Cape Flying Services...south Africa
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prospector and blues africa,
I'm writing because I'm sure your posts have produced a lot of nodding heads at your apparently wise words. I'm also stepping up to bat because of what could appear to be the instinctive defence of a part of South African aviation.
Folks from abroad wanting to learn can only get information from magazines and websites. Have a look at what they are reading. The marketing spin is all they have to go on. They don't know any wise, experienced people, they don't even know PPRuNe exists or the information they can get here.
All the wise words don't mean a thing if you criticise the inexperienced customer but don't say a word about the crap put out by the schools and agents.
I think your respect for schools in general is undeserved. They are the ones knowingly building unrealistic expectations amongst foreign sales prospects. The training schools in Florida and now SA are getting a desperate reputation for their marketing claims, hidden costs and use of commission based agents.
Eventually, and I actually mean now, good schools end up suffering just as much as the bad ones. This will go on for as long as experienced pilots never challenge the honesty and integrity of the marketing by schools. You guys are the problem for accepting the claims of 3 week courses from a position of knowledge, just shrugging your shoulders and crying caveat emptor to the naive and enthusiastic.
You don't put up with bull**** from GA operators and airlines because it effects you or your colleagues - you hammer them with the reality. However, not one word ever from an African about the schools specious claims, hidden charges and unrealistic suggestions.
When every ad for non UK schools filling the back of the magazines competes with the one next to it by making totally unrealistic claims it is the schools' problem and not the punters. Any other argument is fatuous. You in SA are compounding the problem by supporting schools. Read their marketing material before the kneejerk defence of South African schools.
Rob Lloyd
I'm writing because I'm sure your posts have produced a lot of nodding heads at your apparently wise words. I'm also stepping up to bat because of what could appear to be the instinctive defence of a part of South African aviation.
Folks from abroad wanting to learn can only get information from magazines and websites. Have a look at what they are reading. The marketing spin is all they have to go on. They don't know any wise, experienced people, they don't even know PPRuNe exists or the information they can get here.
All the wise words don't mean a thing if you criticise the inexperienced customer but don't say a word about the crap put out by the schools and agents.
I think your respect for schools in general is undeserved. They are the ones knowingly building unrealistic expectations amongst foreign sales prospects. The training schools in Florida and now SA are getting a desperate reputation for their marketing claims, hidden costs and use of commission based agents.
Eventually, and I actually mean now, good schools end up suffering just as much as the bad ones. This will go on for as long as experienced pilots never challenge the honesty and integrity of the marketing by schools. You guys are the problem for accepting the claims of 3 week courses from a position of knowledge, just shrugging your shoulders and crying caveat emptor to the naive and enthusiastic.
You don't put up with bull**** from GA operators and airlines because it effects you or your colleagues - you hammer them with the reality. However, not one word ever from an African about the schools specious claims, hidden charges and unrealistic suggestions.
When every ad for non UK schools filling the back of the magazines competes with the one next to it by making totally unrealistic claims it is the schools' problem and not the punters. Any other argument is fatuous. You in SA are compounding the problem by supporting schools. Read their marketing material before the kneejerk defence of South African schools.
Rob Lloyd
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Sorry PPRuNe Towers, but I dont see anything in my post backing the schools, what I see is a person who is obviously well educated, has the time to shop around and who still gets sucked in.
If he was a youngster with little world experience then I would perhaps feel that your admonition carried some weight.
Prospector
If he was a youngster with little world experience then I would perhaps feel that your admonition carried some weight.
Prospector
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I agree that any school that guaranties any licence in any period of time should be avoided. Cape Flying Services does not guarantee a licence and our agent is a person of integrity who holds a position in the aviation world that cannot afford to be compromised by misrepresentation. Sandy Young signed the following “Terms and Conditions” form, before leaving the UK. It’s not long, in English and exactly the same sized print:
I, the undersigned, hereby accept this quotation, subject to these terms and conditions. Deposit(s) are enclosed.
The Student :
1. Will present himself/herself for lectures and flight training at all reasonable times.
2. Will obey all statutory and local flying rules and conduct himself/herself in the best traditions of aviation.
3. Understands that every effort will be made to complete training on time, but Cape Flying Services George CC will not be held responsible for circumstance causing delays beyond their control
4. Agrees that in the event of the Student terminating the training prematurely or in the event of the agreement being cancelled by Cape Flying Services, George CC by reason of misconduct or breach of agreement by the student, any refunds will be at the sole discretion of Cape Flying Services, George CC
5. Understands that while Cape Flying Services George CC cannot guarantee that the Student will pass the written exams and flight tests, the Student will be given every professional assistance to achieve these goals.
6. Deposit(s) are non-refundable except in a case of a Student being found medically unfit.
No variation of this agreement will be binding upon the Student or Cape Flying Services, George CC unless reduced in writing and signed by both parties
If you read this thread in full, it’s obvious that we did our very best to try and service our side of the contract. Even then and despite the fact that Mr Young left early and declined to fly with the booked aircraft and Instructor, we refunded him everything he asked for except the non refundable deposit.
We are not a flying club, we run flying courses from PPL to Commercial. The student makes a booking and we commit the aircraft and staff to service it. We have trained many, hundreds of students to Private Pilot standard inside four weeks. We probably would have managed to complete Sandy Young in four weeks, if given the chance……but then there is no guarantee.
Gerald Todd
I, the undersigned, hereby accept this quotation, subject to these terms and conditions. Deposit(s) are enclosed.
The Student :
1. Will present himself/herself for lectures and flight training at all reasonable times.
2. Will obey all statutory and local flying rules and conduct himself/herself in the best traditions of aviation.
3. Understands that every effort will be made to complete training on time, but Cape Flying Services George CC will not be held responsible for circumstance causing delays beyond their control
4. Agrees that in the event of the Student terminating the training prematurely or in the event of the agreement being cancelled by Cape Flying Services, George CC by reason of misconduct or breach of agreement by the student, any refunds will be at the sole discretion of Cape Flying Services, George CC
5. Understands that while Cape Flying Services George CC cannot guarantee that the Student will pass the written exams and flight tests, the Student will be given every professional assistance to achieve these goals.
6. Deposit(s) are non-refundable except in a case of a Student being found medically unfit.
No variation of this agreement will be binding upon the Student or Cape Flying Services, George CC unless reduced in writing and signed by both parties
If you read this thread in full, it’s obvious that we did our very best to try and service our side of the contract. Even then and despite the fact that Mr Young left early and declined to fly with the booked aircraft and Instructor, we refunded him everything he asked for except the non refundable deposit.
We are not a flying club, we run flying courses from PPL to Commercial. The student makes a booking and we commit the aircraft and staff to service it. We have trained many, hundreds of students to Private Pilot standard inside four weeks. We probably would have managed to complete Sandy Young in four weeks, if given the chance……but then there is no guarantee.
Gerald Todd
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PPrune Towers,
In my mail I say that 3 weeks is too short! Even 4 weeks sounds somewhat unrealisticly short for older than 25 to learn necessary skills.
I have no idea who sold the course for Mr Young with an idea that he can complete PPL even in shorter time. Maybe possible for a topgun but not for the every man from the street.
As I said in my posting.
What comes for my comments after I read his demans I still stand behind them.
Blues
In my mail I say that 3 weeks is too short! Even 4 weeks sounds somewhat unrealisticly short for older than 25 to learn necessary skills.
I have no idea who sold the course for Mr Young with an idea that he can complete PPL even in shorter time. Maybe possible for a topgun but not for the every man from the street.
As I said in my posting.
What comes for my comments after I read his demans I still stand behind them.
Blues
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Gerold,
I'm having a go at the pro's letting schools in SA away with an easy ride - something they won't allow any other aspect of African aviation get away with.
However, if you want to quote stuff at me let's have a look at these aspects of your marketing.
"Cape Flying Services initiated the three week Private Pilot License course in South Africa"
That's from the very first page of your website - stop playing with the word guaranteed. Stop dancing around with, 'less than 4 weeks.' That's what the web sites fires straight off with. Three Weeks No if's no buts it says three weeks on the tin.
Next: What type and class of medical are people arriving back in the UK with? Your site glosses over that and we are presently having serious problems with folks arriving back in the UK with class 3 medicals and an ICAO licence. This is not kosher so why isn't your marketing material clear?
RT exam - what exactly are potential customers getting and is it usable in JAA countries?
The licence itself - what is it? Why doesn't it make it clear what the licence is in international law? The pros here have enough troubles with international licences, equivalancies and validations - why can't you tell punters what their licences are in the world generally and within the JAA context particularly? You wouldn't have those foreign based agents if you weren't aiming at foreign customers would you? If you have a UK agent you are selling to the UK. Why no information on what the licence is and what it can be used for in the UK and whether it can be used in Europe or whether it can be used to gain further ratings at home?
Or a JAA CPL.
Or an ATPL.
Or even an Instrument Rating because of our lousy wx.
Pricing? Why no straightforward pricing information - in fact no pricing information at all - not one whit. Is this to ensure force feeding them through the foreign, commission based agents and the territory they cover? In the English speaking world with cheap international calling, the internet and faxes what function do such agents serve? This information is simple, straightforward and basic - surely it is wasting the valuable time of your agents by not having the information on your website. Or is that the most important part of their sales pitch???
Conclusion - if you indeed are amongst the very best in SA but a punter can't get a price, the type of medical they get, the validity of the RT licence they receive, the type of PPL and its limitations in Europe from your marketing what hope is there?
Still, at least they know from the first page they can do a PPL in 3 weeks.
Sir, you and your agent doth protest too much. Course duration, medical, licence, RT licence and pricing - vaque, inaccurate or impossible to determine from your prime marketing material.
Sandy may not be everyone's cup of tea but sometimes it takes a pedantic and obstinate pain in the arse to get a bit of clarity in the seedy world of training because you are all at it.
Here's a marketing first - tell people the truth. Tell them the truth. We got 70+ thousand signed up and just as many independent readers by puncturing the crap. Why don't you take the time to match your personal reputation with what you put on your internet site and advertising. You might find you join the select superschools in the UK and the States whose advertising need only consist of a current phone number. Year after year, whatever the state of the market or exchange rate.
Rob Lloyd
I'm having a go at the pro's letting schools in SA away with an easy ride - something they won't allow any other aspect of African aviation get away with.
However, if you want to quote stuff at me let's have a look at these aspects of your marketing.
"Cape Flying Services initiated the three week Private Pilot License course in South Africa"
That's from the very first page of your website - stop playing with the word guaranteed. Stop dancing around with, 'less than 4 weeks.' That's what the web sites fires straight off with. Three Weeks No if's no buts it says three weeks on the tin.
Next: What type and class of medical are people arriving back in the UK with? Your site glosses over that and we are presently having serious problems with folks arriving back in the UK with class 3 medicals and an ICAO licence. This is not kosher so why isn't your marketing material clear?
RT exam - what exactly are potential customers getting and is it usable in JAA countries?
The licence itself - what is it? Why doesn't it make it clear what the licence is in international law? The pros here have enough troubles with international licences, equivalancies and validations - why can't you tell punters what their licences are in the world generally and within the JAA context particularly? You wouldn't have those foreign based agents if you weren't aiming at foreign customers would you? If you have a UK agent you are selling to the UK. Why no information on what the licence is and what it can be used for in the UK and whether it can be used in Europe or whether it can be used to gain further ratings at home?
Or a JAA CPL.
Or an ATPL.
Or even an Instrument Rating because of our lousy wx.
Pricing? Why no straightforward pricing information - in fact no pricing information at all - not one whit. Is this to ensure force feeding them through the foreign, commission based agents and the territory they cover? In the English speaking world with cheap international calling, the internet and faxes what function do such agents serve? This information is simple, straightforward and basic - surely it is wasting the valuable time of your agents by not having the information on your website. Or is that the most important part of their sales pitch???
Conclusion - if you indeed are amongst the very best in SA but a punter can't get a price, the type of medical they get, the validity of the RT licence they receive, the type of PPL and its limitations in Europe from your marketing what hope is there?
Still, at least they know from the first page they can do a PPL in 3 weeks.
Sir, you and your agent doth protest too much. Course duration, medical, licence, RT licence and pricing - vaque, inaccurate or impossible to determine from your prime marketing material.
Sandy may not be everyone's cup of tea but sometimes it takes a pedantic and obstinate pain in the arse to get a bit of clarity in the seedy world of training because you are all at it.
Here's a marketing first - tell people the truth. Tell them the truth. We got 70+ thousand signed up and just as many independent readers by puncturing the crap. Why don't you take the time to match your personal reputation with what you put on your internet site and advertising. You might find you join the select superschools in the UK and the States whose advertising need only consist of a current phone number. Year after year, whatever the state of the market or exchange rate.
Rob Lloyd
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Well, I haven't seen CFS's advertisement. It is totally unrealistic to market a PPL course for 3 weeks. I agree with you that all marketing MUST be based for the facts and reality. Most countries you do need longer than that for the driving licence...
Secondly I agree that full information of licence validity and acceptance by authorities like JAA must be clearly printed out as well as total cost of such training.
I am sure that "normal marketing" can be very misleading. Same time I am surprised if adult individuals are buying in for such dream. One should obviously get more information from real requirements and expenses involved and not only to look cheapest possible deal!
Blues
PS. PPrune Tower, thanks for the eye opening...
Secondly I agree that full information of licence validity and acceptance by authorities like JAA must be clearly printed out as well as total cost of such training.
I am sure that "normal marketing" can be very misleading. Same time I am surprised if adult individuals are buying in for such dream. One should obviously get more information from real requirements and expenses involved and not only to look cheapest possible deal!
Blues
PS. PPrune Tower, thanks for the eye opening...
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Rob
The reason for posting our Terms and Conditions was to show that Sandy Young was not guaranteed a licence, however we did undertake to do our best to get him done within three to four weeks. Even Sandy Young, a below average student, having been with us and knowing that he needed longer than the norm, was confident that he could achieve 17 hours “in around 10 working days i.e. Monday to Friday or at worst 14 days”… his words, not mine. We try and average two hours a day, and the students are at the school from 8am to 5pm everyday except Saturday afternoons and Sundays, if we have had a poor week, we work on Sundays to.
The problems with the South African Medical and the other issues you have mentioned regarding the licence we offer, I will take up with Naunton Pugh. He is at the leading edge of British flight training and has a sound knowledge of what is required and what not. No one, not one student has come back to me with any of the problems you mention. I realize that this doesn’t necessarily mean they are not there, however I have students flying in the UK with nothing more than a check ride after completing with us.
I will take a look at our web site, consider your suggestions, and if I feel that our clients would be better served by including any of the information you mention, it will be adjusted.
Gerald Todd
The reason for posting our Terms and Conditions was to show that Sandy Young was not guaranteed a licence, however we did undertake to do our best to get him done within three to four weeks. Even Sandy Young, a below average student, having been with us and knowing that he needed longer than the norm, was confident that he could achieve 17 hours “in around 10 working days i.e. Monday to Friday or at worst 14 days”… his words, not mine. We try and average two hours a day, and the students are at the school from 8am to 5pm everyday except Saturday afternoons and Sundays, if we have had a poor week, we work on Sundays to.
The problems with the South African Medical and the other issues you have mentioned regarding the licence we offer, I will take up with Naunton Pugh. He is at the leading edge of British flight training and has a sound knowledge of what is required and what not. No one, not one student has come back to me with any of the problems you mention. I realize that this doesn’t necessarily mean they are not there, however I have students flying in the UK with nothing more than a check ride after completing with us.
I will take a look at our web site, consider your suggestions, and if I feel that our clients would be better served by including any of the information you mention, it will be adjusted.
Gerald Todd
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I am going to go even further and say that we have trained many pilots within that period, with some days of IMC. Imagine that, if an instructor gets a dedicated student who does have some sort of talent, he or she can complete in three weeks... Notwithstanding that, even more of them complete in four weeks, which is half the time that many would complete their course in. So why would something that we have done time and time again, with many pilots (up to and including the time of my affiliation) not be advertised on the main marketing medium, the website? Should it be that just because some people cannot complete in such time periods due to lack of talent and or dedication it should not be advertised? It is truely incredible that such information is being falsified in this medium by people who have no clue what we are about and have had no association with the flying school whatsoever. As a matter of fact, the CFI is so confident in his organisation that he even published on this site a telephone number that is accessed by our clientele, so it could be heard from the students themselves, yet this opportunity was surpassed.
There you have it, from one who read all the marketing and had the time of my life.
Here's a marketing first - tell people the truth. Tell them the truth.
There you have it, from one who read all the marketing and had the time of my life.
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Stephen,
Missing the point or attempted misdirection?
The pros here know all about licence, medical validity and rating issues as they move around the world.
They can look at the site themselves.
It specifically targets foriegn trainees. Trainees from Jar/Easa countries - err, and Nepal..... Single rules coverage for 400 million potential customers rather than SA's slightly smaller population.
It specifically avoids, ducks and glosses over every single issue facing a pilot moving between countries.
It avoids any mention of price, medical certificate standards and the renewal of the medical to maintain an SA licence from within another country.
It ignores validity of ratings, licence coverage, future ratings and extension of that licence in another country. Renewal and maintaining the validity of that licence to fly while on another continent is also studiously ignored on this site and those of other schools in SA.
It avoids the issues of what registration/flag a PPL can fly within their own country and differences/problems faced if they want to fly an aircraft into another neigbouring country.
In the UK context the most valuable safety progression for most PPL's is a basic intrument flying qualification. Why doesn't the website make clear whether this is a future possibility for a pilot training at Cape? Is a pilot actually prevented from gaining further safety based ratings to combat our weather?
This is an international site for pilots worldwide.
We are discussing a school specifically targeting Euro clients as do many others in SA.
The professional pilots here know exactly what I'm talking about - it's their bread and butter, each of them knowing someone who made a decision regarding licencing that blew up, very expensively, in their faces.
Marketing for South African schools is reliant on the stupid and naive.
Simple question Stephen - would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?
Yeah, I know. It must be so satisfying knowing you got the basic qualification for a lifelong hobby or even profession in three weeks. Still, as long as we've got the important stuff nailed down hey Stephen?
Regards
Rob Lloyd
Missing the point or attempted misdirection?
The pros here know all about licence, medical validity and rating issues as they move around the world.
They can look at the site themselves.
It specifically targets foriegn trainees. Trainees from Jar/Easa countries - err, and Nepal..... Single rules coverage for 400 million potential customers rather than SA's slightly smaller population.
It specifically avoids, ducks and glosses over every single issue facing a pilot moving between countries.
It avoids any mention of price, medical certificate standards and the renewal of the medical to maintain an SA licence from within another country.
It ignores validity of ratings, licence coverage, future ratings and extension of that licence in another country. Renewal and maintaining the validity of that licence to fly while on another continent is also studiously ignored on this site and those of other schools in SA.
It avoids the issues of what registration/flag a PPL can fly within their own country and differences/problems faced if they want to fly an aircraft into another neigbouring country.
In the UK context the most valuable safety progression for most PPL's is a basic intrument flying qualification. Why doesn't the website make clear whether this is a future possibility for a pilot training at Cape? Is a pilot actually prevented from gaining further safety based ratings to combat our weather?
This is an international site for pilots worldwide.
We are discussing a school specifically targeting Euro clients as do many others in SA.
The professional pilots here know exactly what I'm talking about - it's their bread and butter, each of them knowing someone who made a decision regarding licencing that blew up, very expensively, in their faces.
Marketing for South African schools is reliant on the stupid and naive.
Simple question Stephen - would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?
Yeah, I know. It must be so satisfying knowing you got the basic qualification for a lifelong hobby or even profession in three weeks. Still, as long as we've got the important stuff nailed down hey Stephen?
Regards
Rob Lloyd
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Many thanks to all for the responses, including "Big G"
Let me make it quite clear from the outset, as I have always done, that this thread is NOT intended at Mr Todd, Cape Flying Services George or anyone associated with it in South Africa because the main point all along, correctly and rightly argued and indeed NOW assertained by a UK court is that Mr Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services ( Europe) is the ONLY person responsible for any contract that exists for the PPL course attended because he and I enterered into an agreement, notwithstanding, all the information was provided SOLELY by him in his own company headed literature, for him to provide certain services or goods, this, despite stubborn and unwarranted defence from Mr Pugh and indeed Mr Todd have defended until the "cows have come home", that South Africa is the only provider of the services or and goods.
Well, we can argue this point alone, but I will leave it for another day ( I promise) the assertion and perception is quite different from what is being explained within this thread.
To date, despite all the comments in this thread, let me remind you that the court case does not solely rest on the fact that despite it being well advertised by the "CFS Group" that a PPL can be obtiained within 3 weeks, this is not the case.
This is fundemental and vitally important for all readers as this is, as the other side may want you to believe, the main bone of contention ,as, my integrity, capabilities and reputation are in question. The spin from the other side is absolutely frightening and in all honesty they know the simple facts of this case, let me remind you just some of them, without predjudice, flying hours not taken but paid, accomodation not as described, ground school not as advertised, £100 overcharge on the invoice etc etc.
The other side want you to argue the case on "selective information" being made available within the public domain but as correctly and without bias the UK court system has now agreed that any failure or fault, irrespective, is and can now be handled within the UK, Readers, we dont have long to wait to know the outcome.
Interestingly and with deep concern, there are numerous questions remaining unanswered and not that I am prepared to discuss at this stage, more importantly, irrespective of the final result, indeed, I will post the result and explanation on this thread, with a full and frank explanation and if needed to be, post and unreserved apology to all concerned.
I will not bow to any kind of pressure to withdraw this thread because I believe that the thread is only going to be good for all concerned within the CFS flag, South African aviation and all potential aviation students visiting (the great and beautiful) country of South Africa, correctly pointed out to us by "G"
Regards
Sandy Young
Let me make it quite clear from the outset, as I have always done, that this thread is NOT intended at Mr Todd, Cape Flying Services George or anyone associated with it in South Africa because the main point all along, correctly and rightly argued and indeed NOW assertained by a UK court is that Mr Naunton Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services ( Europe) is the ONLY person responsible for any contract that exists for the PPL course attended because he and I enterered into an agreement, notwithstanding, all the information was provided SOLELY by him in his own company headed literature, for him to provide certain services or goods, this, despite stubborn and unwarranted defence from Mr Pugh and indeed Mr Todd have defended until the "cows have come home", that South Africa is the only provider of the services or and goods.
Well, we can argue this point alone, but I will leave it for another day ( I promise) the assertion and perception is quite different from what is being explained within this thread.
To date, despite all the comments in this thread, let me remind you that the court case does not solely rest on the fact that despite it being well advertised by the "CFS Group" that a PPL can be obtiained within 3 weeks, this is not the case.
This is fundemental and vitally important for all readers as this is, as the other side may want you to believe, the main bone of contention ,as, my integrity, capabilities and reputation are in question. The spin from the other side is absolutely frightening and in all honesty they know the simple facts of this case, let me remind you just some of them, without predjudice, flying hours not taken but paid, accomodation not as described, ground school not as advertised, £100 overcharge on the invoice etc etc.
The other side want you to argue the case on "selective information" being made available within the public domain but as correctly and without bias the UK court system has now agreed that any failure or fault, irrespective, is and can now be handled within the UK, Readers, we dont have long to wait to know the outcome.
Interestingly and with deep concern, there are numerous questions remaining unanswered and not that I am prepared to discuss at this stage, more importantly, irrespective of the final result, indeed, I will post the result and explanation on this thread, with a full and frank explanation and if needed to be, post and unreserved apology to all concerned.
I will not bow to any kind of pressure to withdraw this thread because I believe that the thread is only going to be good for all concerned within the CFS flag, South African aviation and all potential aviation students visiting (the great and beautiful) country of South Africa, correctly pointed out to us by "G"
Regards
Sandy Young
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Stephen,
What I write isn't in itself significant. However, I have worked with pilots from SA and Zim for many years. The one thing you can never claim about them is shyness - holding back with their opinions. Compared to Brits they are brutally frank.
Therefore what is significant since I stepped in on this thread is the silence from the professional aviators and, even more importantly, the complete lack of rebutal from the entire SA training industry.
Am I making myself clear? - they haven't stepped up and said I'm spouting bollocks.
I'm guessing that they are hoping I'll simply go away and won't get around to mentioning the issue of type ratings. A foreigner, let's say trained on a Cessna 152, being sent home with an SA licence and having absolutely no idea that they have to be examined by an SA trained and qualified instructor/examiner before they can fly a 150, a Cherokee, a 172 or any other simple light aircraft in their own country. Extremely difficult in the UK and downright impossible in the majority of JAA countries. Additionally, the fact, and it is a fact, that they are not allowed to fly a British aircraft outside the UK with an SA licence seems to have completely bypassed the oxygen of publicity - or your schools' websites and adverts.
Hourbuilding? Couldn't recommend SA highly enough - absolutely outstanding and makes flogging around the skies of Forida clearly abject, mind numbing nonsense. Formal training courses - major problems though. The schools that face up and tell the truth are going to be the winners.
Therefore, I really would appreciate anyone in SA answering the question I posed Stephen - I mean it. I have made a series of allegations and, at the moment, your whole training industry are whistling, shuffling and staring at their shoes. so here it is again:
"Would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?"
Regards to all,
rob
What I write isn't in itself significant. However, I have worked with pilots from SA and Zim for many years. The one thing you can never claim about them is shyness - holding back with their opinions. Compared to Brits they are brutally frank.
Therefore what is significant since I stepped in on this thread is the silence from the professional aviators and, even more importantly, the complete lack of rebutal from the entire SA training industry.
Am I making myself clear? - they haven't stepped up and said I'm spouting bollocks.
I'm guessing that they are hoping I'll simply go away and won't get around to mentioning the issue of type ratings. A foreigner, let's say trained on a Cessna 152, being sent home with an SA licence and having absolutely no idea that they have to be examined by an SA trained and qualified instructor/examiner before they can fly a 150, a Cherokee, a 172 or any other simple light aircraft in their own country. Extremely difficult in the UK and downright impossible in the majority of JAA countries. Additionally, the fact, and it is a fact, that they are not allowed to fly a British aircraft outside the UK with an SA licence seems to have completely bypassed the oxygen of publicity - or your schools' websites and adverts.
Hourbuilding? Couldn't recommend SA highly enough - absolutely outstanding and makes flogging around the skies of Forida clearly abject, mind numbing nonsense. Formal training courses - major problems though. The schools that face up and tell the truth are going to be the winners.
Therefore, I really would appreciate anyone in SA answering the question I posed Stephen - I mean it. I have made a series of allegations and, at the moment, your whole training industry are whistling, shuffling and staring at their shoes. so here it is again:
"Would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?"
Regards to all,
rob
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Hi Guys,
Just to make it clear, I've only followed the last page of this thread, but I'm rather keen to reply to Rob's question. I have never had any dealings with Cape Flying Services, so no comment there.
However, when I decided I wanted to do this flying thing as my career, we shopped around. Shopping around is what everybody does in our industry.
When last did you hear a passenger say ... "I picked XXX Airline because they have a fantstic safety record?!?!" Unless your company is paying or your one of the mega wealthy, then you fly on price.
Getting back to the point, it never crossed our minds to go to another country, purely because it was much more expensive.
Why then do the European guys want to train in South Africa? Is it price based or because we have such a fantastic history of training?
If you can't get simple answers about your training from the flight school, or licence details from your local CAA, then find another school ... maybe one nearer home.
S.
Just to make it clear, I've only followed the last page of this thread, but I'm rather keen to reply to Rob's question. I have never had any dealings with Cape Flying Services, so no comment there.
However, when I decided I wanted to do this flying thing as my career, we shopped around. Shopping around is what everybody does in our industry.
When last did you hear a passenger say ... "I picked XXX Airline because they have a fantstic safety record?!?!" Unless your company is paying or your one of the mega wealthy, then you fly on price.
Getting back to the point, it never crossed our minds to go to another country, purely because it was much more expensive.
Why then do the European guys want to train in South Africa? Is it price based or because we have such a fantastic history of training?
If you can't get simple answers about your training from the flight school, or licence details from your local CAA, then find another school ... maybe one nearer home.
S.
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3 week course
It seems that a lot of people are having a problem with this three week course. All I can say is that not only is it possible, but doable. I did it(not blowing my own trumpet), not only that I also did my night rating at the same time. And the School, CAPE FLYING SERVICES.
If you focus and if you are really dedicated, anything is possible.
Gerald, maybe you must remove the three week thing from your advertising if people moan so much.
If you focus and if you are really dedicated, anything is possible.
Gerald, maybe you must remove the three week thing from your advertising if people moan so much.
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Rob
"Would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?"
This is why we have an agent, not just any agent, but one that is in the know. Someone that has been to Cape Flying Services and is up to date with any changes regarding local rules. He can point a student towards a local flying school after completing with us, where to do a South African CAA recognized medical, flight renewal, visa applications and even organize student loans. He provides Cape Flying Services with a local persona and far more integrity than some web page ever could.
Now can you point me to a British Flying School’s web page that shows what I would require should I decide as a noobie, to do my licence in England and want to come back to South Africa?
Oh, and you do know that Sandy Young is a South African…..right ?
Gerald Todd
Jaco do me a favor, please copy your post to where I started a new thread.
I am also going to check your file
!!!!!
Best regards
Gerald
"Would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?"
This is why we have an agent, not just any agent, but one that is in the know. Someone that has been to Cape Flying Services and is up to date with any changes regarding local rules. He can point a student towards a local flying school after completing with us, where to do a South African CAA recognized medical, flight renewal, visa applications and even organize student loans. He provides Cape Flying Services with a local persona and far more integrity than some web page ever could.
Now can you point me to a British Flying School’s web page that shows what I would require should I decide as a noobie, to do my licence in England and want to come back to South Africa?
Oh, and you do know that Sandy Young is a South African…..right ?
Gerald Todd
Jaco do me a favor, please copy your post to where I started a new thread.
I am also going to check your file
!!!!!Best regards
Gerald
Last edited by CFI-CFS; 24th May 2004 at 15:51.
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A foreigner, let's say trained on a Cessna 152, being sent home with an SA licence and having absolutely no idea that they have to be examined by an SA trained and qualified instructor/examiner before they can fly a 150, a Cherokee, a 172 or any other simple light aircraft in their own country.
One other actual existing problem at the UK end is that one or two UK rental organisations, used to dealing with JAA and FAA licences and 'SEP' legal classes actually convince the new PPL that they can do a type conversion for him/her, not realising that any future incident might have insurance problems when the SA CAA ask 'why was he flying a PA28? - of course, until an incident, everyone happy in ignorance!
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I just want to make another point but isn't the issue between CFS and their UK agent the subject of current legal proceedings. I find it most abnormal for a plaintiff to initiate a running commentry on all that is happening. I recall that a case was thrown out of court when a national newspaper made some unsubstantiated claims re. Leeds United footballers. I know that this is a civil action but even so views expressed here could prejudice the findings of a court.
If so what will happen if Sandy loses his claim for damages? Do Cape Flying Services not have grounds for any counter action given that this thread could be in effect tarnishing their reputation?
If so what will happen if Sandy loses his claim for damages? Do Cape Flying Services not have grounds for any counter action given that this thread could be in effect tarnishing their reputation?
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SA schools
"Would you go to another country and train with a school that can't or won't give you the simplest information about medical, licence validity, future renewals, licence and rating extension and any hindrances to a future professional licence?"
This was the question posed by Rob in his posting above.
I work for a school in SA, other than CFS and have to agree that the answer would be no to the above. I would have to equally disagree that all schools do not answer such questions or give advice on the questions posed. All SA schools cannot be lumped together as doing the same.
Our website has a specific page dedicated to UK and Irish students, giving information on just such questions. All these students are also given contact names of past students who they are free to contact directly for information on their experiences training with us or on joining a club in the UK and further flying there. They are also, very importantly, put in touch with Irv Lee based at Popham in the UK, and directed to his website. Irv is in no way an agent for us nor does he receive any commission from us whatsoever. He is however an enormous font of knowledge for prospective students on the do's and don'ts of flying in SA and the UK.
Our courses can be structured so that a PPL (and CPL) can return to the UK with more than one type on his licence. Irv can do further type ratings for them, on their SA PPL, in G registered aircraft. He can also do their PPL renewals for them and there are doctors in the UK approved to do their SA medicals. They can thus continue to fly in the UK on their SA PPL for as long as they keep it valid. Negotiations are under way to get approval for SA PPLs to fly to France and if this is successful, it will hopefully be extended to other European countries.
All your questions asked above are answered either by us or Irv if the student contacts us or him. Prices are not included in the website purely because we do not have one specific option for a course eg a PPL can fly different types, have different accommodation etc. Detailed prices are supplied immediately on request by whatever means. We ask that 5 weeks be made available for PPL course completion, as 3 weeks is certainly not the norm. It is not possible to answer questions for all students from a number of countries on the website so students from countries other than the UK or Ireland are also given contact details or information when we have been able to obtain it, for the CAA equivalent in their own country to get advice on what they have to do on their return to their own country with an SA PPL.
By the way, we do not advertise in magazines and we are a non-profit Club with a proud history of training for almost 50 years.
This was the question posed by Rob in his posting above.
I work for a school in SA, other than CFS and have to agree that the answer would be no to the above. I would have to equally disagree that all schools do not answer such questions or give advice on the questions posed. All SA schools cannot be lumped together as doing the same.
Our website has a specific page dedicated to UK and Irish students, giving information on just such questions. All these students are also given contact names of past students who they are free to contact directly for information on their experiences training with us or on joining a club in the UK and further flying there. They are also, very importantly, put in touch with Irv Lee based at Popham in the UK, and directed to his website. Irv is in no way an agent for us nor does he receive any commission from us whatsoever. He is however an enormous font of knowledge for prospective students on the do's and don'ts of flying in SA and the UK.
Our courses can be structured so that a PPL (and CPL) can return to the UK with more than one type on his licence. Irv can do further type ratings for them, on their SA PPL, in G registered aircraft. He can also do their PPL renewals for them and there are doctors in the UK approved to do their SA medicals. They can thus continue to fly in the UK on their SA PPL for as long as they keep it valid. Negotiations are under way to get approval for SA PPLs to fly to France and if this is successful, it will hopefully be extended to other European countries.
All your questions asked above are answered either by us or Irv if the student contacts us or him. Prices are not included in the website purely because we do not have one specific option for a course eg a PPL can fly different types, have different accommodation etc. Detailed prices are supplied immediately on request by whatever means. We ask that 5 weeks be made available for PPL course completion, as 3 weeks is certainly not the norm. It is not possible to answer questions for all students from a number of countries on the website so students from countries other than the UK or Ireland are also given contact details or information when we have been able to obtain it, for the CAA equivalent in their own country to get advice on what they have to do on their return to their own country with an SA PPL.
By the way, we do not advertise in magazines and we are a non-profit Club with a proud history of training for almost 50 years.