit to Cape Flying Services in George South Africa to undertake my PPL course.
This hearing was set to last 4 hours and it had taken nearly four hours to just establish who the contract was actually with and after resulting from careful and painstakingly perusal of all documents supplied by Mr Pugh. Bearing in mind that Mr Pugh has argued throughout and vigorously that the contract was not with him but with Gerald Todd in South Africa, that is, Cape Flying Services George CC. Fundamentally and most importantly the judge agreed with me, as I have always said, that the contract was indeed with Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) and not with South Africa and issued a “liability” judgment against the defendant.
So what does this mean: quite simply that any breach of contract, damages and costs possibly awarded to me at a later hearing will be borne solely by the defendant, Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) and not Cape Flying Services George CC. The details of this case are well documented and needless to say that there is a strong case for him to answer at the forthcoming hearing.
Also this judgment is important as it sets a precedent for all other students who booked their courses through the defendant, being based in Europe, in particular, UK based students and who may feel that they have a case against him that it is not necessary to travel back to South Africa and pursue their case in a South African court but they can pursue him in a European court for redress. It will also serve a warning to himself that he is responsible for ensuring that the services he advertises is in fact provided when he “sub contracts” it to Cape Flying Services George CC, irrespective of his business relationship with South Africa.
I have calculated that I have made at least 8 proposals to settle this matter without any counter offer from the defendant, he has colluded with Gerald Todd, concocted and continues to make serious personal and abusive attacks throughout this case that quite simply strikes at the heart of the integrity or professionalism of both the school and him. These stinging and slanderous comments will be made available to the court in due course to highlight the downright obstructive and venomous attitude. This case did not need to be pursued in the UK courts or in any court for that matter as it should have been dealt with long time ago. Both the defendant and Gerald Todd have forced me into this and I will see it through to its correct conclusion.
I will keep the forum up to date with the outcome.
Thank you,
Sandy Young
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sandy
im also worried that there are bad schools but nobody recognises that they are bad
maybe standards are so low here that they just cant see what is wrong
This is Africa and it is more African than before. Good in some ways but not for this school who are not keeping standards high level.
Aviation is a tricky business and standards have to be the same all over this world and cant drop like CFS has.
Very Good Luck to you.
im also worried that there are bad schools but nobody recognises that they are bad
maybe standards are so low here that they just cant see what is wrong
This is Africa and it is more African than before. Good in some ways but not for this school who are not keeping standards high level.
Aviation is a tricky business and standards have to be the same all over this world and cant drop like CFS has.
Very Good Luck to you.
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Guns...
I don't think this sam character and Sandy are the same bloke. Sandy sounds like a reasonable oke who took a bit of strain as opposed to sam who sounds like an uneducated child.
Spotcha around boet....
Spotcha around boet....
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Many thanks to all who have taken the time to respond to this , as i understand, an important thread.
Some of the comments have been constructive whilst some others remain quite frankly, unecessary. I am not going to get into a long speech about the case but to say it is ongoing and will be pursued to it's rightful conclusion, sooner rather than later!
I will endevour to continue to give a full and objective update of the case to the forum as i am sure that there is some interesting relevant points still to be made regarding this matter
Regards
Sandy
Some of the comments have been constructive whilst some others remain quite frankly, unecessary. I am not going to get into a long speech about the case but to say it is ongoing and will be pursued to it's rightful conclusion, sooner rather than later!
I will endevour to continue to give a full and objective update of the case to the forum as i am sure that there is some interesting relevant points still to be made regarding this matter
Regards
Sandy
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Sandy
As a fellow Mancunian I'm sure you're familiar with Coronation Street (for our colonial cousins that's a long running soap-opera set in Manchester). I'm sure Betty was referring to you when she utterred the words "more front than Blackpool!"
I cannot comment on the allegations you have made against CFS and their agent in the UK, but I think the way that you have used this forum, and in light of what CFS actually did for you in the short time you were there is actually making you look like a pretty spoilt brat.
I believe that any one who expects to complete a PPL in a month is skating on thin ice. Not that it is not possible as that's what I did mine in, but it requires excellent weather, and no maintenance issues. As an aside don't you think these aircraft we train in are quite amazing. Designed in the 50s the majority are extremely reliable despite the fact that they are regularly "abused" on a daily basis.
Given that you have less than two hours solo to over thirty dual hours I would venture that you are not the next Chuck Yaeger. There is no disgrace in this but you have to be realistic in your expectations. I would be surprised if you polished the lot off in a fortnight.
I have no interest whatsoever in CFS but I feel that this negative publicity they are getting is a bit unfair. Having been in business myself I can safely say that they must be doing something right if they have been around all the years they have. For all you sceptics out there that is something to remember.
Sandy if it is your aim to fly predominantly in the UK then might I suggest not bothering with SA. It seems that you don't have the time to take and that doing any PPL rushed is not the best way forward. Why not train in the UK and do the whole thing at your leisure at say the Lancashire Aero Club at Barton.
To reduce the cost and bear in mind the Rand Pound exchange isn't as good as it was (may be that's why you want CFS to give you so much free), you might want to consider buying a share in an aircraft. Before you think I'm mad I was offered a 1/20 share in an IFR equipped Cessna 150 for £1300. Running costs were £40 per hour. Given that you could sell your share and not incur a loss this might be the way to go. Plus should you plan to fly in the UK you wont have to waste more money getting used to the airspace and RT differences.
Regards
GT
As a fellow Mancunian I'm sure you're familiar with Coronation Street (for our colonial cousins that's a long running soap-opera set in Manchester). I'm sure Betty was referring to you when she utterred the words "more front than Blackpool!"
I cannot comment on the allegations you have made against CFS and their agent in the UK, but I think the way that you have used this forum, and in light of what CFS actually did for you in the short time you were there is actually making you look like a pretty spoilt brat.
I believe that any one who expects to complete a PPL in a month is skating on thin ice. Not that it is not possible as that's what I did mine in, but it requires excellent weather, and no maintenance issues. As an aside don't you think these aircraft we train in are quite amazing. Designed in the 50s the majority are extremely reliable despite the fact that they are regularly "abused" on a daily basis.
Given that you have less than two hours solo to over thirty dual hours I would venture that you are not the next Chuck Yaeger. There is no disgrace in this but you have to be realistic in your expectations. I would be surprised if you polished the lot off in a fortnight.
I have no interest whatsoever in CFS but I feel that this negative publicity they are getting is a bit unfair. Having been in business myself I can safely say that they must be doing something right if they have been around all the years they have. For all you sceptics out there that is something to remember.
Sandy if it is your aim to fly predominantly in the UK then might I suggest not bothering with SA. It seems that you don't have the time to take and that doing any PPL rushed is not the best way forward. Why not train in the UK and do the whole thing at your leisure at say the Lancashire Aero Club at Barton.
To reduce the cost and bear in mind the Rand Pound exchange isn't as good as it was (may be that's why you want CFS to give you so much free), you might want to consider buying a share in an aircraft. Before you think I'm mad I was offered a 1/20 share in an IFR equipped Cessna 150 for £1300. Running costs were £40 per hour. Given that you could sell your share and not incur a loss this might be the way to go. Plus should you plan to fly in the UK you wont have to waste more money getting used to the airspace and RT differences.
Regards
GT
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: South Africa
Posts: 17
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Neither Cape Flying Services or Naunton Pugh will be bullied into paying moneys we feel not due. Mr. Young has the legal system to protect him if he has a legitimate claim. Should the Court decide that we where in error in holding back the £350 ( non refundable deposit paid to Naunton Pugh ) and award it, then I could understand Mr. Young making a post.
I have attached the following for your perusal, here he acknowledges the damage his posts have done and tries to use PRUNNE as a lever to have us settle.
While his breakdown is totally wrong, and doesn’t acknowledge any expenses like books, CAA fees, Insurance, accommodation, lectures..etc. He does acknowledge that Cape Flying Services refunded him £124.78. We did this despite the fact that he booked for a whole course, and the allocated Instructor and aircraft where underutilized due to his leaving early. On numerous occasions Mr. Young has warned people not to pay up front, by all means one can do this, but don’t expect a school to commit to anything more than that which you paid. We committed to the hours Mr. Young paid for and despite his claim, worked very hard to give him 35.1 hours of flight training in 15 days……hardly a SCAM. On the Terms and Conditions form, signed by Mr. Young it states clearly that a £350.00 deposit is non refundable.
An “hour building exercise” ?? And then he post’s this :
I had no intention of posting a response to Sandy Young, however his posts have been damaging to Cape Flying Services, Naunton Pugh and myself. He claims to have tried to come to a settlement….here is an example.
Come back and fly with us ???
After the last Court case ( Jan 2004 ), he said he would settle for this :
I apologize for “hanging out our dirty washing” it’s pathetic and this is not the medium through which any legal reconciliation is likely to be met. Cape Flying Services will not refund on principal, and refuses to be blackmailed into doing so, no matter how paltry the sum.
Gerald Todd
I have attached the following for your perusal, here he acknowledges the damage his posts have done and tries to use PRUNNE as a lever to have us settle.
Mr Sandy Young :
A “posting” will be placed on the PPRUNE website under the “cape flying Services” heading indicating that all parties have agreed to settle the matter to mutual satisfaction or similar, the existing detailed problem comments can be deleted if required.
My experiences in South Africa and at Cape Flying Services still remain relatively pleasant as I have made some good friends and experienced the solo flying experience. It would be a great shame and should be unnecessary to tarnish these memories irrespective of the reasons. The contract issue and all its legalities would be discussed at a future date should this matter proceed further, if it is deemed necessary. It would also be potentially economically damaging for Cape Flying Services, George and Cape Flying Services (Europe)
In conclusion, I therefore, request that within 7 days of this letter £350.00, be paid to myself otherwise I will have no other option but to pursue this claim and seek the possibility of claiming the total refund of this course, damages, legal and other costs. No other correspondence will be entered into.
Total package for 25 hours dual, 15 hours solo and further 5 hours solo/ simulator with all inclusive package of £2895
Hours cost relative to package
25 hours dual = £1737.00 equals= £69.48/ hour
15 hours solo = £ 868.50 equals= £57.90/ hour
5 hours solo/ simulator= £ 289.50 equals=£57.90/ hour
Hours used
33.5 hours dual @ £69.48/ hour = £2327.58
1.6 hours solo @ £57.90/ hour = £ 92.64
total = £2420.22
Package price inclusive total = £2895.00
Difference total= £ 474.78
Paid by Cape Flying Services (SA Rand cheque @ R12/£1= R 1497.36) = £124.78
Balance owed to AW YOUNG = = £350.00
A “posting” will be placed on the PPRUNE website under the “cape flying Services” heading indicating that all parties have agreed to settle the matter to mutual satisfaction or similar, the existing detailed problem comments can be deleted if required.
My experiences in South Africa and at Cape Flying Services still remain relatively pleasant as I have made some good friends and experienced the solo flying experience. It would be a great shame and should be unnecessary to tarnish these memories irrespective of the reasons. The contract issue and all its legalities would be discussed at a future date should this matter proceed further, if it is deemed necessary. It would also be potentially economically damaging for Cape Flying Services, George and Cape Flying Services (Europe)
In conclusion, I therefore, request that within 7 days of this letter £350.00, be paid to myself otherwise I will have no other option but to pursue this claim and seek the possibility of claiming the total refund of this course, damages, legal and other costs. No other correspondence will be entered into.
Total package for 25 hours dual, 15 hours solo and further 5 hours solo/ simulator with all inclusive package of £2895
Hours cost relative to package
25 hours dual = £1737.00 equals= £69.48/ hour
15 hours solo = £ 868.50 equals= £57.90/ hour
5 hours solo/ simulator= £ 289.50 equals=£57.90/ hour
Hours used
33.5 hours dual @ £69.48/ hour = £2327.58
1.6 hours solo @ £57.90/ hour = £ 92.64
total = £2420.22
Package price inclusive total = £2895.00
Difference total= £ 474.78
Paid by Cape Flying Services (SA Rand cheque @ R12/£1= R 1497.36) = £124.78
Balance owed to AW YOUNG = = £350.00
While his breakdown is totally wrong, and doesn’t acknowledge any expenses like books, CAA fees, Insurance, accommodation, lectures..etc. He does acknowledge that Cape Flying Services refunded him £124.78. We did this despite the fact that he booked for a whole course, and the allocated Instructor and aircraft where underutilized due to his leaving early. On numerous occasions Mr. Young has warned people not to pay up front, by all means one can do this, but don’t expect a school to commit to anything more than that which you paid. We committed to the hours Mr. Young paid for and despite his claim, worked very hard to give him 35.1 hours of flight training in 15 days……hardly a SCAM. On the Terms and Conditions form, signed by Mr. Young it states clearly that a £350.00 deposit is non refundable.
Mr Sandy Young :
My objectives are two fold, firstly, warning about this school and hopefully this is the platform to air these concerns, people to be careful when considering it for flight training and secondly if people are prepared to tell their "first hand" account of their story via email to me maybe we can stop this "burning" of well earned hard cash by people with an interest in furthering their aviation career, lets face it I just got burned for nearly £5000.00(3 weeks trip to South Africa and "training"), understanding and reasonable people would not be very happy about that.
The actual flying instruction at the school was carried out by dedicated, loyal and hardworking professional instructors.
I agree, 36 hours flying time from any school in 15 days is good, but only, as an hour building exercise. I was and available to fly in George for almost 18 days not for an “hour building exercise” but as a structured AND personal course to complete the PPL as was stated in the contract with CFS (Europe), from scratch that is Mr. Pugh. This course was for at least 45 hours flying time over my period at CFS in George to complete the PPL.
My objectives are two fold, firstly, warning about this school and hopefully this is the platform to air these concerns, people to be careful when considering it for flight training and secondly if people are prepared to tell their "first hand" account of their story via email to me maybe we can stop this "burning" of well earned hard cash by people with an interest in furthering their aviation career, lets face it I just got burned for nearly £5000.00(3 weeks trip to South Africa and "training"), understanding and reasonable people would not be very happy about that.
The actual flying instruction at the school was carried out by dedicated, loyal and hardworking professional instructors.
I agree, 36 hours flying time from any school in 15 days is good, but only, as an hour building exercise. I was and available to fly in George for almost 18 days not for an “hour building exercise” but as a structured AND personal course to complete the PPL as was stated in the contract with CFS (Europe), from scratch that is Mr. Pugh. This course was for at least 45 hours flying time over my period at CFS in George to complete the PPL.
An “hour building exercise” ?? And then he post’s this :
Mr Sandy Young :
Give this Guy a Job !, he is worth it !
Dean was my instructor in George. Despite my many problems with the school and its UK based agent, I can certainly recommend Dean as a 1st class instructor.
He gets on well with his students, professional, has a great sense of humour (really, I know this is unusual for an instructor !), very experienced and above all gets the job done !!
He is certainly worth an interview with a first class company and no doubt will be a great asset to YOU !!!
Any personal references are welcomed, just PM or email me
Regards
sandy Young
Give this Guy a Job !, he is worth it !
Dean was my instructor in George. Despite my many problems with the school and its UK based agent, I can certainly recommend Dean as a 1st class instructor.
He gets on well with his students, professional, has a great sense of humour (really, I know this is unusual for an instructor !), very experienced and above all gets the job done !!
He is certainly worth an interview with a first class company and no doubt will be a great asset to YOU !!!
Any personal references are welcomed, just PM or email me
Regards
sandy Young
I had no intention of posting a response to Sandy Young, however his posts have been damaging to Cape Flying Services, Naunton Pugh and myself. He claims to have tried to come to a settlement….here is an example.
Mr Sandy Young :
Dear Sirs
You are no doubt aware of the pending hearing to issue summary Judgment, in January 2004.
It is my intention to take this matter “all the way” due to the failed response to my many issues, however, it has always been an objective to reach some kind of resolution, if possible, at some stage, to avoid costly and time consuming court action. There is only one side of the parties willing to make any kind of proposal to resolve the problem and this is rather sad taking all the circumstances into consideration, I have already submitted a proposal to Naunton that was rejected.
Even at this late stage in the proceedings my door is open to a solution and I truly believe that a there is surely a workable solution to the benefit of all parties and this email is sent not as a “wind up” but perhaps an opportunity for us all to finally move on from this.
Bearing in mind that my student SA PPL expires in 6th April 2004, have 3 exams i.e. Nav, Met and Airframes to complete with around 15- 17 flying hours being required to finally complete the SA PPL. I would anticipate that the course could be completed in around 10 working days i.e. Monday to Friday or at worst 14 days if you include the weekends. To complete the SA PPL has always been my objective when considering the trip in the first place to South Africa back in April 2003.
My proposal to resolve the issue is that you provide the following:
1. Return airline trip from Manchester to George with an acceptable route during perhaps Feb/ March 2004
2. Bed, breakfast an evening meal accommodation at an acceptable location for around 14 nights in George.
3. No more than 17 hours flying time, irrespective of solo or dual with perhaps JLF and all other costs associated with flying the aircraft for the purposes of completing the course any other flying hours required will be paid for by me at an agreed rate.
4. Providing any ground school or any other assistance that is normally required to assist me in completing the course including transport to the airfield and town as appropriate.
5. Completing the 3 remaining exams: Nav. Met and Airframes
6. £300 or R3000 cash to cover other costs that may occur during the trip payable upon acceptance.
The acceptance of this proposal and its agreed implementation will end all legal proceedings and action against you. Strange as it may sound I do not harbour any resentful feelings about returning to George, I will be there to do a job by completing the course and will assure you that this is my only intention.
I would be grateful for your comments as soon as possible.
Yours faithfully
Sandy Young
Dear Sirs
You are no doubt aware of the pending hearing to issue summary Judgment, in January 2004.
It is my intention to take this matter “all the way” due to the failed response to my many issues, however, it has always been an objective to reach some kind of resolution, if possible, at some stage, to avoid costly and time consuming court action. There is only one side of the parties willing to make any kind of proposal to resolve the problem and this is rather sad taking all the circumstances into consideration, I have already submitted a proposal to Naunton that was rejected.
Even at this late stage in the proceedings my door is open to a solution and I truly believe that a there is surely a workable solution to the benefit of all parties and this email is sent not as a “wind up” but perhaps an opportunity for us all to finally move on from this.
Bearing in mind that my student SA PPL expires in 6th April 2004, have 3 exams i.e. Nav, Met and Airframes to complete with around 15- 17 flying hours being required to finally complete the SA PPL. I would anticipate that the course could be completed in around 10 working days i.e. Monday to Friday or at worst 14 days if you include the weekends. To complete the SA PPL has always been my objective when considering the trip in the first place to South Africa back in April 2003.
My proposal to resolve the issue is that you provide the following:
1. Return airline trip from Manchester to George with an acceptable route during perhaps Feb/ March 2004
2. Bed, breakfast an evening meal accommodation at an acceptable location for around 14 nights in George.
3. No more than 17 hours flying time, irrespective of solo or dual with perhaps JLF and all other costs associated with flying the aircraft for the purposes of completing the course any other flying hours required will be paid for by me at an agreed rate.
4. Providing any ground school or any other assistance that is normally required to assist me in completing the course including transport to the airfield and town as appropriate.
5. Completing the 3 remaining exams: Nav. Met and Airframes
6. £300 or R3000 cash to cover other costs that may occur during the trip payable upon acceptance.
The acceptance of this proposal and its agreed implementation will end all legal proceedings and action against you. Strange as it may sound I do not harbour any resentful feelings about returning to George, I will be there to do a job by completing the course and will assure you that this is my only intention.
I would be grateful for your comments as soon as possible.
Yours faithfully
Sandy Young
Come back and fly with us ???
After the last Court case ( Jan 2004 ), he said he would settle for this :
Mr Sandy Young :
The FINANCIAL proposal is NOT NEGOTIABLE AND FINAL quite simply-
• The full refund of £350 for flying hours not taken, as indicated in the diagram shown on item 4.
• The full refund of £100 overcharge as stated on the invoice.
• The full refund of £180 costs incurred for court proceedings and action taken within the UK.
Total: £630
The FINANCIAL proposal is NOT NEGOTIABLE AND FINAL quite simply-
• The full refund of £350 for flying hours not taken, as indicated in the diagram shown on item 4.
• The full refund of £100 overcharge as stated on the invoice.
• The full refund of £180 costs incurred for court proceedings and action taken within the UK.
Total: £630
I apologize for “hanging out our dirty washing” it’s pathetic and this is not the medium through which any legal reconciliation is likely to be met. Cape Flying Services will not refund on principal, and refuses to be blackmailed into doing so, no matter how paltry the sum.
Gerald Todd