V35B

For those of you who are a upbeat SAA getting one back on the low cost carriers, you make me laugh. The current LCC's will be better run and managed than Mango will ever be. Just take a look at its big brother. I am not trying to have a go at the previous posts but I just feel that there is a slightly aggressive approach towards the current LCC's on this thread. Just remember that the LCC's and Nationwide are privately run, and a have provided a lot of jobs for a lot of people. They have proved themselves in the industry already by competing with SAA, now they have to compete with another airline with an endless flow of cash. I think they are relatively justified for feeling a bit miffed. Happy flying guys

JetPark

V35B - very nicely put. Good observation. I got handed a liqui-fruit at a traffic light wrapped in a Mango branded wrap-around thing - very clever marketing strategy. That could not have come cheap! Not sure if that was a country-wide strategy. If so, at least I got something back from my tax payment propping them up

Solid Rust Twotter

Will the gloating from certain posters continue when Mango have achieved their objectives of putting pilots out of a job and increasing prices to pre LCC levels?

Deskjocky

First post and such a lot to say, vested interest perhaps?

In terms of Mango’s management, I would suggest you give the guys the opportunity to show you what they can do- I can assure you that you will not be disappointed- or perhaps you will- if what I have postulated about your vested interest is true.

In terms of aggression I would suggest you really read some of the posts- most of it is directed at SAA- posts by SRT and JP that follow yours are an example of such. The other LCC’s? well over the last few months I for one have debated their position in what I consider to be a balanced way- pros and cons, look up my posts if you don’t believe me- these guys have some real challenges ahead- even without the Mango influence.

I get the feeling that some posters here feel that SAA should rather just roll over and die, well all may not be where we want it to be with the national carrier, however a definite plan is in place to remedy to malaise the business has been in for the last few years and return to long term profitability- something that will cost the tax payer far less than if SAA went belly up. Part of this plan is Mango, the rest of the strategy will emerge in the new year.

Our plans will be executed within the law’s of the country- as always our competitors know they have an ever vigilant competition authority to whom they can turn if they feel they have been aggrieved. I do however feel quite confident that they will find this difficult to do as there are no underhanded tactics on SAA’s part insofar as Mango is concerned- it is just a good business opportunity that will now be exploited.

What disappoints me about some of the participants in this forum is their lack of vision in terms of where air travel can be taken to in this country, we know that only 5 to10% of the people in this country have ever flown- have any of you any idea what the average black person pays to ride a clapped out old taxi form Johannesburg to East London/PE etc? Go find out. Then lets talk about jobs for pilots.

Solid Rust Twotter

Wise up...

At no point have I ever expressed the wish SAA would roll over and die.

Standing on their own without being propped up in part by taxes from their competition, however....

Deskjocky

Suggest you go back and do a little reading – that the whole point of the exercise- the long term and sustained profitability of SAA

Solid Rust Twotter

By using the taxpayer to fund them to undercut the competition and put them out of business?

Deskjocky

Is this the only argument you have? if the competition are as good as everybody seems to say they are then they nothing to worry about- if the market grows then its good for everyone- problem is they know their business models contain certain fundamental flaws- these would have been exposed in the long term in any event regardless of what SAA does. So what are they doing aside from planting stories in the Media about how much tax you pay.

As an aside…. everyone seems to be very forgetful of how, through SAA and therefore by default THE TAXPAYER, Comair got their first 737’s when the white paper on aviation came out in the early 90’s- SAA gave 3 aircraft to Comair for literally nothing and then agreed to maintain them as well as provide the pilots for the first 2 years. Without this handout I doubt Comair would have been able to take advantage of the advent of deregulation in the market so soon- if they had done it on their own it would have taken them much longer and cost them an absolute fortune. It’s a long way from operating clapped out old F27’s to SZK to a jet airline.

Facts are nasty things when they get out….much like Comair’s involvement in the demise of Sun Air- but lets leave that for another time shall we?

George Tower

Afternoon All,

I see things are getting fruity in here.

The tone of the debate has always been very much the handbags that characterise Boeing v Airbus.

Both Kulula and 1Time do face some big decisions soon as their fleets are aging and inefficient compared to the B738 which has the lowest fuel cost per seat km compared to the competitors.

What irks me though is the cheap thrills that peple like Q4NVS seem to get from the idea of Mango. Quite frankly you're just a bit sad and I'm left wondering whether you want to see a Jacob Zuma, Jeremy Cronin Marxist dream ticket elected to running this country. I'd recommend you read some Adam Smith along side the diet of Karl Marx

Deskjocky - The critic would say "at what cost?" How much "investment" does it take, how bottomless is the pit of money? And why no mention of privatisation?

Solid Rust Twotter

Pretty much, it's a valid point.

Seems sucking on the taxpayer's tit blinds one to the truth. As GT asks, just how bottomless is this money supply? Even Comair had to stand on their own feet eventually but it appears the national carrier has no such intention. The LCCs were making a profit and surviving, expanding in some cases, unlike SAA who continue to require state bailouts. Those carriers are now funding their own demise through the tax paid by them, a portion of which, no doubt, will go to their competition.

A competition lawyer on the board would also appear to signal an intention to sail very close to the wind, judging by past anti competitive performance from the parent company.

As for the effect on the crews at SAA, well that's something that will have to be considered for the future, but friends who fly for them are not at all happy about the situation. At worst, a lot of pilots will lose their livelihood and prices will rise. At best, trade will be fair and healthy competition will ensure everyone's a winner, but on past performance, I'm not holding my breath.

Contract Dog

SRT, at least up here on contract we dont have to worry about funding mango. I love the 183 day rule

Q4NVS

GT, I do not know what you are trying to prove except that you read a lot of bookcovers at your local CNA...

Your statement wrt to "Cheap Thrills" is bollocks and I'm sure you know that.

I challenge you to expose these "Cheap Thrills" that are not based on Fact or Common Business sense.

I do applaud the arrival of Mango, you are right - pardon the punt, but their arrival THRILLS me!!!

You know why - because more people are benefitting from it, than not.
1. Consumers are finding it slightly easier/cheaper to travel, even though it might only be seasonal.
2. 40+ ATP/Com guys have Airline Jobs which did they did not have a few weeks back. (i.e better pay and equipment)
3. Entry level guys are finding employment with the likes of NTW etc.
4. I still need to understand the problem here, except the effect it might have on some family businesses (those who were screwing the consumers while the consumers themselves thought they were flying hard bargains).

In fact, i'm getting bored even typing this response

Maybe, one day, when your profile "PPL soon to be CPL" becomes "CPL or Higher", you will show us how you bypass the doors of Mango to go ask VB for a job where you earn less than a barman at my local hangout - Don't think so..

Chill and be glad for those who got the opportunities - they worked for it while paying for the boss's racing cars.

I'm also sure the consumers can look after themselves - I do.

jbayfan

Most SAA pilots are against Mango as they feel it threatens their future and that SAA will slowly start transfering routes to Mango. I do not agree with this view and feel that Mango is both necessary for SAA's future viability and serves a completely different market than that which SAA, as a Star Alliance member, needs to serve.

For those who feel that Mango can't sell tickets at a lower cost than its competitors, take a look at Ryanair who operate the same aircraft type as Mango and pay salaries equivalent to SAA mainline salaries, yet sell tickets at very low prices and have just posted a R1 billion profit.

Where Mango is going to catch a wake-up call is when they try to turn a B738 with 186 pax in 25 minutes at an African airport, especially at JIA where chaos is the norm, not the exception. That will kill their planned utilisation of 12.5 hours per aircraft per day and will seriously piss off their pax with late departures and arrivals.

Shrike200

Yes, I'm pretty curious about this point myself - if they routinely succeed, it will be a wonderful opportunity to see how they do it. I don't want to be a sceptic though, but my current opinion is that they will struggle more often than not. 'Tis the season of the T-storm as well, just to add to the mix....

Picture the scenario: The aircraft is parked on a B or C20+ stand, no airstair, which means 180+ pax must be bussed from, then to the aircraft. Add weather, JIA chaos, any technical snags (should be few on the -800's though)......it'll be a real challenge. Lets see how they hold up.

FlyingPassion

I applaud all the LCC's including Mango for giving the consumer a break in terms of price and for giving us "okes" a break in terms of jobs, but I wonder why no-one is asking the simple question - How does one LEGALLY turn around a B737-300 or MD80/DC9 in 30-35 minutes when there is a mandatory 60 minute cool down period before tyre pressures can be taken, gyros have stopped, etc?" It would appear that ALL the LCC's are cutting corners here. Dont know about the B738 regarding gyro's but they still have wheels dont they. This is not made up, this is according to Boeing. Anyone got the answers?

cigar

Was also wondering about the cooling down period. Worldwide 30-35 minutes is the norm for LCC turnaround time (take Southwest and Ryanair for example) so it can't be too much of an issue.

Shrike200

Where would you find this legally mandated 60 minute cooldown period? I've never heard anything about that. (Edit to add: Or maybe I have, just forgotten as usual!) There's the usual brake energy level checks (with possible delay, and true, it does use 60 minutes as a basis I seem to remember), IRS alignment etc, but other than that I'm not aware of any turnaround time limitations in terms of a blanket '60 minutes'...I'd like to know more.

beechbum

The 737-400, at heavy landing weights at Johannesburg (sorry ORT IA), obviously temp related, suffers from a 53min turnaround restriction. This defintitely hinders turnaround times and can be a real issue in the summer months. The 737-300 is not limited as well as the DC9/MD80. I'm not sure about the -800 as in present SAA config it is not an issue but with the extra seats etc there may be a problem.....or maybe Boeing has resolved the issues of the -400. Would be interesting to know!
As far as IRS alignment is concerned....you know that you either have time for a long align or a short align....the choice is yours and does not play a role in any form of turnaround restrictions whatsoever......!!!

George Tower

Gormless Q4,

I was not going to bother wasting my time replying. Seems like you're both as sad as eachother. My point all the long has been that governments should not run or own airlines or even be allowed to remotely gerrymander with airlines.

If you are so myopic to see only the cheap seats in front of you and not the impact of this kind of state owned player in a free market then great. You will note that in the UK, US and EU all the low cost revolution has been driven by the private sector. That is my point.

If you'd oppose me on that basis, but its with a few insults, and jibes about VB's racing cars its a waste of time.

Rgds

GT

T Hairy Henry

I think the most important thing out of all this is.....surely there is a better use for the money that is being spent on Mango. Just take a look around! I'm sure you'll think of something.

A government doesn't operate an airline to make money. It does it to provide a service to aid the development of the nation. In SA there are already enough private sector operators in the market to do this, and at a low cost (The only exception being the long haul market).

The government needs to move on and start/continue to develop other services that will benefit the development of the country.