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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

Capt Scribble 10th Feb 2019 22:20

Vilters. You might have an aircraft that can fly in upper airspace but the do you have the rating to operate there.

runway30 10th Feb 2019 23:30

Very interesting article about David Mearns and the search for the aircraft.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d...4e160437e71292

RatherBeFlying 11th Feb 2019 01:16

Water temperature is the main factor in whether a body will come to the surface.

Six boys in 1995 stole a couple boats for a joyride in Lake Ontario and have never been found.

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/5...-in-pickering/

jolihokistix 11th Feb 2019 02:12

Surely a record of someone's bank account should show who paid what to whom, in an electronically leaky and intrusive society like ours.

ATC Watcher 11th Feb 2019 05:55

Ant T :

ATCwatcher - A Malibu certainly is a complex aircraft under the FAA definition - "A complex airplane is defined by the United States Federal Aviation Administration as an aircraft that has all of the following: A retractable landing gear, a controllable-pitch propeller, and movable or adjustable flaps."
Ok my bad regarding FAA, obviously 2 different sets of definitions , did not know . I will correct my earlier post . But the quote that started this discussion was taken from EASA regulations on sharing .
The EASA definition of "Complex aircraft" in their regulations is the following :

The term non-complex aircraft refers to aircraft that do not meet any of the criteria for classification as «complex aircraft», which means:
  • they have a certified maximum take-off weight below 5,700 kg and
  • they have a maximum approved passenger seating configuration of 19 and
  • they are certified for operation by only 1 pilot and
  • they are not equipped with jet engines.
Examples of non-complex aircraft include the Pilatus PC 12 and the Cessna Caravan.


DaveReidUK 11th Feb 2019 06:47

As ever with PPRuNe, there is a previous thread on the subject, in this case debating the (various) meanings of "complex single", both in the previous generally-accepted sense of "variable-pitch prop, retractable gear, etc" (still a valid distinction in the CPL training/testing world) and with reference to EASA's somewhat unhelpful hijacking of the term to mean something completely different :O:

https://www.pprune.org/flying-instru...rformance.html

From that thread:


Cobalt is not making it up. This is the meaning of "complex motor-powered aircraft" as defined by EASA in Basic Regulation 3(j).

It is unfortunate that they chose the word complex as it creates confusion with the common understanding of VP+RG+flaps. However it is important to understand the new definition as it has implications on Ptf, maintenance requirements, etc.

Mach Tuck 11th Feb 2019 07:00


Originally Posted by EXDAC (Post 10386184)
Is there any reason to assume that the accident pilot did not have a complex endorsement in his log book? I doubt someone just gave him the keys of the Malibu if he had never flown a complex aircraft before.

Well he’s alleged to have undertaken a revenue flight without a commercial endorsement, a night flight without a night endorsement and an instrument flight without an instrument endorsement so is there any reason to assume he had a complex endorsement? It has also been alleged that he is a very experienced pilot so why wouldn’t someone give him the keys to the Malibu?

arketip 11th Feb 2019 07:43


Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2 (Post 10386274)
If you are doctoring your logbook, then you are committing fraud. When you sign the little bit in the corner saying "true and correct."

Is it mandatory to write in all the hours?

GeeRam 11th Feb 2019 08:16


Originally Posted by GotTheTshirt (Post 10386318)
I have not seen the reason for the delay to the original 0900 flight plan.
A morning departure, I would have thought, would obviously be what Mr Ibbotson would have preferred, so the delay, I would not think, had been his decision

The speculation is the delay was pressumably that Sala hadn't arrived. The question could be how much was Ibbotson being kept in the dark over the prior arrangements?
*IF* the previous text messages between McKay and Sala prior to the outbound flight from Cardiff are indeed true, then Sala was expecting to return in the evening, not in the morning, so why did Ibbotson file the flight plan for the morning.....? Possibly deliberately misled over the arrangements, given the way this thing seems to have been arranged, but then again, we'll probably never know for sure.

oggers 11th Feb 2019 10:13


I can't help but feel sorry for Mr. Ibbotson, whilst I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why...
However, surely the root cause of this accident is the aviation industry...Now, I don't know if Mr. Ibbotson was happy tootling around the skies with a PPL of if he had greater ambitions. Assuming the latter, he would have (understandably) almost taken any opportunity to build up his hours.IMHO, it's the system thats to blame, as far as I'm aware you don't hear of accountants, lawyers, surgeons etc. paying for their training, work experience, place of work etc.

I do not agree. By definition he made this flight in contravention of the system. Most people manage to build their hours without breaking the law. There are always unprofessional types who operate in a culture of non-compliance where they think they can get away with it. We are seeing the consequences of that here.

korrol 11th Feb 2019 11:00

Today's article in The Times referred to by Runway30 is very interesting . What can we make of this sentence ?

"He shows me a sonar image of a cross shape on the sea bed. “Shipwrecks don’t do that — it was the cross of the fuselage and wings.".

....Would that indicate the speed of the aircraft was fairly low when it came into contact with the water?

Webby737 11th Feb 2019 12:04


Originally Posted by oggers (Post 10386713)
I do not agree. By definition he made this flight in contravention of the system. Most people manage to build their hours without breaking the law. There are always unprofessional types who operate in a culture of non-compliance where they think they can get away with it. We are seeing the consequences of that here.

This is why I said "I don't in any way condone his actions of deciding to fly that evening I can sort of understand why"
However I was unaware of his age, it's certainly a bit late in life to pursue a CPL/ATPL which begs the question what was he doing there if it was not for some sort of reward, financial or otherwise ?
Everything in this industry is black and white, either you fly or you don't, it's clearly written in the regulations, MEL, SRM etc.
But as you say, there are always some who will bend/break the rules and think they will get away with it, unfortunately this just leads to more legislation that we who abide by the system have to follow.


runway30 11th Feb 2019 13:14

From the Guardian

‘The footballer Emiliano Sala died of head and trunk injuries when the plane he was in crashed into the English Channel, an inquest has heard.

During a five-minute hearing at Bournemouth town hall in Dorset, it emerged that Sala was formally identified by a fingerprint expert.

The court was told that his body was recovered from international waters off the island of Guernsey.

Senior acting coroner Brendan Allen said that investigations were being carried out by the police, the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) and the Civil Aviation Authority.

Allen said the AAIB inquiry was likely to take between six and 12 months and he adjourned the inquest until 6 November.’

MPN11 11th Feb 2019 14:15


investigations were being carried out by the police, the Air Accidents Investigation Branch (AAIB) and the Civil Aviation Authority.
Interesting. What offence of Police interest would that be, gentlemen?

Cows getting bigger 11th Feb 2019 14:22

I suspect the police are investigating whether an offence may have been committed.

EXDAC 11th Feb 2019 14:22


Originally Posted by Mach Tuck (Post 10386548)
Well he’s alleged to have undertaken a revenue flight without a commercial endorsement, a night flight without a night endorsement and an instrument flight without an instrument endorsement so is there any reason to assume he had a complex endorsement? It has also been alleged that he is a very experienced pilot so why wouldn’t someone give him the keys to the Malibu?

There seems to be some confusion about the meaning of "endorsement". In FAA parlance, a pilot may hold a license with commercial privileges and that license may including an "instrument airplane" rating. The terms "commercial endorsement" and "instrument endorsement" have, to the best of my knowledge, no meaning in the context of an FAA issued pilot license. "Night endorsement" does have meaning and is applicable to a student pilot who has been authorized for solo night flight.

A pilot who has received training for complex (as defined by FAA) aircraft earns no additional rating and there is no change to the pilot's license. The training, and approval, is documented in the pilot's log book by the instructor who gave the training. The log entry is an "endorsement".

five zero by ortac 11th Feb 2019 15:34

Not suggesting that this flight was anything to do with cost-sharing, but having done some searching on the internet today I came up with 13 websites offering to fly you anywhere. None of them were AOC holders. This is just one example.... https://www.flissair.com/book-online...e8y8gK-qviQLCQ

Add to these all the Facebook pages - I'm absolutely shocked. Must be time for a change in the law..

ShropshirePilot 11th Feb 2019 16:16


Originally Posted by five zero by ortac (Post 10386955)
Not suggesting that this flight was anything to do with cost-sharing, but having done some searching on the internet today I came up with 13 websites offering to fly you anywhere. None of them were AOC holders. This is just one example.... https://www.flissair.com/book-online...e8y8gK-qviQLCQ

Add to these all the Facebook pages - I'm absolutely shocked. Must be time for a change in the law..

I'm wondering if the owner of the Navajo knows it appears on a site like that? I have to admit that is quite something to see Flissair's website. I cannot imagine they'd be busy but the point is that they shouldn't be there at all. I certainly wouldn't want to fly with someone I didn't know. It's a shocker!

MPN11 11th Feb 2019 17:08

Just the sort of UK-JER I had vaguely considered in the distant past, before deciding this was NOT the most sensible way to go. From Camberley, a quick run down the M3 to SOU and then a proper airline to JER worked very well for many years ... and cheaper too, it seems!

old-timer 11th Feb 2019 18:13

Good post, very true, the industry is responsible


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