Cowboys in the Sky! (ref:recent accident-series)
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Goffel,
Yes, Setron did get our attention, rightly so.
I never said they were useless, uneducated, dumb..... YOU DID.
Sure they will find non-compliances when they visit. Except maybe at your outstation, that is, where the pliots don't make mistakes.
Surprisingly eneough, they are pretty good with that and actually manage to get it right more often than not.
They do read it because they ask questions about it if they are unsure of anything.
My perfect company spends a lot of money to try and give the pilots the best training both in the SIM and HF etc to ensure that everyone is working to a common standard. Sadly, they are human so yes, there will be discrepancies and a good auditor will find them and they will be addressed and everyone will learn from it and the overall standard will improve. Your company on the other hand will ace the audit because they have YOU to guide them.
If only that were true. Would you consider coming to work for us?
My doorstep is probably a lot dustier than I would care to admit, mea culpa!
If I had written those comments about "Skully" all of the posters here would have been down my neck as badly and rightly so. What he wrote was an attack of a deeply personal nature on someone who is probably even more professional than you are ( subject to confirmation, of course) and were this not a unanimous forum would almost definitely never have been posted for fear of a libel suit.
Maybe they were only to get our attention, but I will stand by the fact that he stepped over a line by naming names especially when he turned out to be wrong, ie
I fully support the spirit of this thread because the industry that I love and that has supported my family for almost 20 years is in serious trouble in the country I love.
It does not excuse the tone of the initial post in my opinion and I will stand by that statement.
As for the fact that I will struggle to answer technical questions from the guys of all cultures at CAA,
of course I will never get them all right. To expect different is unreasonable, after all the exams do not demand 100%.
I am gong to be shot down for this, but here goes.......
The CAA should be responsible for the travel arrangements and accomodation of their own staff. If they are coming to audit me then it creates a problem because if they do not have a good flight or don't like their rooms then I COULD GET HAMMERED in the audit, so maybe I should stump up and fly them business class or put them in the Cape Sun so they will go easy on me.
Now, before you jump up and down and tell me they are all impartial and would never do that, just remember - they are human and subject to emotions like us all, and has been loudly proclaimed in the press some of them are less than honest.
It is eneough that I will have to pay for the visit from the CAA, I just feel that to add the responsibility of travel and accomodation to my requirements is creating an opening for exploitation.
As for S&T, I get mine with my salary which is paid in arrears AFTER I start my trip, so they are lucky there.
I know that you and others will not agree with a lot of what I and others post here, and rightly so. That is what makes this such a good forum to discuss topics of interest, but when it gets personal it gets WRONG, in my opinion.
I also will happily stand corrected for anything that I am proven wrong about and offer a full and sincere apology if wrong, so feel free to point out any faults that I have made so I can learn from them and correct any misconceptions I may have.
Enjoy the beach, I've got amendments to file
.
Yes, Setron did get our attention, rightly so.
I never said they were useless, uneducated, dumb..... YOU DID.
Pray do tell me, that even when these dumb, stupid, uneducated inspectors arrive at the out - station, they find a string of non-compliances even though the sure up-standing operator has known of their pending visit for a couple of weeks.
Have you ever gone thru yr own files and checked to see whether yr pilots are using a generic empty weight or are they using the legit aircraft empty weight.
The fuel that is in the aircraft is what is written on the nav log......and is the same fuel used for the load sheet. (load-sheeet signed with lic number).
The fuel that is in the aircraft is what is written on the nav log......and is the same fuel used for the load sheet. (load-sheeet signed with lic number).
Have you checked that yr pilots have signed the autho sheet and actually read what they have signed
My perfect company spends a lot of money to try and give the pilots the best training both in the SIM and HF etc to ensure that everyone is working to a common standard. Sadly, they are human so yes, there will be discrepancies and a good auditor will find them and they will be addressed and everyone will learn from it and the overall standard will improve. Your company on the other hand will ace the audit because they have YOU to guide them.
....but then again yr company has got zero non-compliances...(and I am the tooth fairy).
Please..before you throw stones at some other guy about what he has written, make sure your own doorstep is clear.
If I had written those comments about "Skully" all of the posters here would have been down my neck as badly and rightly so. What he wrote was an attack of a deeply personal nature on someone who is probably even more professional than you are ( subject to confirmation, of course) and were this not a unanimous forum would almost definitely never have been posted for fear of a libel suit.
Maybe they were only to get our attention, but I will stand by the fact that he stepped over a line by naming names especially when he turned out to be wrong, ie
Both "Acts" (Water-Skiing & Stadium... The latter having been commanded by Laurie Kay actually)
It does not excuse the tone of the initial post in my opinion and I will stand by that statement.
As for the fact that I will struggle to answer technical questions from the guys of all cultures at CAA,
of course I will never get them all right. To expect different is unreasonable, after all the exams do not demand 100%.
Unfortunately, the guys travell cattle class.
I dont see anything wrong in asking for a 3 star hotel.
Most pilots get their S&T's before they depart....is the CAA any different?.
I dont see anything wrong in asking for a 3 star hotel.
Most pilots get their S&T's before they depart....is the CAA any different?.
The CAA should be responsible for the travel arrangements and accomodation of their own staff. If they are coming to audit me then it creates a problem because if they do not have a good flight or don't like their rooms then I COULD GET HAMMERED in the audit, so maybe I should stump up and fly them business class or put them in the Cape Sun so they will go easy on me.
Now, before you jump up and down and tell me they are all impartial and would never do that, just remember - they are human and subject to emotions like us all, and has been loudly proclaimed in the press some of them are less than honest.
It is eneough that I will have to pay for the visit from the CAA, I just feel that to add the responsibility of travel and accomodation to my requirements is creating an opening for exploitation.
As for S&T, I get mine with my salary which is paid in arrears AFTER I start my trip, so they are lucky there.
I know that you and others will not agree with a lot of what I and others post here, and rightly so. That is what makes this such a good forum to discuss topics of interest, but when it gets personal it gets WRONG, in my opinion.
I also will happily stand corrected for anything that I am proven wrong about and offer a full and sincere apology if wrong, so feel free to point out any faults that I have made so I can learn from them and correct any misconceptions I may have.
Enjoy the beach, I've got amendments to file
.
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Oh well.
Unstable Load.
Very clever with your wording....pity you never mentioned your bit about the "Guvmunt"........or how the white guys have taken either a package or retired........and how the BEEEE guys have suddenly realised that they have a job to do.
Ah.....so you also mention that it is perceived that the CAA guys are available to the highest bidder, (bribery).....To me that borders on you stirring the pot and falling just short of actually saying it yourself., (accountability, enforcement, exam papers).
Setrons comments at no time initially were directed at the CAA, thus your comments being way out of line.
Be a gentleman and admit you screwed up with your comments...no-one is perfect.
Goffel...
Very clever with your wording....pity you never mentioned your bit about the "Guvmunt"........or how the white guys have taken either a package or retired........and how the BEEEE guys have suddenly realised that they have a job to do.
Ah.....so you also mention that it is perceived that the CAA guys are available to the highest bidder, (bribery).....To me that borders on you stirring the pot and falling just short of actually saying it yourself., (accountability, enforcement, exam papers).
Setrons comments at no time initially were directed at the CAA, thus your comments being way out of line.
Be a gentleman and admit you screwed up with your comments...no-one is perfect.
Goffel...
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Okay, I'll go there...
What happened to a lot of the white guys that were at DCA? Some were retiring age, and the balance of the ones that left, left why? Like it or not, Affirmative Action and BEE has done more to undermine business and general confidence in South Africa than it has benefitted the masses it was meant to assist who in many ways are worse off now than they were under apartheid, but that is for another thread.
Yes, the new guys did have a surprise, I believe. Civil aviation is a complex "business" to run at all, let alone effectively and anyone who steps up to the plate with little or no experience is going to get a steep learning curve.
Yes, I do mention that SOME of the people there are open to bribery, and I believe that I did not need to say it because it is a matter of public record that it is indeed the case and furthermore, I don't believe I have anything to apologise for by raising the point. Indeed, it is a fundamental part of the current mess we are in, because they will never have respectability and credibility as an organisation that is a controlling body if there is rot in the core.
You may note that I did not make a blanket accusation of ALL the CAA being crooked, merely some. I don't see how my reiterating something that is part of public knowledge can anyhow be construed as stirring, but if you see it that way, I apologise for misleading you.
No, Setron's comments were not directed at the CAA, however as the governing organisation the ultimate responsibility to fix it lies squarely at their door and no amount of apologising from me is going to change that.
Please note that I am not blaming CAA for the current state of affairs, it has been a joint effort with a general decay in standards and an opinion of "don't care" from some in the industry who are doing their level best to undermine/ignore the very regulations that are there to ensure that things go smoothly and safely.
If I have misled you further with this post, please be so kind as to draw my attention to it, and accept my apology in advance for being clever with the words.
I believe that civil aviation is at a point where it is teetering on the balance between anarchy and ridicule on one side and respectability and a return to the place it deserves in the world on the other.
A serious effort from ALL involved to step up to the plate and fix it is needed as a matter of urgency and my vote goes with fixing it.
I feel that this forum is a good place to start where I don't know who you are and thus do not care whether you are the head of the CAA or merely an apologist for them, and you don't know who I am beyond some irritating, opinionated a-hole who is dumping on the CAA, and this allows us to voice our opinions freely in the hope that someone who has the power to do something actually reads it and DOES SOMETHING before it becomes too difficult to fix.
Instead of telling me off for mentioning that the King has no clothes on, rather tell me how I can help beyond doing my best at my job.
Respectfully,
(seriously) Unstable Load.
What happened to a lot of the white guys that were at DCA? Some were retiring age, and the balance of the ones that left, left why? Like it or not, Affirmative Action and BEE has done more to undermine business and general confidence in South Africa than it has benefitted the masses it was meant to assist who in many ways are worse off now than they were under apartheid, but that is for another thread.
Yes, the new guys did have a surprise, I believe. Civil aviation is a complex "business" to run at all, let alone effectively and anyone who steps up to the plate with little or no experience is going to get a steep learning curve.
Yes, I do mention that SOME of the people there are open to bribery, and I believe that I did not need to say it because it is a matter of public record that it is indeed the case and furthermore, I don't believe I have anything to apologise for by raising the point. Indeed, it is a fundamental part of the current mess we are in, because they will never have respectability and credibility as an organisation that is a controlling body if there is rot in the core.
You may note that I did not make a blanket accusation of ALL the CAA being crooked, merely some. I don't see how my reiterating something that is part of public knowledge can anyhow be construed as stirring, but if you see it that way, I apologise for misleading you.
No, Setron's comments were not directed at the CAA, however as the governing organisation the ultimate responsibility to fix it lies squarely at their door and no amount of apologising from me is going to change that.
Please note that I am not blaming CAA for the current state of affairs, it has been a joint effort with a general decay in standards and an opinion of "don't care" from some in the industry who are doing their level best to undermine/ignore the very regulations that are there to ensure that things go smoothly and safely.
If I have misled you further with this post, please be so kind as to draw my attention to it, and accept my apology in advance for being clever with the words.
I believe that civil aviation is at a point where it is teetering on the balance between anarchy and ridicule on one side and respectability and a return to the place it deserves in the world on the other.
A serious effort from ALL involved to step up to the plate and fix it is needed as a matter of urgency and my vote goes with fixing it.
I feel that this forum is a good place to start where I don't know who you are and thus do not care whether you are the head of the CAA or merely an apologist for them, and you don't know who I am beyond some irritating, opinionated a-hole who is dumping on the CAA, and this allows us to voice our opinions freely in the hope that someone who has the power to do something actually reads it and DOES SOMETHING before it becomes too difficult to fix.
Instead of telling me off for mentioning that the King has no clothes on, rather tell me how I can help beyond doing my best at my job.
Respectfully,
(seriously) Unstable Load.
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Appology accepted.
your appology is accepted.......lets move forward and try to find the kings clothing.
Last I heard is that he was at Sandy Bay...
Goffel.....winging his way to Cape Town..
Last I heard is that he was at Sandy Bay...
Goffel.....winging his way to Cape Town..
Thread Starter
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Sieg Heil P+F !
After my first post, that started this thread, PF wrote:
I then got this message:
So, I was punished for speeking my mind and put in "verbal jail"...
Freedom is always the freedom of the other one!
Restricting freedom of speech shows fear and is the trademark of dictatorship.
Dictarorship has no place in todays times or in aviation and has noting to do with moderation or beeing professional.
I am not surprised at all, just very disappointed. I would not have expected this at PPRUNE. I guess it's all down to the integrity of the people given power to.
If this attitude and notion is still (or again) existing in my SA, then the problem is rooted deeper, much deeper than I initially expected.
Homework:
What is the legal level to fly over build up areas and people in SA (aka: Stadiums)?
What is the LCN of Rand airport and a 747?
What width of a r/w is considered safe to land an a/c in respect of it's wheelbase?
Obviously you can bypass any legislation as you please, if you know who to speak to...
Just makes a mockery out of the legislation, but who cares...
Some are just more equal before the law than others!
Now then PFy, go ahead and get this post deleted as well, while you are hurt again, because the truth sometimes hurts.
..and everybody thought you had died in Berlin in 1945!
Well guys,in case they allow you to read this, be careful in this arena, stick to the rules and keep it safe.
Good day, aux revoirs, allahu akbar, auf wiedersehen, tot seens...
Stand by for an interesting development fairly soon after this... You're gonna be sooooo surprised.
You are currently banned from this thread. Reason given: Let's see how this run's without them having you to argue against...
Freedom is always the freedom of the other one!
Restricting freedom of speech shows fear and is the trademark of dictatorship.
Dictarorship has no place in todays times or in aviation and has noting to do with moderation or beeing professional.
I am not surprised at all, just very disappointed. I would not have expected this at PPRUNE. I guess it's all down to the integrity of the people given power to.
If this attitude and notion is still (or again) existing in my SA, then the problem is rooted deeper, much deeper than I initially expected.
Homework:
What is the legal level to fly over build up areas and people in SA (aka: Stadiums)?
What is the LCN of Rand airport and a 747?
What width of a r/w is considered safe to land an a/c in respect of it's wheelbase?
Obviously you can bypass any legislation as you please, if you know who to speak to...
Just makes a mockery out of the legislation, but who cares...
Some are just more equal before the law than others!
Now then PFy, go ahead and get this post deleted as well, while you are hurt again, because the truth sometimes hurts.
..and everybody thought you had died in Berlin in 1945!
Well guys,in case they allow you to read this, be careful in this arena, stick to the rules and keep it safe.
Good day, aux revoirs, allahu akbar, auf wiedersehen, tot seens...
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I am not surprised at all, just very disappointed. I would not have expected this at PPRUNE. I guess it's all down to the integrity of the people given power to.
If this attitude and notion is still (or again) existing in my SA, then the problem is rooted deeper, much deeper than I initially expected.
If this attitude and notion is still (or again) existing in my SA, then the problem is rooted deeper, much deeper than I initially expected.
Pprune is a BRITISH site. Either I am being really dense or you have your wires crossed.
I have been banned before from the whole site
, so don't feel victimised. You need to remember that although this is a rumour network and anonymous, there is still a responsibility from the Owners to ensure it stays free of anything that may implicate or link them to a possible lawsuitand this is where the moderators need to exercise their judgement.
It could have been your naming names that got you pinged, it could have been that the mods thought the thread could get nasty or personal. Whatever it was, they have the final say here, like it or not.
No matter how much you dislike it, they have the rules to uphold, the same rules you agreed to follow when you joined up. Likening them to Hitler
could get you tossed permanently, depriving us of some healthy discussion.
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Fly catching...
You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.
Why start out in such a judgemental way if you want a positive dialogue?
There are some things I can do as a pilot to raise the general level of safety. There are many more things I think I know about African aviation that are out of my remit:
How it's regulated or not.
How some of my fellow professionals conduct their flights.
How well-maintained some of the aircraft are or not.
There isn't very much use to me raising points about stuff I cannot fix that are fairly well-known unless I just want to have a good moan.
Worse yet, if I start pointing the finger at some individual pilots expect things to go down to mud-slinging pretty quickly. It's probably best to just cite anonymous examples of "how not to do it" or else just stick to my own mistakes, of which I have a few to work from.
"Cowboy pilots" might be part of the problem but what about a system that allows them to fly that way? If someone knows they are not going to get away with doing silly things then they will probably behave and follow the rules. They might even get used to doing that and find life just goes so much more smoothly that way!
If you have a place that has no approaches, lousy weather and high terrain around it you already have a hazard. If you then add a lax attitude on the part of individual pilots (Minimums are for newbies; I know what I'm doing!), commercial pressure (Fred Bloggs seemed to make it in okay; why did you have to abort and return to base with a load of pissed-off passengers? The weather wasn't all that bad was it?) and regulators looking the other way (What, we should shut the airport down just for a few low clouds?), accidents are pre-progammed.
In the final analysis we as pilots just have to make that go/no-go decision and then take whatever comes from that, when many of us are not able to face quitting the job since there is nothing else on offer. You figure out a way to fix that problem and you will really be making progress.
Until then, most of this is a waste of bandwidth, either calling poor old Joe Bloggs a w*nker for converting a perfectly good airplane to a thin film of alloy and hairy strawberry jelly on a rock face or else defending him as one of the best who was just caught by blind fate. Joe Bloggs is just one part of a system that often does not work correctly in Africa!
Try sneaking into a place in the U.S.A. when the birds are walking, some field without any approaches. You will be haunted by the thought of some horrible little man from an F.A.A. GADO (General Aviation District Office) who might hunt you down like Inspector Javert, relentless and merciless, immune to fear, favour and bribery. Not always and everywhere but it does happen, when you shall weep bitter tears for having done a really great job being a cowboy, ignoring the rules. You got the trip done, the pax were happy, the boss is happy, you are screwed!
Not least, the boss is happy because he can watch from a safe distance as you, poor, alone and friendless are ripped to shreds by this FAA hell-hound while he, wealthy and lawyered-up can just say, "Well, Joe, you know I never wanted you to bust minimums there. I have no idea where you got that idea. Okay, I might have asked you if I needed to find me another pilot but I was just joking with you there, when you must have misunderstood. Don't forget to hand in your beeper; I need it for the new guy."
Africa, ah! Not the same at all, is it? We are left alone to figure out what is safe and what is not, when that is inherently unsafe in itself.
Why start out in such a judgemental way if you want a positive dialogue?
There are some things I can do as a pilot to raise the general level of safety. There are many more things I think I know about African aviation that are out of my remit:
How it's regulated or not.
How some of my fellow professionals conduct their flights.
How well-maintained some of the aircraft are or not.
There isn't very much use to me raising points about stuff I cannot fix that are fairly well-known unless I just want to have a good moan.
Worse yet, if I start pointing the finger at some individual pilots expect things to go down to mud-slinging pretty quickly. It's probably best to just cite anonymous examples of "how not to do it" or else just stick to my own mistakes, of which I have a few to work from.
"Cowboy pilots" might be part of the problem but what about a system that allows them to fly that way? If someone knows they are not going to get away with doing silly things then they will probably behave and follow the rules. They might even get used to doing that and find life just goes so much more smoothly that way!
If you have a place that has no approaches, lousy weather and high terrain around it you already have a hazard. If you then add a lax attitude on the part of individual pilots (Minimums are for newbies; I know what I'm doing!), commercial pressure (Fred Bloggs seemed to make it in okay; why did you have to abort and return to base with a load of pissed-off passengers? The weather wasn't all that bad was it?) and regulators looking the other way (What, we should shut the airport down just for a few low clouds?), accidents are pre-progammed.
In the final analysis we as pilots just have to make that go/no-go decision and then take whatever comes from that, when many of us are not able to face quitting the job since there is nothing else on offer. You figure out a way to fix that problem and you will really be making progress.
Until then, most of this is a waste of bandwidth, either calling poor old Joe Bloggs a w*nker for converting a perfectly good airplane to a thin film of alloy and hairy strawberry jelly on a rock face or else defending him as one of the best who was just caught by blind fate. Joe Bloggs is just one part of a system that often does not work correctly in Africa!
Try sneaking into a place in the U.S.A. when the birds are walking, some field without any approaches. You will be haunted by the thought of some horrible little man from an F.A.A. GADO (General Aviation District Office) who might hunt you down like Inspector Javert, relentless and merciless, immune to fear, favour and bribery. Not always and everywhere but it does happen, when you shall weep bitter tears for having done a really great job being a cowboy, ignoring the rules. You got the trip done, the pax were happy, the boss is happy, you are screwed!
Not least, the boss is happy because he can watch from a safe distance as you, poor, alone and friendless are ripped to shreds by this FAA hell-hound while he, wealthy and lawyered-up can just say, "Well, Joe, you know I never wanted you to bust minimums there. I have no idea where you got that idea. Okay, I might have asked you if I needed to find me another pilot but I was just joking with you there, when you must have misunderstood. Don't forget to hand in your beeper; I need it for the new guy."
Africa, ah! Not the same at all, is it? We are left alone to figure out what is safe and what is not, when that is inherently unsafe in itself.
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Yes and also.....
It would not anyway be Hitler...but Dr Joseph Goebbels, who was Minister of Propaganda...if you are to mention unmentionable names. If you are to deal in historical comparisons, and not nice ones, please make accuracy in the statements.
As long as there are cowboys out there that think they have to fuel their egos by flying stunts like using water as a touchdown spot or flying low over a full rugby stadion, there will always be some easy to impress youngsters/inexperienced pilots that feel it's OK to push the limit!
As long as there are cowboys out there that think they have to fuel their egos by to be a pilot, there will always be some youngsters/inexperienced pilots that feel its okay to push another pilots limit?
It would not anyway be Hitler...but Dr Joseph Goebbels, who was Minister of Propaganda...if you are to mention unmentionable names. If you are to deal in historical comparisons, and not nice ones, please make accuracy in the statements.
As long as there are cowboys out there that think they have to fuel their egos by flying stunts like using water as a touchdown spot or flying low over a full rugby stadion, there will always be some easy to impress youngsters/inexperienced pilots that feel it's OK to push the limit!
As long as there are cowboys out there that think they have to fuel their egos by to be a pilot, there will always be some youngsters/inexperienced pilots that feel its okay to push another pilots limit?
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Point taken, suitcaseman.
Do however, remember that the site's rules still apply and regardless of whether the mods are Saffer or Naija this site WILL play be the current regs, unlike some in the Dark continent's aviation community.
Variable pitch Englisch,
I Like it, Hammer!
Do however, remember that the site's rules still apply and regardless of whether the mods are Saffer or Naija this site WILL play be the current regs, unlike some in the Dark continent's aviation community.
Variable pitch Englisch,
I Like it, Hammer!
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suitcaseman: Setron took his timeout because his start point enabled the outraged to deflect all discussion away from the actual problem - a truly desperate safety record.
Setron got timed out to see if the level of discussion regarding SA aviation safety could roughly approach the standard over on Gunship's forums. Now I personally think the discussions there found a comfy, nebulous blame game also - the modern instructor or modern instruction. I reckon that's far too simple and there's only one post I can remember that pointed to it being cultural - built in and pre programed somehow - when there is no over riding 'law' at the pilot's shoulder. That 'law' might be a legislator, strong SOP's, or a superior CP and training department working for the bigger aircraft and pro operators but there's something seriously amiss outside that sphere and it was painful watching days of it being wilfully ignored here with all the feigned, faux outrage.
Far better discussion elsewhere while you lot started fights amongst yourselves.
Rob
Setron got timed out to see if the level of discussion regarding SA aviation safety could roughly approach the standard over on Gunship's forums. Now I personally think the discussions there found a comfy, nebulous blame game also - the modern instructor or modern instruction. I reckon that's far too simple and there's only one post I can remember that pointed to it being cultural - built in and pre programed somehow - when there is no over riding 'law' at the pilot's shoulder. That 'law' might be a legislator, strong SOP's, or a superior CP and training department working for the bigger aircraft and pro operators but there's something seriously amiss outside that sphere and it was painful watching days of it being wilfully ignored here with all the feigned, faux outrage.
Far better discussion elsewhere while you lot started fights amongst yourselves.
Rob
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Media Release
SACAA’s response to the recent aircraft accidents in the general aviation sector. Click here to see the latest media statements.
This below is from that media release.
A total of 103 accidents and 34 fatalities have been recorded from April – October 2008
compared to 102 accidents and 15 fatalities during the same period last year. However, the
5 year comparison table below indicates that, notwithstanding the growth in the aviation
industry, the rate of accident occurrences has been steady around 1,6% year on year which
makes the current year no different, other than the number of fatalities experienced this
month.
SA Civil Aviation Authority
If there is no common thread that can be action taken on by he CAA other than the fact that the pilots were inexperienced, then lack of experience before undertaking certain flying excercies or missions is precisely the the common thread that should be emphasised and that---at grass roots--the flying schools and the testing stages of flying! Inexperience and a failure to recognise that fact and take the necessary advice is part of....yes standy by...the teaching, testing of and insistence upon AIRMANSHIP! That is the common factor !
Now I retire to the trenches!
SACAA’s response to the recent aircraft accidents in the general aviation sector. Click here to see the latest media statements.
This below is from that media release.
A total of 103 accidents and 34 fatalities have been recorded from April – October 2008
compared to 102 accidents and 15 fatalities during the same period last year. However, the
5 year comparison table below indicates that, notwithstanding the growth in the aviation
industry, the rate of accident occurrences has been steady around 1,6% year on year which
makes the current year no different, other than the number of fatalities experienced this
month.
SA Civil Aviation Authority
If there is no common thread that can be action taken on by he CAA other than the fact that the pilots were inexperienced, then lack of experience before undertaking certain flying excercies or missions is precisely the the common thread that should be emphasised and that---at grass roots--the flying schools and the testing stages of flying! Inexperience and a failure to recognise that fact and take the necessary advice is part of....yes standy by...the teaching, testing of and insistence upon AIRMANSHIP! That is the common factor !
Now I retire to the trenches!
Last edited by Der absolute Hammer; 13th Nov 2008 at 22:30.
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Rantings there may be but the fact if the matter is that it is perhaps not such a good idea for the SA CAA to publish a media release which in effect says that the accident statistic this year is just fine because it is the same as last year - only difference is number of people killed.
I bet the dead do not find this so entertaining as they fly about upstairs - or downstairs perhaps too?
I would hesitate very hard before making a ciritcism of the CAA flight ops department-so I do not do so-and I am no longer up to the speed I was in the past with that department. But I wonder these days if the boundaries have had to be changed to cater for cultural or LCDs. In the passed it was perfectkly acceptable for to fail a pilot on a test because of attitude even if his flying was up to the standard. This tough flexibility in CAA standards allowed instructors to be very hard indeed on students in terms of aviating discipline, planning and procedures.
Maybe the accident ratios are the same now as ever they were? But what I would have looked for with a new CEO is a stronger responding from the CAA to the recent disastrous safety record.-But then possible I live in cuckoo clock land?
I bet the dead do not find this so entertaining as they fly about upstairs - or downstairs perhaps too?
I would hesitate very hard before making a ciritcism of the CAA flight ops department-so I do not do so-and I am no longer up to the speed I was in the past with that department. But I wonder these days if the boundaries have had to be changed to cater for cultural or LCDs. In the passed it was perfectkly acceptable for to fail a pilot on a test because of attitude even if his flying was up to the standard. This tough flexibility in CAA standards allowed instructors to be very hard indeed on students in terms of aviating discipline, planning and procedures.
Maybe the accident ratios are the same now as ever they were? But what I would have looked for with a new CEO is a stronger responding from the CAA to the recent disastrous safety record.-But then possible I live in cuckoo clock land?
Last edited by Der absolute Hammer; 14th Nov 2008 at 12:51.
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"Entertainment"
Where is the professionalism in taking a series of fatal crashes as having any entertainment value at all? That's right out of line, I think.
I don't mind, enjoy even, winding up the tinfoil-hatters who show up on Jetblast but that, arguably, is what Jetblast is for! Here I would have thought people could back off, have a think about what we were taught about how to operate safely plus what experience in Africa has taught us and move forward in a reasoned way. Reading about this series of similar accidents seems to invite that.
I remember quite well how it was in Lagos, Nigeria when we would get the word at the "Watering Hole" of some accident or other. That was usually when we would just go into "it can't happen here" mode. There was no pattern emerging to a series of accidents that might apply to us; each one was taken to be something we in our charmed little circle were immune to. (Of course it certainly helped to be somewhat ratted when coming to this conclusion!) Next day this was all gone with the morning mists.
You could argue, I suppose, that part of the pattern was this "no pattern" mentality, that we just couldn't, perhaps still can't, connect the dots. If you do that sometimes you see a trail of dots leading straight to yourself, of course! I know I sure did that, when I took due care to move to another place entirely.
Perhaps part of that is just aging, maturing even. You finally start taking proper rest, reviewing the P.O.H. even when you don't have your annual check coming up, really using stuff such as CRM that you have been taught, not just going along in your little African bubble as if the outside world didn't apply at all...
There are many things we can do as individual pilots that will empower us to operate more safely that really do not take much time at all. Maybe a bit to start with, making that change of position, moving off the spot the dots are heading for but after that it's just a little bit of attention every day, just a few minutes. It sure isn't as much fun as "Kick the tires, light the fires,
the weather; let's go!" but you might last longer.
I don't mind, enjoy even, winding up the tinfoil-hatters who show up on Jetblast but that, arguably, is what Jetblast is for! Here I would have thought people could back off, have a think about what we were taught about how to operate safely plus what experience in Africa has taught us and move forward in a reasoned way. Reading about this series of similar accidents seems to invite that.
I remember quite well how it was in Lagos, Nigeria when we would get the word at the "Watering Hole" of some accident or other. That was usually when we would just go into "it can't happen here" mode. There was no pattern emerging to a series of accidents that might apply to us; each one was taken to be something we in our charmed little circle were immune to. (Of course it certainly helped to be somewhat ratted when coming to this conclusion!) Next day this was all gone with the morning mists.
You could argue, I suppose, that part of the pattern was this "no pattern" mentality, that we just couldn't, perhaps still can't, connect the dots. If you do that sometimes you see a trail of dots leading straight to yourself, of course! I know I sure did that, when I took due care to move to another place entirely.
Perhaps part of that is just aging, maturing even. You finally start taking proper rest, reviewing the P.O.H. even when you don't have your annual check coming up, really using stuff such as CRM that you have been taught, not just going along in your little African bubble as if the outside world didn't apply at all...
There are many things we can do as individual pilots that will empower us to operate more safely that really do not take much time at all. Maybe a bit to start with, making that change of position, moving off the spot the dots are heading for but after that it's just a little bit of attention every day, just a few minutes. It sure isn't as much fun as "Kick the tires, light the fires,
the weather; let's go!" but you might last longer.
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Well, it might be like this, Suitcaseman:
You wrote that you derived entertainment from this discussion, without being at all specific about which part that was.
I don't find it entertaining at all to see people ranting, but perhaps that's just me. To have a serious discussion about safety issues is something useful. To just watch fellow pilots screeching and flinging doo-doo at one another is not really my thing, sorry.
The guy who started the thread got off on the wrong foot by loosely using the term "cowboys" for some people who have died in accidents. That is bound to upset others. Then he ignored that very basic rule of thumb, "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!" Why not take the hint and go back to change the title of the thread when it became clear that it was offensive, even if he was too thick to have that idea from the start?
You know, a loose assumption you might be making is that I think I am really bright when it might just be that I only think that I am brighter than you are! You know, just going by some of what I read here, that is all.
Just because this site is free of charge doesn't mean that is a standing invitation to just waste the space! Why not try to have a productive discussion about how to improve safety rather than just watch the show as entertainment while things spiral out of control? What, the Jerry Springer Show does African Aviation? If anyone is being snobbish doing that it would be you!
I don't find it entertaining at all to see people ranting, but perhaps that's just me. To have a serious discussion about safety issues is something useful. To just watch fellow pilots screeching and flinging doo-doo at one another is not really my thing, sorry.
The guy who started the thread got off on the wrong foot by loosely using the term "cowboys" for some people who have died in accidents. That is bound to upset others. Then he ignored that very basic rule of thumb, "When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging!" Why not take the hint and go back to change the title of the thread when it became clear that it was offensive, even if he was too thick to have that idea from the start?
You know, a loose assumption you might be making is that I think I am really bright when it might just be that I only think that I am brighter than you are! You know, just going by some of what I read here, that is all.
Just because this site is free of charge doesn't mean that is a standing invitation to just waste the space! Why not try to have a productive discussion about how to improve safety rather than just watch the show as entertainment while things spiral out of control? What, the Jerry Springer Show does African Aviation? If anyone is being snobbish doing that it would be you!
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That was not a rant.
It is a pity that further sensible input from South African flying instructors is not coming forth.
This indicates possibly.
1. They do not use Pprune.
2. They do not give a damn anyway.
Now for an inflammatory observation.
I see that many of white South African flying instructors - especially in Johannesburg areas-this days-are Afrikaans speakers and all are on the way up the flying ladder- so as to say, no dedicated instructoring.
Let the CAA state on accident reports the first language of pilot so that communications as with ATC may be determined. Further - this helps in determination of cultural attitudes to flying training.
It is a pity that further sensible input from South African flying instructors is not coming forth.
This indicates possibly.
1. They do not use Pprune.
2. They do not give a damn anyway.
Now for an inflammatory observation.
I see that many of white South African flying instructors - especially in Johannesburg areas-this days-are Afrikaans speakers and all are on the way up the flying ladder- so as to say, no dedicated instructoring.
Let the CAA state on accident reports the first language of pilot so that communications as with ATC may be determined. Further - this helps in determination of cultural attitudes to flying training.
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Der absolute Hammer, what the hell has language got to do with accidents!!! Are you implying that just because of your language you are more or less prone to make an accident!! Language definately don't make a good pilot.
All South African cpl and atpl pilots need to do an English proficiency test. You never hear any Afrikaans on the radio giving or reading back clearances/instructions. You might hear the occasional greeting, but that is it.
I do agree with the lack of interest of the instruction though.
H.S.
All South African cpl and atpl pilots need to do an English proficiency test. You never hear any Afrikaans on the radio giving or reading back clearances/instructions. You might hear the occasional greeting, but that is it.
I do agree with the lack of interest of the instruction though.
H.S.