Cowboys in the Sky! (ref:recent accident-series)
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Cowboys in the Sky! (ref:recent accident-series)
As long as there are cowboys out there that think they have to fuel their egos by flying stunts like using water as a touchdown spot or flying low over a full rugby stadion, there will always be some easy to impress youngsters/inexperienced pilots that feel it's OK to push the limit!
It also does not help that the CAA is fire and flame to support those irresponsible nutters! They should rather pull licences...
Com'on Skully, take that 74 and fly it again out of Rand! Should be right up your alley!
Deaths like the ones in Rand are on your consience my friend,...think about it (for once...)
(But then again, who needs to think when one is a skygod......)
My heart and thoughts go out to those who lost their lifes in the recent accidents and those who got left behind alone!
It also does not help that the CAA is fire and flame to support those irresponsible nutters! They should rather pull licences...
Com'on Skully, take that 74 and fly it again out of Rand! Should be right up your alley!
Deaths like the ones in Rand are on your consience my friend,...think about it (for once...)
(But then again, who needs to think when one is a skygod......)
My heart and thoughts go out to those who lost their lifes in the recent accidents and those who got left behind alone!
Last edited by Setron; 3rd Nov 2008 at 05:32.
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Oh come on, man! Get real.
How do the actions of a pilot who is hugely experienced, capable and in control of his ego negatively influence some inexperienced guy whose ego totally outstrips his abilities??
The fault is not with the guys who CAN do it, it is the fools who would like to THINK THEY CAN! Sadly, no amount of instruction will ever teach common sense to an individual who is disrespectful of the laws of physics and common sense.
If you want to blame anyone then blame the culture of low time/questionable ability and a get them out the door mentality from instructors that is putting people out there who are hardly qualified to fly in broad daylight in some cases, let alone in any stressful environment.
Yes, the recent spate of accidents is horrible, but the fault is not with Scully and his peers who are PROFESSIONALS of SUPERB ABILITIES who think their actions through completely and rehearse thouroughly before they set out to "be irresponsible cowboys".
Take a step back and think about this again. People have always tried to emulate and outdo others regardless of the differences in experience levels between them and the results have almost always been painful or tragic.
The only difference here is that it's not a bunch of kids on bicycles or skateboards trying to outdo each other, but kids with deadly toys that kill far more people than are involved in the posturing and willy-swinging.
How do the actions of a pilot who is hugely experienced, capable and in control of his ego negatively influence some inexperienced guy whose ego totally outstrips his abilities??
The fault is not with the guys who CAN do it, it is the fools who would like to THINK THEY CAN! Sadly, no amount of instruction will ever teach common sense to an individual who is disrespectful of the laws of physics and common sense.
If you want to blame anyone then blame the culture of low time/questionable ability and a get them out the door mentality from instructors that is putting people out there who are hardly qualified to fly in broad daylight in some cases, let alone in any stressful environment.
Yes, the recent spate of accidents is horrible, but the fault is not with Scully and his peers who are PROFESSIONALS of SUPERB ABILITIES who think their actions through completely and rehearse thouroughly before they set out to "be irresponsible cowboys".
Take a step back and think about this again. People have always tried to emulate and outdo others regardless of the differences in experience levels between them and the results have almost always been painful or tragic.
The only difference here is that it's not a bunch of kids on bicycles or skateboards trying to outdo each other, but kids with deadly toys that kill far more people than are involved in the posturing and willy-swinging.
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If you going to name people, one should be a bit more specific, I believe.
I would imagine that an empty 747 or 340, with minimal fuel on board is rather light. So, if it lost TWO engines simultaneously on the same wing, it very likely is not un-flyable, even at 2000' a.g.l.
Secondly, have a look at mentioned Skygod at the next air show. He is about the only aerobatic pilot doing a display who, if a wing sheared off at any given time, the wreckage would NOT land in the crowd, alla Ramschtein style. I am NO defender of the Skygods, but we should not use names here.
Back to the male ego. Yes, very very much the problem at hand with most of the accidents of late, I imagine/surmise, from my armchair sitting at home on the ground.
If you read "The naked pilot" you will see that (surprisingly) at the end of his book, he says that he has not even touched on the devil of "the male ego" in aviation safety.
I HASTEN to add: NOT just the male ego, but both male AND female egos of lately. 1980's onwards. [see S.Trenchpath etc etc]
I would imagine that an empty 747 or 340, with minimal fuel on board is rather light. So, if it lost TWO engines simultaneously on the same wing, it very likely is not un-flyable, even at 2000' a.g.l.
Secondly, have a look at mentioned Skygod at the next air show. He is about the only aerobatic pilot doing a display who, if a wing sheared off at any given time, the wreckage would NOT land in the crowd, alla Ramschtein style. I am NO defender of the Skygods, but we should not use names here.
Back to the male ego. Yes, very very much the problem at hand with most of the accidents of late, I imagine/surmise, from my armchair sitting at home on the ground.
If you read "The naked pilot" you will see that (surprisingly) at the end of his book, he says that he has not even touched on the devil of "the male ego" in aviation safety.
I HASTEN to add: NOT just the male ego, but both male AND female egos of lately. 1980's onwards. [see S.Trenchpath etc etc]
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A read through horrific litany of aircraft accidents in South Africa recently arises in the mind only one word - airmanship - rather lack of it. In so many of the recent disasters the question could be raised as to whether absence of airmanship is possibly the primary cause of the accident and lose of life.
Airmanship was to be a quality that had to be demonstrated by a pilot before he was either checked out as a PPL or had his two year(???) renewal check. If a trainee was not demonstrating airmanship he did not check out - even if the flying was perfekt. If this quality is now lacking in SA general aviation, it is perhaps that the instructor profession must bear much of the responsibility and that in the Flight Ops at CAA, the ultimate over seer, should ask itself if it does enough to monitor the control exercised by Grade II instructors over Grade III instructors and the dedication and maturity of those Grade II people thermselves.
Airmanship was to be a quality that had to be demonstrated by a pilot before he was either checked out as a PPL or had his two year(???) renewal check. If a trainee was not demonstrating airmanship he did not check out - even if the flying was perfekt. If this quality is now lacking in SA general aviation, it is perhaps that the instructor profession must bear much of the responsibility and that in the Flight Ops at CAA, the ultimate over seer, should ask itself if it does enough to monitor the control exercised by Grade II instructors over Grade III instructors and the dedication and maturity of those Grade II people thermselves.
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I was in SA for 12 months over 20 years ago, working for a SA company flying SA req aircraft.
The thing that struck me during my time down there was a lot of pilots were damned cowboys. Beat ups seemed the norm and a lot of unauthorized low flying was witnessed. Lack of self discipline and poor airman-ship, seems to be the root of the problem, they seemed to be having THEN and it seems it has not improved, judging by the accident rate. IMHO. "Aggressive flying" has no place in civil aviation, therefore best it remains with the military.
Operational low flying can only be carried with any degree of safety, only after hours of training, practise and be current!
They published this paper with the results of an enquiry back then and new rules were implemented. Still hasn't had any impact on the accident rate.
Until people who get licenses, realize that aircraft, as with all motor vehicles are lethal if you fool about in them, the accident rate will remain high. It may take a generation for it to improve. It is the impromptu display that will take out people and their innocent passengers as much as anything else. Resist that temptation!
In my view airshows should not be banned, as most displays are carried out by competent pilots after hours of practise and who are current and remain so.
If any pilot needs to get his/her rocks off, and play the fool in an aircraft do this and you may survive. 1/ get someone to show you how to do a bet up properly. 2/ Then, if you haven't got it out of your system do it miles away from anywhere on your own. If you screw it up at least you wont have taken out an innocent passenger or bystander with you. You of course will not have an audience, so not really worth it, is it?
Yes I have made mistakes throughout my career, so learn from others as you will not live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself. I started learning 40 years ago. You will notice I said started learning because I still am learning. We learn from our mistakes.
I think it is a good thing for instructors to take their students to see the aircraft that have been involved in fatal accidents. It ain't a pretty sight believe me and it if makes just one student think twice before doing something stupid, it is worth while.
The thing that struck me during my time down there was a lot of pilots were damned cowboys. Beat ups seemed the norm and a lot of unauthorized low flying was witnessed. Lack of self discipline and poor airman-ship, seems to be the root of the problem, they seemed to be having THEN and it seems it has not improved, judging by the accident rate. IMHO. "Aggressive flying" has no place in civil aviation, therefore best it remains with the military.
Operational low flying can only be carried with any degree of safety, only after hours of training, practise and be current!
They published this paper with the results of an enquiry back then and new rules were implemented. Still hasn't had any impact on the accident rate.
Until people who get licenses, realize that aircraft, as with all motor vehicles are lethal if you fool about in them, the accident rate will remain high. It may take a generation for it to improve. It is the impromptu display that will take out people and their innocent passengers as much as anything else. Resist that temptation!
In my view airshows should not be banned, as most displays are carried out by competent pilots after hours of practise and who are current and remain so.
If any pilot needs to get his/her rocks off, and play the fool in an aircraft do this and you may survive. 1/ get someone to show you how to do a bet up properly. 2/ Then, if you haven't got it out of your system do it miles away from anywhere on your own. If you screw it up at least you wont have taken out an innocent passenger or bystander with you. You of course will not have an audience, so not really worth it, is it?
Yes I have made mistakes throughout my career, so learn from others as you will not live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself. I started learning 40 years ago. You will notice I said started learning because I still am learning. We learn from our mistakes.
I think it is a good thing for instructors to take their students to see the aircraft that have been involved in fatal accidents. It ain't a pretty sight believe me and it if makes just one student think twice before doing something stupid, it is worth while.
Last edited by weido_salt; 3rd Nov 2008 at 04:29.
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No but look - only can gain opinion from reading what is published but the recent accidents are not as much to do with being a cowboy as they are straigh forward lack of common sense and airmanship.........
Without being in judgment but statement of facts..........
It is not clever to retracrt flap while on runway or while moving.
A Baron conversion instructor should point out differences in models of switch position.
On a summer morning on Rwy 35 ast Rand, not much is safelyairborne with six people on or with one engine.
Etc and on and on.....
There is something wrong here at the grass roots!
Without being in judgment but statement of facts..........
It is not clever to retracrt flap while on runway or while moving.
A Baron conversion instructor should point out differences in models of switch position.
On a summer morning on Rwy 35 ast Rand, not much is safelyairborne with six people on or with one engine.
Etc and on and on.....
There is something wrong here at the grass roots!
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Airmanship, Cowboys...........................???????...........
Don't you think we need to find out the causes of some of the accidents before we point fingers. I have heard that a wing came off one of the planes but that is not confirmed. Another a turbo was lost on take off.
Lets get the facts. Too many accidents.
Still not a good situation.
Don't you think we need to find out the causes of some of the accidents before we point fingers. I have heard that a wing came off one of the planes but that is not confirmed. Another a turbo was lost on take off.
Lets get the facts. Too many accidents.
Still not a good situation.
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I must agree with some of the posters that the problem has a deep grounding in a lack of basic Airmanship.
How to address it and fix it once the "uneducated" have been passed off as qualified is for someone much higher up the foodchain than me to figure out, but it is a serious issue that needs addressing.
One of the big challenges to this is that you cannot teach common sense. The best is to try and hammer on the thought processes that will lead to forethought rather than hindsight.
How to address it and fix it once the "uneducated" have been passed off as qualified is for someone much higher up the foodchain than me to figure out, but it is a serious issue that needs addressing.
One of the big challenges to this is that you cannot teach common sense. The best is to try and hammer on the thought processes that will lead to forethought rather than hindsight.
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Setron, Setron, Setron,
You are such a misguided, vindictive, little personality. And then to add the pretentious, OTT little emotional bit at the end of your post... Pathetic.
Stand by for an interesting development fairly soon after this... You're gonna be sooooo surprised.
With absolutely no respect at all,
P&F
You are such a misguided, vindictive, little personality. And then to add the pretentious, OTT little emotional bit at the end of your post... Pathetic.
Stand by for an interesting development fairly soon after this... You're gonna be sooooo surprised.
With absolutely no respect at all,
P&F
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Instructors must not teach flying alone but also airmanship. It is like flying in alps. Many different things to watch out for there. You cannot see the dangers always. You must be tought to anticipate the problem before it comes to you.
Airmanship can be -ingested? But the instructor has to awaken a chain of lateral thought process in the student. It is then the responsibility of the examining instructor-CAA? to ensure that this process has been done, possible he has to invent scenarios and ask questions, on taxi out for test for example, to see if the training process has lit the fire of airmanship thinking. Airmanship in the past is a subject in its own right. Is it still? You could pass a flight test for skill but fail it because of lack of airmanship - so should it be. But it takes a strong CAA to enforce a regime where one can be failed for attitude!
Airmanship can be -ingested? But the instructor has to awaken a chain of lateral thought process in the student. It is then the responsibility of the examining instructor-CAA? to ensure that this process has been done, possible he has to invent scenarios and ask questions, on taxi out for test for example, to see if the training process has lit the fire of airmanship thinking. Airmanship in the past is a subject in its own right. Is it still? You could pass a flight test for skill but fail it because of lack of airmanship - so should it be. But it takes a strong CAA to enforce a regime where one can be failed for attitude!
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Someting is wrong in the state of SA Aviation...
Thanks to all the posts, the well founded (for good thoughts)and and the plain stupid (for a good laugh)!
Also this is in my view not a laughing matter!!!
Lets go:
Puff & Fart - as usual not very constructive and way of the subject!
unstable load - quite correct, airmanship plays a big factor, but I recon if one is a ass on the highway, then you won't change when you strap wings to your bum. It's a culture thing.
exjet - things have changed (for the better) but not far enough!
CJ 750 - Of course we have to find out what happened in the "Rand" case to make it saver for all. Every accident should help to save lifes later but the rootproblem is not metalfatique...
DaH - " There is something wrong here at the grass roots! "
It has become much easyer to get your instructor and this shows now. CAA has lost it and the people pay for it. There is no room for empowerment in Aviation if you have to lower standards of safety to achieve it!
weido_salt - 20 years ago Nelson was still reshaping stones; Things do change over time, it's just a matter of Hdg & Speed!
biggestboy - Wrong; never wanted to be a Train-driver so never applied. I find it rather strange to get your salary payed out of your own pocket
oompilot - I don't see Michael Schumacher driving or for that matter Sean Tucker flying around as a busdriver with 275odd paying passengers behind him! Some things just don't go together if you want to be professional in several.
308GT4 - Point taken, but if someone craves the public admiration then he should also stand for critisism if it arises out of his actions. It's like the movie star, that likes the attention and his picture in the papers but hates the paparazi who put him there!
The immediate effect might be "wow!", but the consequences (not immediate apparent) might be devastating.
I am sure the Ramstein-guys did not plan to have an accident or fly afterwards into the crowd. So, unless he, who's name must not be mentioned, has a cape and flies without an a/c, is just as mortal as anybody else.
You are treading the same dangerous path mentioned by supporting monkeybusiness, 308GT4!
unstable load - Correct, the fault not only rests with the Skully's of this world but also with a low-experience CAA, that tries to make up for mistakes in the past by quick-bleech actions that put low-experienced, not mature enough people out there to do things they are not ready for.
Puhhh, that was long, but I did not want to leave anybody out.
It is always good to have an idol to follow, but always remember:
It's OK to take a risk if you are the only one who is paying for it!
S (not Superman!
)
Also this is in my view not a laughing matter!!!
Lets go:
Puff & Fart - as usual not very constructive and way of the subject!
unstable load - quite correct, airmanship plays a big factor, but I recon if one is a ass on the highway, then you won't change when you strap wings to your bum. It's a culture thing.
exjet - things have changed (for the better) but not far enough!
CJ 750 - Of course we have to find out what happened in the "Rand" case to make it saver for all. Every accident should help to save lifes later but the rootproblem is not metalfatique...
DaH - " There is something wrong here at the grass roots! "
It has become much easyer to get your instructor and this shows now. CAA has lost it and the people pay for it. There is no room for empowerment in Aviation if you have to lower standards of safety to achieve it!
weido_salt - 20 years ago Nelson was still reshaping stones; Things do change over time, it's just a matter of Hdg & Speed!
biggestboy - Wrong; never wanted to be a Train-driver so never applied. I find it rather strange to get your salary payed out of your own pocket
oompilot - I don't see Michael Schumacher driving or for that matter Sean Tucker flying around as a busdriver with 275odd paying passengers behind him! Some things just don't go together if you want to be professional in several.
308GT4 - Point taken, but if someone craves the public admiration then he should also stand for critisism if it arises out of his actions. It's like the movie star, that likes the attention and his picture in the papers but hates the paparazi who put him there!
The immediate effect might be "wow!", but the consequences (not immediate apparent) might be devastating.
I am sure the Ramstein-guys did not plan to have an accident or fly afterwards into the crowd. So, unless he, who's name must not be mentioned, has a cape and flies without an a/c, is just as mortal as anybody else.
You are treading the same dangerous path mentioned by supporting monkeybusiness, 308GT4!
unstable load - Correct, the fault not only rests with the Skully's of this world but also with a low-experience CAA, that tries to make up for mistakes in the past by quick-bleech actions that put low-experienced, not mature enough people out there to do things they are not ready for.
Puhhh, that was long, but I did not want to leave anybody out.
It is always good to have an idol to follow, but always remember:
It's OK to take a risk if you are the only one who is paying for it!
S (not Superman!
)
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Possible then that much of what is wrong with aviation attitude in SA lies as a example direct at door of those who argue that commercial licence holders fly as command and/or single crew on B1900?
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Setron,
Pasted from your opening post:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Com'on Skully, take that 74 and fly it again out of Rand! Should be right up your alley!
Deaths like the ones in Rand are on your consience my friend,...think about it (for once...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Way off the subject? ... You're quite simply wrong chap, and require a serious ACK. I'll be only too happy to administer the corrective action... PM me if you have the courage to take me up on the offer. By the way, Scully is spelt with a "c". How well can you possibly know someone if you can't even spell his name?
The rest of the posts (by others) make for constructive, thought provoking reading. Der Absolute Hammer's theory on teaching airmanship makes particularly good sense, and may just lie at the root of all these accidents lately. Airmanship was a major Pass/ Fail aspect in the SAAF, and most reputable airlines (operators) assess "attitude and bearing" during training and checking.
Pasted from your opening post:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Com'on Skully, take that 74 and fly it again out of Rand! Should be right up your alley!
Deaths like the ones in Rand are on your consience my friend,...think about it (for once...)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Way off the subject? ... You're quite simply wrong chap, and require a serious ACK. I'll be only too happy to administer the corrective action... PM me if you have the courage to take me up on the offer. By the way, Scully is spelt with a "c". How well can you possibly know someone if you can't even spell his name?
The rest of the posts (by others) make for constructive, thought provoking reading. Der Absolute Hammer's theory on teaching airmanship makes particularly good sense, and may just lie at the root of all these accidents lately. Airmanship was a major Pass/ Fail aspect in the SAAF, and most reputable airlines (operators) assess "attitude and bearing" during training and checking.
Last edited by Pitch&Fan; 3rd Nov 2008 at 10:39.
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P&F, I agree. Setron, you are way out of your (or anybody else's) league. Airmanship and discipline usually are major contributory factors in most aviation accidents.
PS. Setron, pleeze lurn too spel.
PS. Setron, pleeze lurn too spel.
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I think the remark made about Scully flying the B742 out of Rand was a bit unfair. I seem to recall it was Dennis Spence who landed the a/c at Rand and not Scully. The flight and landing was conducted by an all-SAA crew after a lot of planning and also done on SAA's insurance who must've been happy it was safe to do otherwise they would not have insured the a/c for this particular flight. I have met Scully and spoken with him quite a few times and he always came across as a first-rate gentleman with a passion for flying second to none. I think it is very harsh and unfair to vilify said gentleman on a public forum and not at all what one would expect from a professional pilot. We pilots are all on the same side (or should be) and we should be singing off the same hymn sheet and looking out for one another. Go read "We band of brothers" by Ernest Gann to see what I mean and dont let envy of a truly professional pilot eat you up.