Cape Flying Services...south Africa
GunsssR4ever
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I apologize for “hanging out our dirty washing” it’s pathetic and this is not the medium through which any legal reconciliation is likely to be met. Cape Flying Services will not refund on principal, and refuses to be blackmailed into doing so, no matter how paltry the sum.
Gerald Todd
Gerald Todd
I see it as cleaning Sandy's dirty washing.
It is clear from these posts that he is the one loosing face. (Sorry if you lost business - but I am sure the "normal man" can see through this bichering - did I say bitching ?
Sandy, sorry mate this is not a personal attack but the ONLY posts you have ever made is too shoot down CFS (and so quite a lot of other 's too that posts ONE or two - never to be heard of again) .. we call them trolls ...
You have thrown the dirty washing - Gerald according to me has made his point - now can you post something that we can LEARN from your flying experiences ... uhmm I pressume you are a qualified CPL 4 holer at least by now - seeing that you have so much "bean counting experience" ...
Come on Sandy call it quits .. I will stick you for a pi55 up in London one day and you can tell me all these war stories while I look at the go - go girls
Have a good one now ..
Nag ou GROTE,
Gunsss
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I am not going to get drawn into personal "pont scoring" on this thread or matter.
The court has ruled that Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) is RESPONSIBLE for the contract and thus FULLY RESPONSIBLE for ensuring that the services and or goods as ADVERTISED as provided are to a standard as ADVERTISED.
This is I have stated my point all along and all concerned including Mr Todd and Mr Pugh are fully aware. For whatever justification or merit they both have ensured that this matter needed to be taken to test within the judicial system, here in the UK.
This point alone, argued without compromise, has enormous public interest within the UK/ SA training system, there are others out there who have suffered similiar circumstances and this court ruling enables them and future students "booking" through Mr Pugh to have the confidence that He ( Mr Pugh) alone has the RESPONSIBILITY of ensuring that all is provided as advertised irrespective of the "business relationship" that exists between both Mr Todd in George South Africa and Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) based within the UK
I am not going to "stoop" low, respond or justify my actions to anyone, within this forum that includes Mr Todd, who arguably, and without doubt is selective on his document releases within this forum. There is a mountain of documents relating to this matter, that I have in my possession that will paint a different picture. This is not the place to "air the dirty washing"
I suppose the real issue here, as is documentated within this thread, is that no one is supposed to complain about the services, justified or not, that is supposed to have or is provided by this school "booked" through Cape Flying Services (Europe) but merely expected to curle up your toes and run away with your tail between your legs and let another financially expensive "bad experience" go unquestioned.
The impending court case will decide on the further merits of my case and the results will be posted as promised.
Regards
Sandy
The court has ruled that Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) is RESPONSIBLE for the contract and thus FULLY RESPONSIBLE for ensuring that the services and or goods as ADVERTISED as provided are to a standard as ADVERTISED.
This is I have stated my point all along and all concerned including Mr Todd and Mr Pugh are fully aware. For whatever justification or merit they both have ensured that this matter needed to be taken to test within the judicial system, here in the UK.
This point alone, argued without compromise, has enormous public interest within the UK/ SA training system, there are others out there who have suffered similiar circumstances and this court ruling enables them and future students "booking" through Mr Pugh to have the confidence that He ( Mr Pugh) alone has the RESPONSIBILITY of ensuring that all is provided as advertised irrespective of the "business relationship" that exists between both Mr Todd in George South Africa and Mr Pugh t/a Cape Flying Services (Europe) based within the UK
I am not going to "stoop" low, respond or justify my actions to anyone, within this forum that includes Mr Todd, who arguably, and without doubt is selective on his document releases within this forum. There is a mountain of documents relating to this matter, that I have in my possession that will paint a different picture. This is not the place to "air the dirty washing"
I suppose the real issue here, as is documentated within this thread, is that no one is supposed to complain about the services, justified or not, that is supposed to have or is provided by this school "booked" through Cape Flying Services (Europe) but merely expected to curle up your toes and run away with your tail between your legs and let another financially expensive "bad experience" go unquestioned.
The impending court case will decide on the further merits of my case and the results will be posted as promised.
Regards
Sandy
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Ok Sandy..
Youv'e made your "pont".
Gunnss has had an excellent experience, you haven't.
Time now to "curle up all toes in your possession" and leave well enough alone.
Gerald - as soon as my daughter decides if she wants to be an avat, uh an avito, an avetor, oh heck - as soon as she decides if she wants to be a pilot, she is coming to you...
Cheers
R
Youv'e made your "pont".
Gunnss has had an excellent experience, you haven't.
Time now to "curle up all toes in your possession" and leave well enough alone.
Gerald - as soon as my daughter decides if she wants to be an avat, uh an avito, an avetor, oh heck - as soon as she decides if she wants to be a pilot, she is coming to you...
Cheers
R
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to everyone reading this.
If your new to aviation then stay the hell away from cape flying services.Sandys experiences are all to familiar to a lot of people out there sadly they wont be aware of this forum.
I cant actually say that I have met anyone who has had a good experience there.
If your new to aviation then stay the hell away from cape flying services.Sandys experiences are all to familiar to a lot of people out there sadly they wont be aware of this forum.
I cant actually say that I have met anyone who has had a good experience there.
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Irish-guy27.5
Hi Irish-guy27.5
My name is Jacobest. Pleased to meet you
Now that you have met me, you can say that you have, in fact, met someone who has had a good experience at CFS.
Have a NICE day
My name is Jacobest. Pleased to meet you
Now that you have met me, you can say that you have, in fact, met someone who has had a good experience at CFS.
Have a NICE day
Last edited by Jetdriver; 26th Apr 2004 at 22:39.
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Jaco, **Next Time is scraping the bottom of the barrel, even for the likes of you! If you want to insult somebody on a public forum, come up with something original. And with that I don't mean "have you found your mountain yet?"
Keep trying boet, you'll get it right some day!
Keep trying boet, you'll get it right some day!
Last edited by Jetdriver; 26th Apr 2004 at 22:40.
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Share experience or forget bad memories???
This is my first posting.
I too encounted an 'experience' with CFS, however I am in two minds as to whether I should 'let sleeping dogs lie' or air my dirty laundry in public.
I am so incensed to learn of other peoples misfortune I feel the truth will surface.
Any suggestions?
I too encounted an 'experience' with CFS, however I am in two minds as to whether I should 'let sleeping dogs lie' or air my dirty laundry in public.
I am so incensed to learn of other peoples misfortune I feel the truth will surface.
Any suggestions?
Moderator
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Here we go again.
Go ahead Staller, but please include as many details, indicating whether your beef was with CFS or with their UK representative.
I cannot allow this to develop into a CFS-bashing exercise but if you had a bad experience you are more than entitled to air it here. Just keep it factual and hold back on the emotions.
4HP
Go ahead Staller, but please include as many details, indicating whether your beef was with CFS or with their UK representative.
I cannot allow this to develop into a CFS-bashing exercise but if you had a bad experience you are more than entitled to air it here. Just keep it factual and hold back on the emotions.
4HP
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Cape Flying Services what??
I have been reading with much concern the posts that have been put here about Cape Flying Services. I did my CPL with them and it is not at all what has been put here. This period of my life was not only challenging, but also one of the most entertaining and pleasant that I have experienced. Sure, every organisation (especially aviation) has its issues and problems, but on the whole the operation is smooth and well run. I found in my time there that it was the students that either had not paid or that did not have the natural pilot ability that were the first to moan. From the day that I started until the day that I finished, Cape Flying Services was always prepared to help me out in any way that they could to ensure that my flying was accommodated, and that I was happy.
Furthermore, I have not seen such coagulation among a group since I left. The morale was high; the crowd good, the quality of training was excellent. My PPL and Night Rating instructor is one of the most dedicated people that I flew with, and my Twin and Instrument Rating instructor (who is the CEO) became my mentor even outside of the aviation arena. I enjoyed it so much I landed up working there and still am to this day, bringing my affiliation with the team up to 3 years. Going so well it is with them, that I am now a Grade II instructor, and have no intentions of leaving in the near future. It is quite rare to find such fraternisation in the aviation environment these days, but at this place there was plenty. People from all over the world joined Cape Flying Services to achieve the common goal of obtaining a licence or building some hours. The instilled traditions added so much character to the eminence of life in George, and I hope that it will continue to prevail as a well-established quality Flight Training Organisation.
Furthermore, I have not seen such coagulation among a group since I left. The morale was high; the crowd good, the quality of training was excellent. My PPL and Night Rating instructor is one of the most dedicated people that I flew with, and my Twin and Instrument Rating instructor (who is the CEO) became my mentor even outside of the aviation arena. I enjoyed it so much I landed up working there and still am to this day, bringing my affiliation with the team up to 3 years. Going so well it is with them, that I am now a Grade II instructor, and have no intentions of leaving in the near future. It is quite rare to find such fraternisation in the aviation environment these days, but at this place there was plenty. People from all over the world joined Cape Flying Services to achieve the common goal of obtaining a licence or building some hours. The instilled traditions added so much character to the eminence of life in George, and I hope that it will continue to prevail as a well-established quality Flight Training Organisation.
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Cape Flying Services
Alexander Webster Young has now heard three different judges in UK courts all tell him that his overall county court claim against Cape Flying Services/Naunton Pugh (UK & Europe agent) is fatuous, but he is still persisting in continuing with his action, which is now part-heard. It goes back to court on 9 June, unless he changes his mind.
The crux of the matter is this: For how many hours flight training did he pay, how many did he receive and if he did not receive the full number he paid for, why did he not receive them? The issue then moves on to this: if he is owed any money, how much and by whom?
All the three judges have told him that this is the only area of contention that will be judged upon.
The course he paid for was a 45-hour course. He flew around 33 hours, taking 32 hours to go solo (when the average pilot takes around 12 - 15 - shows just how good a student pilot he was). He knew he had only three weeks to do the flying and ground school (most PPL students at CFS go for four weeks) but yet he absented himself from CFS for the last two days he was supposed to be with them, going instead to Cape Town.
But he still has his original full claim, for something over Sterling £4,600, in place, claiming for such things as a return flight, car hire, sustenance, time taken off work etc, although in the original letter he wrote about it he states that, so long as he gets his deposit of Sterling £350 back, then he would settle for that. The sticking point there is that, unless a student fails the aviation medical, then the deposit is non-returnable.
These are the basic facts on which the judge will be making judgment.
Leaving aside all the spleen and invective Mr Young has posted on pprune, how would you judge the situation?
Naunton Pugh
The crux of the matter is this: For how many hours flight training did he pay, how many did he receive and if he did not receive the full number he paid for, why did he not receive them? The issue then moves on to this: if he is owed any money, how much and by whom?
All the three judges have told him that this is the only area of contention that will be judged upon.
The course he paid for was a 45-hour course. He flew around 33 hours, taking 32 hours to go solo (when the average pilot takes around 12 - 15 - shows just how good a student pilot he was). He knew he had only three weeks to do the flying and ground school (most PPL students at CFS go for four weeks) but yet he absented himself from CFS for the last two days he was supposed to be with them, going instead to Cape Town.
But he still has his original full claim, for something over Sterling £4,600, in place, claiming for such things as a return flight, car hire, sustenance, time taken off work etc, although in the original letter he wrote about it he states that, so long as he gets his deposit of Sterling £350 back, then he would settle for that. The sticking point there is that, unless a student fails the aviation medical, then the deposit is non-returnable.
These are the basic facts on which the judge will be making judgment.
Leaving aside all the spleen and invective Mr Young has posted on pprune, how would you judge the situation?
Naunton Pugh
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I was and am really excited to see Mr Pugh's first "ever" response to this thread on Pprune!
I am not going to get into a slanging match, reduce myself to the level nor do I wish to with either Mr Pugh or Cape Flying Services George but to merely say that the case is going to be heard on the 29th June 2004, postponed from 9th June due to District Judge commitments.
Needless to say, the UK court, proper and without question, in it's process and procedure will decide who and what is at fault, if any! on that day. I say today with full honesty and integrity that the truth will prevail and I am quite confident that only Mr Pugh or and both Mr Todd will be the one's with the "egg on their face"
A very simple and indeed easily solvable problem has become an uncontrollable one, indeed, damaging to the "reputation" of the Cape Flying Services "company". However, whatever way you argue either on it's merits or whatever Mr Pugh is the only person responsible for any damages or costs for BREACH OF CONTRACT THAT HAS OR MAY HAVE BEEN OCCURRED.
On a more general point, I am happy to see fellow ppruners freely expressing and being allowed to express themselves within this thread as surely any constructive comment regarding this school's dealings whetherinside South Africa or in particular within Europe will only encourage potential students to think twice before booking or and ensuring that the school or it's agent(s) really provide the services or and goods they say they are going to as advertised. Indeed this can only benefit South African aviation in general as foreign provider of training for European students.
This is a "mantle" I will carry for the immediate future and encourage other past students who "had a bad experience" to express it in this forum and thread because this just does not open up a "can of worms" for CFS but , in a wider scale, will expose the failure and duty of care of other South African flying School's to provide above the norm quality training to unsuspecting European aviation students, because, we all want to be given the best chance when we start out!
Regards and Best wishes
Sandy Young
I am not going to get into a slanging match, reduce myself to the level nor do I wish to with either Mr Pugh or Cape Flying Services George but to merely say that the case is going to be heard on the 29th June 2004, postponed from 9th June due to District Judge commitments.
Needless to say, the UK court, proper and without question, in it's process and procedure will decide who and what is at fault, if any! on that day. I say today with full honesty and integrity that the truth will prevail and I am quite confident that only Mr Pugh or and both Mr Todd will be the one's with the "egg on their face"
A very simple and indeed easily solvable problem has become an uncontrollable one, indeed, damaging to the "reputation" of the Cape Flying Services "company". However, whatever way you argue either on it's merits or whatever Mr Pugh is the only person responsible for any damages or costs for BREACH OF CONTRACT THAT HAS OR MAY HAVE BEEN OCCURRED.
On a more general point, I am happy to see fellow ppruners freely expressing and being allowed to express themselves within this thread as surely any constructive comment regarding this school's dealings whetherinside South Africa or in particular within Europe will only encourage potential students to think twice before booking or and ensuring that the school or it's agent(s) really provide the services or and goods they say they are going to as advertised. Indeed this can only benefit South African aviation in general as foreign provider of training for European students.
This is a "mantle" I will carry for the immediate future and encourage other past students who "had a bad experience" to express it in this forum and thread because this just does not open up a "can of worms" for CFS but , in a wider scale, will expose the failure and duty of care of other South African flying School's to provide above the norm quality training to unsuspecting European aviation students, because, we all want to be given the best chance when we start out!
Regards and Best wishes
Sandy Young
Last edited by sanjo69; 20th May 2004 at 23:02.
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Watching this thread with much interest. It would appear that the flying schools must start out behind the eight ball. They have to take on anyone that has the money to commence training, as against The Air Force who normally run a considerable number of tests to ascertain a persons ability to successfully complete the training.
One would have thought that sanjo69 would have done a little, or preferably a lot, of research before committing his money up front. To expect, at his age, starting from scratch, to complete a PPL in three to four weeks is being optomistic in the extreme.
To take someone younger, with a demonstrated ability to absorb the required theory knowledge, and and a proven capacity to absorb the motor skills required in the time frame stated would be ambitious.
The time taken to go solo alone would point to a lack of natural ability, and make the time scale given to complete this task, gaining a PPL, as completely unrealistic, despite what the sales people advise.
Prospector
One would have thought that sanjo69 would have done a little, or preferably a lot, of research before committing his money up front. To expect, at his age, starting from scratch, to complete a PPL in three to four weeks is being optomistic in the extreme.
To take someone younger, with a demonstrated ability to absorb the required theory knowledge, and and a proven capacity to absorb the motor skills required in the time frame stated would be ambitious.
The time taken to go solo alone would point to a lack of natural ability, and make the time scale given to complete this task, gaining a PPL, as completely unrealistic, despite what the sales people advise.
Prospector
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Dear Sanjo69,
Are you still flying or was this course your only approach to aviation?
For me it sounds like you have put your self for a very tight schedule down in South Africa. It sure usually takes far longer than 3 weeks to complete PPL. Maybe enough for a "topgun" but most of us require much more time to learn necessary skills.
Don't give up, keep flying and smiling!
Blues
Are you still flying or was this course your only approach to aviation?
For me it sounds like you have put your self for a very tight schedule down in South Africa. It sure usually takes far longer than 3 weeks to complete PPL. Maybe enough for a "topgun" but most of us require much more time to learn necessary skills.
Don't give up, keep flying and smiling!
Blues
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Sandy wants to continue flying, with Cape Flying Services !! There is a problem though, he wants this.
To be covered by the £350 deposit we believe he is not entitled to.
Gerald Todd
Mr Sandy Young :
Bearing in mind that my student SA PPL expires in 6th April 2004, have 3 exams i.e. Nav, Met and Airframes to complete with around 15- 17 flying hours being required to finally complete the SA PPL. I would anticipate that the course could be completed in around 10 working days i.e. Monday to Friday or at worst 14 days if you include the weekends. To complete the SA PPL has always been my objective when considering the trip in the first place to South Africa back in April 2003.
My proposal to resolve the issue is that you provide the following:
1. Return airline trip from Manchester to George with an acceptable route during perhaps Feb/ March 2004
2. Bed, breakfast an evening meal accommodation at an acceptable location for around 14 nights in George.
3. No more than 17 hours flying time, irrespective of solo or dual with perhaps JLF and all other costs associated with flying the aircraft for the purposes of completing the course any other flying hours required will be paid for by me at an agreed rate.
4. Providing any ground school or any other assistance that is normally required to assist me in completing the course including transport to the airfield and town as appropriate.
5. Completing the 3 remaining exams: Nav. Met and Airframes
6. £300 or R3000 cash to cover other costs that may occur during the trip payable upon acceptance. The acceptance of this proposal and its agreed implementation will end all legal proceedings and action against you. Strange as it may sound I do not harbour any resentful feelings about returning to George, I will be there to do a job by completing the course and will assure you that this is my only intention.
I would be grateful for your comments as soon as possible.
Yours faithfully
Sandy Young
Bearing in mind that my student SA PPL expires in 6th April 2004, have 3 exams i.e. Nav, Met and Airframes to complete with around 15- 17 flying hours being required to finally complete the SA PPL. I would anticipate that the course could be completed in around 10 working days i.e. Monday to Friday or at worst 14 days if you include the weekends. To complete the SA PPL has always been my objective when considering the trip in the first place to South Africa back in April 2003.
My proposal to resolve the issue is that you provide the following:
1. Return airline trip from Manchester to George with an acceptable route during perhaps Feb/ March 2004
2. Bed, breakfast an evening meal accommodation at an acceptable location for around 14 nights in George.
3. No more than 17 hours flying time, irrespective of solo or dual with perhaps JLF and all other costs associated with flying the aircraft for the purposes of completing the course any other flying hours required will be paid for by me at an agreed rate.
4. Providing any ground school or any other assistance that is normally required to assist me in completing the course including transport to the airfield and town as appropriate.
5. Completing the 3 remaining exams: Nav. Met and Airframes
6. £300 or R3000 cash to cover other costs that may occur during the trip payable upon acceptance. The acceptance of this proposal and its agreed implementation will end all legal proceedings and action against you. Strange as it may sound I do not harbour any resentful feelings about returning to George, I will be there to do a job by completing the course and will assure you that this is my only intention.
I would be grateful for your comments as soon as possible.
Yours faithfully
Sandy Young
To be covered by the £350 deposit we believe he is not entitled to.
Gerald Todd
Last edited by CFI-CFS; 21st May 2004 at 02:34.