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Originally Posted by CBSITCB
(Post 10386084)
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then, de facto, it is a private flight. If the pilot only had a PPL how can it be anything else? He could pretend he had a CPL, or ATPL, or fly rockets for NASA - doesn't change that fact.
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Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10386088)
Great, I’m off to start my air charter company. Can you guys form a queue outside my door, I’m hiring, but don’t forget when it all goes wrong you’re responsible and I’ll be in the Bahamas.
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The final outcome of this investigation will make an interesting read.
I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why. As others have mentioned, the hole was dug for him long before it got into that aircraft. However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry, as an aircraft engineer I (thankfully) never had to go down the expensive, torturous route of trying to get a job flying a commercial aircraft. Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions. Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours. IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc. Now I'll get off my soap box ! |
Mr Ibbotson was 59.
Lawyers etc. have internships where they don't get paid to get experience. |
Originally Posted by Hipper
(Post 10386109)
Mr Ibbotson was 59.
Lawyers etc. have internships where they don't get paid to get experience. |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10386018)
Of course !, but how do you want to prove this if everyone involved ( still alive) says it was a private arrangement and no money was involved?
By all accounts this aircraft has been engaged in these activities for quite some time so an audit of the historic movements of money relating to its operation will reveal who is likely to have funded its fateful last flight. I have no idea how much a Malibu costs to run but I am able to estimate that the fuel cost alone is some £150/hr. So what is the likelihood that the owner is a charitable organisation set up to provide free transportation to ridiculously wealthy footballers? |
complex confusion
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10386085)
EASA regs allow the use of a foreign registered aircraft but FAA regs specify equally. In any event, you are not allowed to use a complex aircraft. |
Originally Posted by EXDAC
(Post 10386184)
I doubt someone just gave him the keys of the Malibu if he had never flown a complex aircraft before.
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HIGH PROFILE and MONEY
There are two factors here that will ensure finding a 'responsibility trail '.When substantial amounts of money are concerned there will be parties that require that 'someone pays' and the legal 'chasers' will then get to deal with it in their own way.
Eventually someone will be held financially responsible which may THEN lead to a further legal battle with the relevant authorities. With few actual witnesses or corroborated information then the process will be protracted and complicated. As alluded before this could well be the equivalent of a 'Shoreham Showdown' for non scheduled quasi commercial operations, and ramifications for many operations including genuine clubs. The CAA have as part of their mandate a responsibility to ensure safe passage for commercial passengers both scheduled and 'charter' but it is unreasonable to expect them to police the entire aviation spectrum with current resources, and with the latitude now being shown via EASA regs prosecutions are frequently only possible with substantial intelligence led information, and or input from other parties. I hope this does not reduce the level of 'cause investigation' with regard to the recent loss of two UK pilots in Spain, because there may well be some useful lessons to be learnt from that. |
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10386085)
EASA regs allow the use of a foreign registered aircraft but FAA regs specify equally. In any event, you are not allowed to use a complex aircraft. European and National regulations permit cost sharing as follows:
Direct costs means the costs directly incurred in relation to a flight (e.g. fuel, airfield charges, rental fee for an aircraft). There can be no element of profit. Annual costs which cannot be included in the cost sharing are the cost of keeping, maintaining, insuring and operating the aircraft over a period of one calendar year. There can be no element of profit.Additional guidance
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Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA terminology meant here . Check the definition on google if you do not believe me.
And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe. |
The final outcome of this investigation will make an interesting read. I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why. As others have mentioned, the hole was dug for him long before it got into that aircraft. However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry, as an aircraft engineer I (thankfully) never had to go down the expensive, torturous route of trying to get a job flying a commercial aircraft. Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions. Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours. IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc. Now I'll get off my soap box ! |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10385695)
If you enforce this, there are easy way to go around this as hours are self declarative for PPL .
And even if you regulate that you have to bring a cerified log book when going to renew your medical , Pilots log books can be altered easily and even the highly regulated aircraft maintenance books can be "tuned in" to fit the purpose if you own the aircraft, as to the name on a flight plan , not sure a data base on this is possible, but if it did and you wanted to avoid being flagged, just phone the plans or file on internet and write what you want on that field. Do not underestimate the ingenuity of those that want to beat the system. Spending a bit of time in Africa opens the mind to what is possible :E If you are doctoring your logbook, then you are committing fraud. When you sign the little bit in the corner saying "true and correct." Stricter regulation is not required. Just stricter and more proactive enforcement. From my experience, you can get away with a lot in Africa and Indonesia by slipping a few bills with the logbook. |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10386243)
Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA or FAA terminology meant here . Check the definition on google if you do not believe me.
And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe. https://www.iaopa.eu/mediaServlet/st...PA_revised.pdf If this remained a current requirement had DI undergone such training. |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10386010)
Ok , let me try this story . I have to say that I am not a lawyer nor an expert in UK rules, but I guess this story is universal .If not then I'll be happy to be corrected.
You own a car , I am a good friend of yours and ask you if I can borrow your car for the week end as mine is U/S, and later tell you my son will drive it up and sown to France to pick up someone . You say yes and give me the cars papers and the keys. My son comes to me later and says, I cannot do the trip buy my friend John that you know very well, will do it ; you say Ok , not ideal, but OK... X gets an accident because he drove well above the speed limit and kills someone. If no money changed hands, it is only the driver who is responsible., not the owner of the car, me who arranged the trip, or,my son who was supposed to drive. |
I have not seen the reason for the delay to the original 0900 flight plan.
A morning departure, I would have thought, would obviously be what Mr Ibbotson would have preferred, so the delay, I would not think, had been his decision |
Backtrack :
For a Flight from Nantes to Cardiff……… What is he doing at 5.000 ft in a plane that can go in the higher Flight levels avoiding any bad weather and ice in the first place????? Being at 5.000, and being in ice, got him to request the lower altitude of 2.500. What happened afterwards is pure speculation. But for a flight from Nantes to Cardiff? ? ? Why on planet Earth choose a low cruising altitude and ending up at 5.000 ft over the Channel???? Me in my Jodel 120 at 5.000 ft, that's an understandable cruise. But in that airframe? ? ? ? For that distance? ? ? In that weather? ? ? Sorry, don't get it. |
Guys, a Malibu is not a "complex aircraft " in the EASA or FAA terminology meant here . Edit - to add, I took the above definition from Wikipedia, but have just taken the time to look up the current definition on the FAA website, FAR 61.1 "Complex airplane means an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, including airplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller, including seaplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control." And why focusing on cost sharing ?We have no proof that this was the case here, it could be just transporting someone for free. Period. This is allowed on an N registered aircraft, "family and friends" is the correct US phraseology I believe. |
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Originally Posted by Silver_Light
(Post 10385878)
What is the general theory here as to where David Ibbotson's body is, as I believe there is a crowdfunding page set up to raise enough money to try and find him?
On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing. His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time? And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account? With the prevailing wind and currents around that date, I would be searching the coastlines around Sark, North East Guernsey, Herm, Possibly Jethou and then the French coast Le Manche area from approximately Le Brisay area up to Clairfontaine. Unfortunately searching in the vicinity of the Nuclear Plant at Flamanville may prove problematic. Use a helicopter. Go slow and low and have maybe two spotters looking out as well as the pilots. Many of the Channel island coves and rocks around say Sark etc, are very difficult to see from the water or the land/cliffs. Only a slow methodical search by helicopter or drone would be suitable in my opinion. I know of one instance where a car going over the cliff in Guernsey could not be seen by land or sea, but a helicopter spotted it straight away. Apart from doing that, you'd only be extending the search for the 'needle in the haystack' |
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