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Originally Posted by deltafox44
(Post 10383038)
The missing body would have been ejected from the plane at the impact.
That's a pretty assertive statement. How exactly do you know this to be fact? |
Originally Posted by Silver_Light
(Post 10385878)
W
And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account? Unfortunately, if what has been discussed here regarding Mr. Ibbotson's licence privileges turns out to be true, he'll most likely become the scapegoat. It wouldn't surprise me if whoever arranged this trip gets off scott free. |
Originally Posted by Silver_Light
(Post 10385878)
What is the general theory here as to where David Ibbotson's body is, as I believe there is a crowdfunding page set up to raise enough money to try and find him?
On other forums the fact that the AAIB have called off the search and trying to raise the wreck has caused an outcry on the grounds of inequality and that if it hadn't been Sala that they found, it would be ongoing. His family don't want to give up but do they honestly think they will find him after all this time? And one last final question- it's a difficult one I know... who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account? Willie McKay: Father of the agent acting for Nantes Football Club contacted David Henderson to book/arrange the flight. Didn’t specify an aircraft but wanted David Henderson as the pilot. Didn’t charge Sala. David Henderson: Commercial Pilot/Charter Broker/Aircraft Manager. Not known who he contacted to arrange the aircraft but arranged for Ibbotson to be the pilot. Has had very well publicised previous linkage to the aircraft. His credit card was used to pay for landing fees and fuel at Nantes. Aircraft Owner/Operator: Not publicly identified but should have been aware of who was flying the aircraft and what it was doing. David Ibbotson: Only known licence/rating PPL. You will notice that there was a lot of arranging without anyone saying who was paid for what. |
S-works :
Until we can make the pilots understand and learn to say NO we are on hiding to nowhere and blaming the regulator for lack of oversight is unfair...... what next : But this accident is not only about the legal aspects of the flight itself. It is even more about flying outside one's license privileges and outside one's competence. Siver light : who is really responsible for this tragedy? Should someone be held to account? |
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10385991)
Here are the various parties Willie McKay: Father of the agent acting for Nantes Football Club contacted David Henderson to book/arrange the flight. Didn’t specify an aircraft but wanted David Henderson as the pilot. Didn’t charge Sala. David Henderson: Commercial Pilot/Charter Broker/Aircraft Manager. Not known who he contacted to arrange the aircraft but arranged for Ibbotson to be the pilot. Has had very well publicised previous linkage to the aircraft. His credit card was used to pay for landing fees and fuel at Nantes. Aircraft Owner/Operator: Not publicly identified but should have been aware of who was flying the aircraft and what it was doing. David Ibbotson: Only known licence/rating PPL. You will notice that there was a lot of arranging without anyone saying who was paid for what. You own a car , I am a good friend of yours and ask you if I can borrow your car for the week end as mine is U/S, and later tell you my son will drive it up and sown to France to pick up someone . You say yes and give me the cars papers and the keys. My son comes to me later and says, I cannot do the trip buy my friend John that you know very well, will do it ; you say Ok , not ideal, but OK... X gets an accident because he drove well above the speed limit and kills someone. If no money changed hands, it is only the driver who is responsible., not the owner of the car, me who arranged the trip, or,my son who was supposed to drive. |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10385992)
S-works :
Spot on ! what next : Absolutely. and I agree that we all ( certainly I) at one point or another in our flying life were more than tempted to cross the line to make " that flight " ..and only our ability (or not) to say No made the difference. Siver light : If ,as all indications so far seem to say, , this was a private flight using a private aircraft , only the Pilot in Command is responsible, no-one else. |
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10386013)
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible. |
Well something did circulate in the media that David Henderson had a conversation on Facebook with David Ibbotson where Ibbotson stated that he was rusty.
Here you have a pilot making quite a worrying admission and another pilot who seems to not take a blind bit of notice to someone saying they are rusty? Henderson should have acted immediately to find a suitable replacement? |
Originally Posted by ATC Watcher
(Post 10386018)
Of course !, but how do you want to prove this if everyone involved ( still alive) says it was a private arrangement and no money was involved ? as I have read and heard so far.
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My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it. A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course. |
Just reading a telegraph article about transfers and tax and a thought comes to mind. It says traditionally football agent fees for representing a player are paid by the club but are a taxable benefit to the player. It says recently (some?) footballers have been ‘representing themselves’ and agents act as ‘consultants’ to the club. This meaning the fees become a business expense and not a benefit. (No benefit in kind, no 40% tax). I wonder what HMRC’s view of this will be when it comes to all the emails, texts, and public statements that’s have been made about who did what and for what benefit. |
Originally Posted by MPN11
(Post 10386033)
My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it. A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course. |
Originally Posted by MPN11
(Post 10386033)
My take is that certain parties dug a hole into which Mr Ibbotson fell, for a variety of possible reasons (over-confidence, over-enthusiasm or even much-needed financial incentive). Whilst it could be argued, quite reasonably, that those certain parties are culpable for digging said hole, it was only Mr Ibbotson who flew into it. A sad story, with many lessons to be hopefully highlighted by AAIB in due course. I would also add that this arrangement (financial or otherwise), would have probably put some quite considerable pressure on Mr. Ibbotson to "get the job done". This is the only reason I can think of why he would have even considered flying outside his licensing priviledges. |
runway30 ... I have no doubt that ‘certain parties’ will come under the spotlight in due course. But sadly Mr Ibbotson was the one who drove into the hole created for him. Webby737 ... acknowledged. |
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10386031)
Because they have left an audit trail with landing fees, fuel and hotel being paid for. There is a narrative being pushed that private pilots can accept expenses for operating commercial flights. They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers. On a US registered aircraft it is even worse, the pilot has to have common purpose with the passengers. This would have meant that Ibbotson also wished to see Sala’s team mates and put Sala’s dog into kennels. He very clearly did not. They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers. |
Originally Posted by Warren Peace
(Post 10386050)
They cannot. They can split expenses equally with their passengers.
Can you explain what that is based on? On the basis that we are talking about the expenses of the flight, direct costs of making the flight can be shared between Pilot & Pax, no requirement for equality in that sharing under UK rules. |
Originally Posted by runway30
(Post 10386031)
Because they have left an audit trail with landing fees, fuel and hotel being paid for. Anyway the AAIB will probably not going to investigate this as it falls outside their level of expertise and it is anyway outside the scope of ICAO Annex 13 , this is for the criminal investigation to do I would say, if there is a criminal investigation.. |
I think I said it before but.....
On the face of forum speculation, there doesn't appear to be a smoking gun. There is, however, a balance of probability that puts a number of people in the spotlight. I personally don't expect any criminal prosecutions for this event, but I fully expect a load of insurance company sponsored ambulance chasers in the civil courts. (Said as someone who occasionally does expert witness work for such occurrences). |
If it is discovered that this is illegal public transport then the illegal operator is also responsible. |
Originally Posted by Daysleeper
(Post 10386052)
Because it's an N reg aircraft and therefore must comply with the US rules.
European and National regulations permit cost sharing as follows:
Direct costs means the costs directly incurred in relation to a flight (e.g. fuel, airfield charges, rental fee for an aircraft). There can be no element of profit. Annual costs which cannot be included in the cost sharing are the cost of keeping, maintaining, insuring and operating the aircraft over a period of one calendar year. There can be no element of profit. Additional guidance
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