Cowboys in the Sky! (ref:recent accident-series)
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Hoy Shot,
It could be that if a student is particularly weak in Afrikaans and has an Afrikaans instructor that something could get lost in translation is what Hamer may have meant.
I really don't think that he was off on the German superiority kick.
It could be that if a student is particularly weak in Afrikaans and has an Afrikaans instructor that something could get lost in translation is what Hamer may have meant.
I really don't think that he was off on the German superiority kick.
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Thank you unstable load - a generous statement for me which I will not deny.
As for you Hot Shots -Language has a hell of a lot to do with accidents - reference as a minimum example the Teneriffe/KLM. So please do not be so simple as to ask such a question as what has language got to do with accidents. I agree language do not make a good pilot but a pilot may be a safer pilot in proportion to his fluency in English-especially in the very rapid changing state of aviation today.
To teach the attitudes and outlooks of safe aviation is a complex task and it needs language comprehension of a near colloquial level.
If there is an Afrikaans speaking instructor and an English speaking student then it is very difficult for complete and colloquial cockpit communication - and the other way around too?
Perhaps this is not the case but I have found no instructors with English as their first language who are completely proficient in Afrikaans and no Afrikaans instructors who are completely fluent in English-but the level of English of the Afrikaans instructors is better than the level of Afrikaans of the English instructors.
The best thing that perhaps can be happening is for the CAA to make a massive public campaign to make very public the accisents that have happened and to make other pilots think and plan before they attempt that for which they are not qualified.
As for you Hot Shots -Language has a hell of a lot to do with accidents - reference as a minimum example the Teneriffe/KLM. So please do not be so simple as to ask such a question as what has language got to do with accidents. I agree language do not make a good pilot but a pilot may be a safer pilot in proportion to his fluency in English-especially in the very rapid changing state of aviation today.
To teach the attitudes and outlooks of safe aviation is a complex task and it needs language comprehension of a near colloquial level.
If there is an Afrikaans speaking instructor and an English speaking student then it is very difficult for complete and colloquial cockpit communication - and the other way around too?
Perhaps this is not the case but I have found no instructors with English as their first language who are completely proficient in Afrikaans and no Afrikaans instructors who are completely fluent in English-but the level of English of the Afrikaans instructors is better than the level of Afrikaans of the English instructors.
The best thing that perhaps can be happening is for the CAA to make a massive public campaign to make very public the accisents that have happened and to make other pilots think and plan before they attempt that for which they are not qualified.
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Hammer once again,
You lost me...you must be an Aerospace engineer/Nasa test pilot/Know it all/!!! Write an aviation book or something for crying out loud...we/I would be sure happy to line up and get your autograph...
Ding dong!!!
You lost me...you must be an Aerospace engineer/Nasa test pilot/Know it all/!!! Write an aviation book or something for crying out loud...we/I would be sure happy to line up and get your autograph...
Ding dong!!!
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Lieber Hammer
Was Du so ausfürhlich auf die Muttersprache des Fluglehrers zurück führst ist absoluter quatsch. In Südafrika sprechen die Deutsch, Englisch und Afrikaans sprechenden Einwohner fast alle gleich und ich bin sicher das nichts während der Ausbildung in der Übersetzung verloren geht.
Weiterhin ist es noch mehr quatsch wenn Du behauptest das der afrikaanssprechende Fluglehrer kein Interesse in seinem Beruf hat weil er, wie Du meinst, auf dem Weg nach oben ist. Ist das nicht jeder junge Fluglehrer? Ganz davon abgesehen ob er Deutsch, Xhosa oder was auch immer für ne Muttersprache hat.
Denk mal bisschen nach. Volltrottel!
For the rest of the Ppruners that are not fluent in Hammer's language:
Basically what I said was that its pure absurdity that a person's mother tongue has anything to do with said person's dedication to the job. Regardless of which field we work in. Also, South Africans from different language backgrounds all speak the same. Its getting really difficult to distinguish wether a youngster these days is Afrikaans, German or Xhosa speaking at home. So I doubt things get lost in translation during instruction.
Was Du so ausfürhlich auf die Muttersprache des Fluglehrers zurück führst ist absoluter quatsch. In Südafrika sprechen die Deutsch, Englisch und Afrikaans sprechenden Einwohner fast alle gleich und ich bin sicher das nichts während der Ausbildung in der Übersetzung verloren geht.
Weiterhin ist es noch mehr quatsch wenn Du behauptest das der afrikaanssprechende Fluglehrer kein Interesse in seinem Beruf hat weil er, wie Du meinst, auf dem Weg nach oben ist. Ist das nicht jeder junge Fluglehrer? Ganz davon abgesehen ob er Deutsch, Xhosa oder was auch immer für ne Muttersprache hat.
Denk mal bisschen nach. Volltrottel!
For the rest of the Ppruners that are not fluent in Hammer's language:
Basically what I said was that its pure absurdity that a person's mother tongue has anything to do with said person's dedication to the job. Regardless of which field we work in. Also, South Africans from different language backgrounds all speak the same. Its getting really difficult to distinguish wether a youngster these days is Afrikaans, German or Xhosa speaking at home. So I doubt things get lost in translation during instruction.
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I can say that, yes, the English spoken here in Algeria by the South Africans is all to a very good standard, when some of them must have had Afrikaans as their mother tongue. Xhosa speakers, well, these guys all seem to be a uniform shade of pink so that probably doesn't come into it. Anyway I haven't noticed any clicking sounds.
I don't think that their language or professional dedication either, really comes into the root causes of this obvious problem with African accidents.
I don't think that their language or professional dedication either, really comes into the root causes of this obvious problem with African accidents.
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Thank you for your noble German.
In your English translation..I absolutely agree with you...mother tongue has nothing to do with dedication. I do not think I ever said that it did. My concern and argument had more to do with fluency of communication through the training than anything else.
So I suppose we let the cowboys be cowboys because there seems to be a lack of suggestions here on this thread as to what to do to change that?
In your English translation..I absolutely agree with you...mother tongue has nothing to do with dedication. I do not think I ever said that it did. My concern and argument had more to do with fluency of communication through the training than anything else.
So I suppose we let the cowboys be cowboys because there seems to be a lack of suggestions here on this thread as to what to do to change that?
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Hammer,
Sadly I feel that you are right. This has degenerated to a farce. Sad, because there are a lot of folks on this forum who could contribute so much to trying to get to the bottom of this mess, but we all too often end up like this.
Fly safe, guys and if you are determined to become a statistic, then make it a positive one by contributing to the numbers that do ther jobs professionally and correctly, making aviation the great business it is.
Mina hambha manje.
Sadly I feel that you are right. This has degenerated to a farce. Sad, because there are a lot of folks on this forum who could contribute so much to trying to get to the bottom of this mess, but we all too often end up like this.
Fly safe, guys and if you are determined to become a statistic, then make it a positive one by contributing to the numbers that do ther jobs professionally and correctly, making aviation the great business it is.
Mina hambha manje.
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Here we go again...
How long does one have to spend in Africa before one becomes abnormal, then?
I don't think a normal person would even find this low level of discourse entertaining, let alone the main topic under discussion. That said, yes, I seem to recall a few hangar-flying sessions where we would have more than a few grim laughs over the (non-fatal, usually) misfortunes of others. Not ME, of course, just all of my friends! So the idea that you, Suitcaseman, might find this whole ball of wax entertaining seemed plausible, somehow, especially since what you wrote could be read in exactly the way it was written.
On the other hand I have met a few normal pilots who didn't last very long in Africa before running away back to more normal surroundings. You know our abnormally normal "black-catting" in the bar about how many corpses were spotted on the Sunday trip to the beach: that sort of thing, when they would just curl up like a boiled prawn in a little ball of wounded sensibilities.
The part that really chafes is that there just doesn't seem to be much forward progress in these discussions, not much drawing of obvious conclusions but just a lot of either drooling compassion for yet another unfortunate whose luck has mysteriously run out or else huffing and puffing about lack of skill or professionalism on the part of same.
The one is just fatalism, often fatal in itself, and the other is finger-pointing, well known to be anti-safety.
Please, someone, anyone, point out anything that has worked in Africa continent-wide with coöperation at the highest level. In your dreams, Sunshine! ICAO cannot even get basic adherence to SARPS, when offers of help with that usually go ignored at the highest level. Meanwhile, reasonable suggestions of "best operating practices" at the very lowest level also go ignored, at least until something bad finally happens as predestined.
Like many African countries themselves, this is one seriously fragmented continent. A basket of crabs looks like the Life Guards on parade by comparison.
I do appreciate the notification of African accidents found here, along with the approximate circumstances. That usually is about all, though.
I don't think a normal person would even find this low level of discourse entertaining, let alone the main topic under discussion. That said, yes, I seem to recall a few hangar-flying sessions where we would have more than a few grim laughs over the (non-fatal, usually) misfortunes of others. Not ME, of course, just all of my friends! So the idea that you, Suitcaseman, might find this whole ball of wax entertaining seemed plausible, somehow, especially since what you wrote could be read in exactly the way it was written.
On the other hand I have met a few normal pilots who didn't last very long in Africa before running away back to more normal surroundings. You know our abnormally normal "black-catting" in the bar about how many corpses were spotted on the Sunday trip to the beach: that sort of thing, when they would just curl up like a boiled prawn in a little ball of wounded sensibilities.
The part that really chafes is that there just doesn't seem to be much forward progress in these discussions, not much drawing of obvious conclusions but just a lot of either drooling compassion for yet another unfortunate whose luck has mysteriously run out or else huffing and puffing about lack of skill or professionalism on the part of same.
The one is just fatalism, often fatal in itself, and the other is finger-pointing, well known to be anti-safety.
Please, someone, anyone, point out anything that has worked in Africa continent-wide with coöperation at the highest level. In your dreams, Sunshine! ICAO cannot even get basic adherence to SARPS, when offers of help with that usually go ignored at the highest level. Meanwhile, reasonable suggestions of "best operating practices" at the very lowest level also go ignored, at least until something bad finally happens as predestined.
Like many African countries themselves, this is one seriously fragmented continent. A basket of crabs looks like the Life Guards on parade by comparison.
I do appreciate the notification of African accidents found here, along with the approximate circumstances. That usually is about all, though.
Last edited by chuks; 16th Nov 2008 at 12:02.
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Attitude change
As much as this particular thread has lost it's course and gone off in another direction, let me try to put a couple of cents to it.
I personally have found that the flight planning of flights, (A/C under 20000 pounds), have deteriorated completely.
There is no pride in what these guys are doing, let alone the flouting of the law.
Example......pilot going to Margate....zero met, zero nav log...zero load sheet........zero map...zero everything.....OH...and a PPL at that....(oops, did I mention charter......Nah.......he works for the company as a tea boy).
But he did have his PPL mate with him to show him the way.
Another example....flight from PE......zero loadsheet...zero map...zero fuel monitoring....(oh....had enough fuel on board as he knew that he was over-weight on take off)......not one, but two comm pilots.
Oh yes, before I forget, he had two, yes, two GPS's to show him the way and was very proud of this...(and this was a company flight).
I watched a CAA inspector being told by the one of the pilots to stop wasting their time as he was sure that the inspector would not know the difference between a car licence or a pilot licence.
Time pilots stopped their uppy attitudes, and took some pride and time in their planning....Over-weight is over weight.....
Pity CAA accident department does not put a couple of photo's of dead peopl on prune for all to see...might knock some sense into people when they see that when you are dead, you are dead for very long time.
This thread could go on and on....but nothing will change until the attitude of pilots changed.....if everyone stood together, then the operator will have to change.
Goffel...ja boet.
I personally have found that the flight planning of flights, (A/C under 20000 pounds), have deteriorated completely.
There is no pride in what these guys are doing, let alone the flouting of the law.
Example......pilot going to Margate....zero met, zero nav log...zero load sheet........zero map...zero everything.....OH...and a PPL at that....(oops, did I mention charter......Nah.......he works for the company as a tea boy).
But he did have his PPL mate with him to show him the way.
Another example....flight from PE......zero loadsheet...zero map...zero fuel monitoring....(oh....had enough fuel on board as he knew that he was over-weight on take off)......not one, but two comm pilots.
Oh yes, before I forget, he had two, yes, two GPS's to show him the way and was very proud of this...(and this was a company flight).
I watched a CAA inspector being told by the one of the pilots to stop wasting their time as he was sure that the inspector would not know the difference between a car licence or a pilot licence.
Time pilots stopped their uppy attitudes, and took some pride and time in their planning....Over-weight is over weight.....
Pity CAA accident department does not put a couple of photo's of dead peopl on prune for all to see...might knock some sense into people when they see that when you are dead, you are dead for very long time.
This thread could go on and on....but nothing will change until the attitude of pilots changed.....if everyone stood together, then the operator will have to change.
Goffel...ja boet.
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Goffel...
A sad but an interesting post.
There is a time, not so long ago, when the CAA Inspector could and would have pulled the licence of the pilot concerned in your story - for lack of pre flight planning as a start.
The authority of the Authority may perhaps be a little part of the problem here?
A sad but an interesting post.
There is a time, not so long ago, when the CAA Inspector could and would have pulled the licence of the pilot concerned in your story - for lack of pre flight planning as a start.
The authority of the Authority may perhaps be a little part of the problem here?
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A funny thing happened at the airstrip the other day...
The fire warning bell in the Twotter didn't test. Instead of blowing our ears off it just went "Clonk!"
My 250-hour co-pilot looked at me with a certain hopeful air, as if I might have a spare fire warning bell in my flight bag. Nope!
(Now, actually I was cheating, since I was pretty sure I already knew the answer.) I asked him to get out the MEL and look up the bell, telling him that if there was no entry for it then we were grounded, eh? Ooh, really piling on the pressure.
It turned out that the bell (Surprise!) is something you can do without as long as the red fire warning lights in the pull handles work. Anyway I reached back over my shoulder and fiddled with it until it sort of rang, just so we wouldn't have to snag it.
Well, it beats hell out of just growling to an impressionable young man that we don't need no steenking bell, that we are going anyway. Wrong message but one I used to get all the time when I was in his shoes.
Another time recently we did two (2) aborts just because of some stupid door warning light that we were 99.99% sure was just a mis-rigged switch. First they did that hasty tweaking of it, when it had checked okay but come on just before V1. The second time, ditto, when I told them to now take their time fixing it right; I was going for lunch to reduce the old stress levels.
I told the Chief Engineer that, yeah, I probably was being a bit picky there but how would I look if that big old main door came flopping open just as I rotated? I NEED to be famous as the guy who ignored the door warning light because he knew better? DeHavilland must have put that system on the airplane for a reason, right?
We can just build a safer way of operating one step at a time. It would be nice if teams of ICAO experts swooped down to sort out our African problems for us with coöperation at the very highest national levels but until that happens I guess it's up to us. And no fair for telling Management I am a wally for not taking a trip, okay? ("Me, Boss, me! I will do that trip/fly that bird/take that load without leaving anything behind!" Ever seen that one happen? No, me neither...)
My 250-hour co-pilot looked at me with a certain hopeful air, as if I might have a spare fire warning bell in my flight bag. Nope!
(Now, actually I was cheating, since I was pretty sure I already knew the answer.) I asked him to get out the MEL and look up the bell, telling him that if there was no entry for it then we were grounded, eh? Ooh, really piling on the pressure.
It turned out that the bell (Surprise!) is something you can do without as long as the red fire warning lights in the pull handles work. Anyway I reached back over my shoulder and fiddled with it until it sort of rang, just so we wouldn't have to snag it.
Well, it beats hell out of just growling to an impressionable young man that we don't need no steenking bell, that we are going anyway. Wrong message but one I used to get all the time when I was in his shoes.
Another time recently we did two (2) aborts just because of some stupid door warning light that we were 99.99% sure was just a mis-rigged switch. First they did that hasty tweaking of it, when it had checked okay but come on just before V1. The second time, ditto, when I told them to now take their time fixing it right; I was going for lunch to reduce the old stress levels.
I told the Chief Engineer that, yeah, I probably was being a bit picky there but how would I look if that big old main door came flopping open just as I rotated? I NEED to be famous as the guy who ignored the door warning light because he knew better? DeHavilland must have put that system on the airplane for a reason, right?
We can just build a safer way of operating one step at a time. It would be nice if teams of ICAO experts swooped down to sort out our African problems for us with coöperation at the very highest national levels but until that happens I guess it's up to us. And no fair for telling Management I am a wally for not taking a trip, okay? ("Me, Boss, me! I will do that trip/fly that bird/take that load without leaving anything behind!" Ever seen that one happen? No, me neither...)
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A little off the subject but still on....
I recently finished my training for a PPL and am furthering my studies to CPL.
I am new to the aviaition industry but wish to voice my opinion on a few key issues related to this thread.
I have had training with multiple instructors and to ME it seems there is not a constant method of practice to instruct a wannabe pilot.
During the course of my studies I encountered a instructor that insisted the only way to land with a crosswind was using, ONLY, the crabbing technique.
On another occasion i was shown what the plane was "really" capable of, defying everything i had learnt in the technical about the constraints of the A/C.
On another occasion i was told to land even though i had not been cleared because " I'm a regular so its fine, they understand".
I dont want this coming across as a rant as it is not, I have utter respect for any instructor as I can understand how it is a talent in itself to become one. I do feel though that although this is not day to day teachings if subjecting someone who is easily influenced it could cause " if he can do it i can do it" mentality.
And when talking about the roots of the problem I think the training is as root as you can get..
OneDay
I am new to the aviaition industry but wish to voice my opinion on a few key issues related to this thread.
I have had training with multiple instructors and to ME it seems there is not a constant method of practice to instruct a wannabe pilot.
During the course of my studies I encountered a instructor that insisted the only way to land with a crosswind was using, ONLY, the crabbing technique.
On another occasion i was shown what the plane was "really" capable of, defying everything i had learnt in the technical about the constraints of the A/C.
On another occasion i was told to land even though i had not been cleared because " I'm a regular so its fine, they understand".
I dont want this coming across as a rant as it is not, I have utter respect for any instructor as I can understand how it is a talent in itself to become one. I do feel though that although this is not day to day teachings if subjecting someone who is easily influenced it could cause " if he can do it i can do it" mentality.
And when talking about the roots of the problem I think the training is as root as you can get..
OneDay
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OneDay21,
It is a talent to instruct/teach properly and well. The guy that was so blase' abut the radio work pre-landing with you may not have been a day to day thing for you, but for the instructor it has become the norm as he is in and out that field eneough that the tower has got used to the fact that he has absolutely no discipline or respect for the regs and procedure and work around him.
You may have escaped the influence from him that it is perfectly OK to short-cut procedures, but the next guy may not, and HE may be the one that has a mid-air with you one day because the same instructor passed the message on that radio work is not really that big a deal, after all the tower know what's going on.
Except, the tower won't know what's going on UNLESS SOMEONE TELLS THEM. A bit of a Catch-22??
Most likely because it was the only way he knew how or rather, had actually perfected. Remember, instructors are people and the ego is an important facet of your instruction. An instructor who is weak in a particular field may not be up to telling you he doesn't know so he will alter the perception that the way that he does know is the only/best/preferred way.
Ditto the student's ego. All too often the instructor is a short jump ahead of his student in terms of actual hours and experience, and it is all too easy to adopt the mindset that anything he can do I can do better/faster/heavier/with less fuel etc etc.
I take my hat off to you for your post and the fact that you have identified one of the major players in this issue...
Now, remember what you have said and get out there and spread the word. 
All those guys that will call you a wimp/pu55ie/etc are WRONG!!
I have utter respect for any instructor as I can understand how it is a talent in itself to become one. I do feel though that although this is not day to day teachings if subjecting someone who is easily influenced it could cause " if he can do it i can do it" mentality.
You may have escaped the influence from him that it is perfectly OK to short-cut procedures, but the next guy may not, and HE may be the one that has a mid-air with you one day because the same instructor passed the message on that radio work is not really that big a deal, after all the tower know what's going on.
Except, the tower won't know what's going on UNLESS SOMEONE TELLS THEM. A bit of a Catch-22??
During the course of my studies I encountered a instructor that insisted the only way to land with a crosswind was using, ONLY, the crabbing technique.
Ditto the student's ego. All too often the instructor is a short jump ahead of his student in terms of actual hours and experience, and it is all too easy to adopt the mindset that anything he can do I can do better/faster/heavier/with less fuel etc etc.
I take my hat off to you for your post and the fact that you have identified one of the major players in this issue...
And when talking about the roots of the problem I think the training is as root as you can get..
All those guys that will call you a wimp/pu55ie/etc are WRONG!!
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Safety Record vs Instructor Experience
Could the problem perhaps be that the overall experience level of instructors, particularly at the ab-initio level, be part of the problem? Not really their fault though as this is often the only route to aquiring the hours and experience needed to qualify for that first "airline" job. Leaves the poor student at a disadvantage though as the instructor does not have a wide variety of non -GF/Circuit/Navex/Day VMC experiences to pass on to students thereby improving airmanship and decision making.
Also, being human, if instruction is a means to an end how good will the instructor ultimately be? To excel at something one must have a passion for it.
Apologies in advance to all the dedicated instructors out there who do not fit the above categories.
Also, being human, if instruction is a means to an end how good will the instructor ultimately be? To excel at something one must have a passion for it.
Apologies in advance to all the dedicated instructors out there who do not fit the above categories.
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Dont get me wrong
My post might have come across as a generalisation of all instructors and i'd like to correct that.
Although I may have encountered this I have also encountered great instructors who have a talent and drive for instructing and who put, beyond everything else, safety first.
I just feel there should be a standard followed and more importantly ENFORCED, it should not be a student who brings these key issues up but rather the flightschool/CAA responsible for allowing that instructor to instruct.
I have indeed changed flight schools when I was in this situation and encountered it at the second flight school as well where i changed instructors to one that I feel was better suited.
I'm shotting myself in the foot bringing up these issues when in the end I want to become an instructor myself, never the less, rather an instructor preserving the industry than destroying it...
OneDay
Although I may have encountered this I have also encountered great instructors who have a talent and drive for instructing and who put, beyond everything else, safety first.
I just feel there should be a standard followed and more importantly ENFORCED, it should not be a student who brings these key issues up but rather the flightschool/CAA responsible for allowing that instructor to instruct.
I have indeed changed flight schools when I was in this situation and encountered it at the second flight school as well where i changed instructors to one that I feel was better suited.
I'm shotting myself in the foot bringing up these issues when in the end I want to become an instructor myself, never the less, rather an instructor preserving the industry than destroying it...
OneDay
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OneDay, I admire you for sharing your story.
Instructors are the first line of defence against bad airmanship. As a student you do look at the instructor to teach you the "full package" that includes airmanship and safety conscious decision making. If they are lacking those skills themselves, it will take quite a strong student to recognise it and make the obvious more mature and safe decision to rather move to some place else. If you can do that, I recon you will get quite far in aviation.
Also agree with your last post that you can not generalize. There are some really good instructors out there. In the same breath, there are some bad students as well, that no matter how hard the instructor try to teach him, he "knows best". That is just as big a problem.
Also, if you get to a senior position (Captain, Chief Pilot, etc.) you must lead by example. I have seen to many times that as soon as some guys strap on that fourth bar, they turn into this know-it-all aoll and do whatever he thinks is best, regardless of the SOP, company policy, etc. and try to show his F/O how good he is.
So the problem is bigger than just one part of flying.
H.S.
Instructors are the first line of defence against bad airmanship. As a student you do look at the instructor to teach you the "full package" that includes airmanship and safety conscious decision making. If they are lacking those skills themselves, it will take quite a strong student to recognise it and make the obvious more mature and safe decision to rather move to some place else. If you can do that, I recon you will get quite far in aviation.
Also agree with your last post that you can not generalize. There are some really good instructors out there. In the same breath, there are some bad students as well, that no matter how hard the instructor try to teach him, he "knows best". That is just as big a problem.
Also, if you get to a senior position (Captain, Chief Pilot, etc.) you must lead by example. I have seen to many times that as soon as some guys strap on that fourth bar, they turn into this know-it-all a
oll and do whatever he thinks is best, regardless of the SOP, company policy, etc. and try to show his F/O how good he is.So the problem is bigger than just one part of flying.
H.S.
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The "blame" of this thread seems to be directed at instructors not doing enough for safety
I'm shotting myself in the foot bringing up these issues when in the end I want to become an instructor myself, never the less, rather an instructor preserving the industry than destroying it...
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Having done instruction in SA and in the US, I find one of the major differences is in standardization. Since we are stuck with a system that forces people with 200 hours into instruction in order to gain experience, the FAA have made it a bit easier by having Practical Test Standards. These books are readily available and it makes it very clear what is required from students, instructors and examiners. I have done a few flight tests in the US and at all times I knew exactly what I was required to demonstrate and there were no shortcuts. My ATP test took 2.6 hours with a couple of refuellings because there were required maneuvers which needed to be completed before the examiner could legally sign me off. When in doubt, refer to the PTS. The PTS makes it a lot easier for a young and inexperienced instructor to find out what s/he is required to teach and how.
I have done even more flight tests in SA and the standards have sometimes been variable with no recourse to something like the PTS. When I did my flight instructors rating in SA, there was no syllabus and no "flight instructors handbook" to study from. Aeronav academy had published a book that was already old when I read it but I could find nothing published by the CAA. I have spent a lot of time outside SA recently so that may have changed, someone please correct me if it has.
I like the SA system of having different grades of instructor and I believe a new instructor should work under supervision of a more experienced one, it promotes safety and ensures compliance with the training standards, if the supervision is actually done. When an instructor shows contempt for authority or does not teach all that is required, what kind of pilot do you think that student will turn out to be? Proactive and responsible supervision will go a long way towards correcting that kind of attitude by catching it before it becomes a problem resulting in "cowboy" behaviour. I am off topic in this post as the original poster was lambasting Scully but the thread seems to have drifted towards flight instruction. I personally find nothing wrong in anything Scully has done and do not consider him to be a "cowboy" in any way.
Another big difference between the US and SA is the emphasis on accountability. If I, as the instructor, authorized a student or pilot to fly and they then had an accident or violated airspace, I was going to be answering some difficult questions from the FAA regarding the instruction I gave that pilot. Generally, the FAA treat you as an adult and a professional until proven otherwise and if you screw up you will answer for it, possibly by losing your license or facing criminal charges. I find the SA CAA to be quite toothless in disciplining those who transgress and until that changes there will be a continuing disregard of authority because there are no consequences to speak of.
I do not intend this as a rant against the CAA and I have had some really good instruction in SA but there is obviously a problem when looking at the amount of accidents recently. I would like to see the flight instruction industry in SA become more standardized and that will need to start with practical guidelines from the CAA. The only way for the CAA to garner some needed respect is to have and uphold standards and exercise the "authority" they have.
I have done even more flight tests in SA and the standards have sometimes been variable with no recourse to something like the PTS. When I did my flight instructors rating in SA, there was no syllabus and no "flight instructors handbook" to study from. Aeronav academy had published a book that was already old when I read it but I could find nothing published by the CAA. I have spent a lot of time outside SA recently so that may have changed, someone please correct me if it has.
I like the SA system of having different grades of instructor and I believe a new instructor should work under supervision of a more experienced one, it promotes safety and ensures compliance with the training standards, if the supervision is actually done. When an instructor shows contempt for authority or does not teach all that is required, what kind of pilot do you think that student will turn out to be? Proactive and responsible supervision will go a long way towards correcting that kind of attitude by catching it before it becomes a problem resulting in "cowboy" behaviour. I am off topic in this post as the original poster was lambasting Scully but the thread seems to have drifted towards flight instruction. I personally find nothing wrong in anything Scully has done and do not consider him to be a "cowboy" in any way.
Another big difference between the US and SA is the emphasis on accountability. If I, as the instructor, authorized a student or pilot to fly and they then had an accident or violated airspace, I was going to be answering some difficult questions from the FAA regarding the instruction I gave that pilot. Generally, the FAA treat you as an adult and a professional until proven otherwise and if you screw up you will answer for it, possibly by losing your license or facing criminal charges. I find the SA CAA to be quite toothless in disciplining those who transgress and until that changes there will be a continuing disregard of authority because there are no consequences to speak of.
I do not intend this as a rant against the CAA and I have had some really good instruction in SA but there is obviously a problem when looking at the amount of accidents recently. I would like to see the flight instruction industry in SA become more standardized and that will need to start with practical guidelines from the CAA. The only way for the CAA to garner some needed respect is to have and uphold standards and exercise the "authority" they have.
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jab,
Just out of curiosity, do you use the PTS for the basis of your instruction in South Africa? I know it's a foreign standard, but I was curious as to what if any effect it has on your SA experience.
In the absence of any standard, surely a foreign one is better than nothing?
Just wondering.
Just out of curiosity, do you use the PTS for the basis of your instruction in South Africa? I know it's a foreign standard, but I was curious as to what if any effect it has on your SA experience.
In the absence of any standard, surely a foreign one is better than nothing?
Just wondering.
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I don't use the PTS in SA but I do keep it handy and show it to students so that they are aware of it and I let them know how they can get one. Flight instruction everywhere shares the fundamental goal of teaching someone to fly and it is just the approach to it that may vary. Flying is flying, any experience helps and the same goes for instruction in my opinion.
I have my own bastardised training manual which I first started in SA and then added to in the US. I have to be very careful because there are such different ways of doing the maneuvers in the different systems. For example, the quick stop is done slightly differently under the FAA versus JAA systems and the JAA don't like it if you do the American version. Small stuff but it will make a difference when your student goes for his flight test if you have taught him incorrectly. This is not a problem when teaching within one system but it is something I need to concentrate on and I can fall back on the PTS.
There are standards in SA flying and in my travels I have generally found that standard to be quite high in comparison with pilots from other countries.
I have not done a lot of instruction and I would prefer someone more qualified to comment in this thread. It is my impression that the flight schools have different standards because the CAA has not set them clearly or enforced them enough. I think the training industry needs guidance and discipline from the CAA and thus far I have not seen it. I hope that changes.
I don't use the PTS in SA but I do keep it handy and show it to students so that they are aware of it and I let them know how they can get one. Flight instruction everywhere shares the fundamental goal of teaching someone to fly and it is just the approach to it that may vary. Flying is flying, any experience helps and the same goes for instruction in my opinion.
I have my own bastardised training manual which I first started in SA and then added to in the US. I have to be very careful because there are such different ways of doing the maneuvers in the different systems. For example, the quick stop is done slightly differently under the FAA versus JAA systems and the JAA don't like it if you do the American version. Small stuff but it will make a difference when your student goes for his flight test if you have taught him incorrectly. This is not a problem when teaching within one system but it is something I need to concentrate on and I can fall back on the PTS.
There are standards in SA flying and in my travels I have generally found that standard to be quite high in comparison with pilots from other countries.
I have not done a lot of instruction and I would prefer someone more qualified to comment in this thread. It is my impression that the flight schools have different standards because the CAA has not set them clearly or enforced them enough. I think the training industry needs guidance and discipline from the CAA and thus far I have not seen it. I hope that changes.