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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

WHBM 30th Oct 2021 21:56

Other key questions.

Who was this Fay Keely, apparently the owner of the aircraft ? Why did they buy it ? Were they current on it ? Was it just for their private use, and if so what records are there of them using it themselves ? The Malibu is a large aircraft for someone unknown to have just for their personal and private use. Were they not equally in it with Henderson ?

Separately, and something I have asked before, why charter in the first place, at considerable cost. There was a commercial KLM connection, Nantes to Amsterdam, and then nicely Amsterdam to Cardiff, at pretty much the same evening times as this charter was operating. If the football player "had to be back" for the following morning, that was the obvious way to go. The cost of even a business class one way ticket would have been a fraction of the charter cost, and much more comfortable and reliable.

DaveReidUK 30th Oct 2021 22:30


Originally Posted by WHBM (Post 11134673)
Who was this Fay Keely, apparently the owner of the aircraft ? Why did they buy it ? Were they current on it ? Was it just for their private use, and if so what records are there of them using it themselves ? The Malibu is a large aircraft for someone unknown to have just for their personal and private use. Were they not equally in it with Henderson ?

There was an extended discussion about ownership of the aircraft earlier in the thread.

wiggy 30th Oct 2021 22:41


Originally Posted by WHBM (Post 11134673)
Other key questions.

Who was this Fay Keely, apparently the owner of the aircraft ? Why did they buy it ? Were they current on it ? Was it just for their private use, and if so what records are there of them using it themselves ? The Malibu is a large aircraft for someone unknown to have just for their personal and private use. Were they not equally in it with Henderson ?

Separately, and something I have asked before, why charter in the first place, at considerable cost. There was a commercial KLM connection, Nantes to Amsterdam, and then nicely Amsterdam to Cardiff, at pretty much the same evening times as this charter was operating. If the football player "had to be back" for the following morning, that was the obvious way to go. The cost of even a business class one way ticket would have been a fraction of the charter cost, and much more comfortable and reliable.

With regard to your second point it would appear the use of a charter, rather than commercial flights, had for some reason become the norm for some involved in this whole sad story..

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-47626855

parkfell 31st Oct 2021 09:02

The Coroner’s Inquest is scheduled for February 2022. I hope that various CAA employees are required to attend where M’Learned Friends, with aviation experience can ask salient questions as the regulations & enforcement. Others need to explain their involvement although I suspect unlike a Public Inquiry the Inquest will confine itself more narrowly.

The second Fatal Accident Inquiry in Scotland I attended, as a witness, concerned a solo student pilot killed. High speed exit out of cloud near Sanqhar, Dumfriesshire.
It would be fair to say the CAA employee as a witness (regulatory rôle) wasn’t exactly looking forward to the witness stand. Verdict: Accidental death, but that didn’t prevent the family pursuing a civil claim at the High Court Edinburgh. The whole experience taught me that you must justify every single step you take when involved in aviation, or for that matter any other activity in life.

happybiker 31st Oct 2021 11:47


Originally Posted by ShyTorque (Post 11134584)
The best witness would be a passenger stepping out of the aircraft. Asked the questions: "Did you pay for that flight and if so, who to and how much?" Could be very revealing.

The CAA regularly used to attend major functions such as race meetings and check flights out; how often is this now done?

At race meetings where the the question was asked by the CAA the answer would often be "what has it got to do with you" or "foxtrot oscar". The participants knew that their activity was outside of the regulations and they would not cooperate.

WHBM 31st Oct 2021 12:54


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 11134697)
With regard to your second point it would appear the use of a charter, rather than commercial flights, had for some reason become the norm for some involved in this whole sad story..

One wonders where the money actually originated.

Pilot and aircraft owner etc paid a fee, but Henderson was apparently making a living out of it as well. McKay paid Henderson, but doesn't sound the sort of character to have paid for it out of his life savings. So who was paying him even more for each of these flights ? Cardiff football club ? Sala himself ? Skimmed off the £15m "transfer fee" ?

Yellow Sun 31st Oct 2021 15:49

Follow the money
 

Originally Posted by WHBM (Post 11134947)
One wonders where the money actually originated.

Pilot and aircraft owner etc paid a fee, but Henderson was apparently making a living out of it as well. McKay paid Henderson, but doesn't sound the sort of character to have paid for it out of his life savings. So who was paying him even more for each of these flights ? Cardiff football club ? Sala himself ? Skimmed off the £15m "transfer fee" ?

Tweaking legislation, ramp checks or hiding behind hedges with a pair of binoculars will never be effective. Asking where the money comes from is another story. HMRC have surprisingly large powers of investigation and given lawful authority to employ them can be highly effective. Having the taxman poking around in your bank accounts is very intrusive, there’s no telling what they might turn up. Cash doesn’t work anymore, it has to be accounted for and if you choose not to answer then it may be seized under the money laundering regulations until a credible explanation is provided. I have a friend who enforces confiscation orders under the Proceeds of Crime Act (POCA) his experience is that career criminals view prison as an occupational hazard, but losing the ill-gotten gains they’ve grifted hard to amass really upsets them.

The only way to deal with the problem is via a multi-agency approach and the tactic of following the money.

YS

SWBKCB 31st Oct 2021 16:20


Originally Posted by WHBM (Post 11134947)
One wonders where the money actually originated.

Pilot and aircraft owner etc paid a fee, but Henderson was apparently making a living out of it as well. McKay paid Henderson, but doesn't sound the sort of character to have paid for it out of his life savings. So who was paying him even more for each of these flights ? Cardiff football club ? Sala himself ? Skimmed off the £15m "transfer fee" ?

Have you seen how much agents make out of a transfer deal??

simmple 31st Oct 2021 20:09

Not trying to defend grey charters but I think there are probably many highly experienced pilots who fly very safely but who have never needed a CPL because they don’t want to earn money from flying.

Agreed as long as they don’t peddle their wares as a professional pilot to an unsuspecting public

parkfell 31st Oct 2021 20:48


Originally Posted by simmple (Post 11135142)
Not trying to defend grey charters but I think there are probably many highly experienced pilots who fly very safely but who have never needed a CPL because they don’t want to earn money from flying.

Agreed as long as they don’t peddle their wares as a professional pilot to an unsuspecting public

A comparison (not exhaustive) of a professional & private pilot:

A professional pilot will get airborne provided it is safe to do so in difficult conditions as invariably they are well versed in operating in such conditions. Six monthly simulator sessions (OPC/LPC) & yearly line check, plus days when the FOI decides to observe from the jump seat. Or occasionally an AAIB inspector observing the operation to gleam more information following an event which has taken their interest.

A PPL/IR although experienced and has demonstrated competency in IFR will probably not get airborne in a maximum crosswind on a horrible night, because (wisely) commercial pressure does not exist. A yearly IR renewal & bi-annual check with a FI.

The professional pilot has far greater scrutiny as to their competency than a PPL.

simmple 31st Oct 2021 20:57


Originally Posted by parkfell (Post 11135155)
A comparison (not exhaustive) of a professional & private pilot:

A professional pilot will get airborne provided it is safe to do so in difficult conditions as invariably they are well versed in operating in such conditions. Six monthly simulator sessions (OPC/LPC) & yearly line check, plus days when the FOI decides to observe from the jump seat. Or occasionally an AAIB inspector observing the operation to gleam more information following an event which has taken their interest.

A PPL/IR although experienced and has demonstrated competency in IFR will probably not get airborne in a maximum crosswind on a horrible night, because (wisely) commercial pressure does not exist. A yearly IR renewal & bi-annual check with a FI.

The professional pilot has far greater scrutiny as to their competency than a PPL.

Back on topic.
The killer of Sala did not have an IR or even a night rating!

I do take your point though.

Skill and legality can be discussed like remain and leave with no definitive answer or should I say no one agreeing

parkfell 1st Nov 2021 09:52


Originally Posted by simmple (Post 11135159)
Back on topic.
The killer of Sala did not have an IR or even a night rating!

I do take your point though.

Skill and legality can be discussed like remain and leave with no definitive answer or should I say no one agreeing

Had it not been for the Carbon Monoxide poisoning, & possible AP intermittent fault, I suspect that there is every likelyhood that
the “Swiss cheese holes accident model” would not have aligned.

Although the pilot did hold a current IR(R) [IMC Rating] which is only valid in UK airspace, his EASA licence was not current, and no night rating.

Sentencing of David Henderson scheduled for 12 November.
Robert Murgatroyd was sentenced to 40 months in 2019.
His three passengers survived.

Jonzarno 1st Nov 2021 10:04


Originally Posted by parkfell (Post 11135343)
Had it not been for the Carbon Monoxide poisoning, & possible AP intermittent fault, I suspect that there is every likelyhood that
the “Swiss cheese holes accident model” would not have aligned.

Although the pilot did hold a current IR(R) [IMC Rating] which is only valid in UK airspace, his EASA licence was not current, and no night rating.

If the passenger had known of the state of the aircraft, the qualifications of the pilot and understood what a grey charter is: would he have gone within a country mile of this journey?

jumpseater 1st Nov 2021 11:05


Originally Posted by parkfell (Post 11135343)
Had it not been for the Carbon Monoxide poisoning, & possible AP intermittent fault, I suspect that there is every likelyhood that
the “Swiss cheese holes accident model” would not have aligned.

.

From the reports of his quality of flying in IMC and his ILS I have my doubts about that. South and West UK had 30KT gusts in rain showers with low cloud TCU on a South Easterly tracking cold front as I recall, a challenging set of weather for a fully ‘current’ crew regardless of CPL or PPL with all the ticks in the right boxes.

We’ll never know but there’s still more than enough holes to perfectly align for an incident on this trip with the known issues without any CO issues that may have contributed.

jumpseater 1st Nov 2021 11:15


Originally Posted by Jonzarno (Post 11135353)
If the passenger had known of the state of the aircraft, the qualifications of the pilot and understood what a grey charter is: would he have gone within a country mile of this journey?

Interesting one.
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal.

If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe?

ak7274 1st Nov 2021 11:46

I would suggest that if there was the will to stop bent charters, it could be stopped.
Perhaps some strong lobbying? I'm sure a lot of pilots on here know what, when and who, but don't like the idea of "grassing" Suggestions?

parkfell 1st Nov 2021 12:15


Originally Posted by Jonzarno (Post 11135353)
If the passenger had known of the state of the aircraft, the qualifications of the pilot and understood what a grey charter is: would he have gone within a country mile of this journey?

The same question might be asked of the football agents who organised the trip; they certainly know now.
There is no shade of white in these “grey charters”. They are unlawful.

In the short term, the CAA need better sources of information, a ‘CRIMESTOPPERS’ number ( an email address exists) and forensic accountants.

In the long term until the politicians “come on board” not a lot will change.
Beef up the legislation & penalties on illegal charters.
Some of the wording in Terrorism Acts might be a useful starting point where even possibly knowing and not reporting suspicions is an offence [‘light blue touch paper and retire’ moment on my part]

Jonzarno 1st Nov 2021 12:35


Originally Posted by jumpseater (Post 11135395)
Interesting one.
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal.

If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe?

I really wish I could say you are wrong about this but you are quite right and it is entirely possible that Mr Sala could have followed that logic. It’s a sobering lesson for anyone in a similar position.

Of course it doesn’t get past my earlier assertion that if I fly friends for free on my PPL/IR it doesn’t make me or them any safer than if I was charging them for the flight: same pilot, same aircraft, same risks. FTAOD that’s not intended as any kind of defence for grey charters!

biscuit74 1st Nov 2021 13:05

" Some of the wording in Terrorism Acts might be a useful starting point where even possibly knowing and not reporting suspicions is an offence [‘light blue touch paper and retire’ moment on my part] "

Now that could be 'challenging' to say the least ! I can see all sorts of issues around 'knowing'. and proof. Certainly encouraging a reporting cultures in areas where there is a clear safety element might be feasible, though I feel the 'authorities' have already shot themselves in the foot with their rather silly campaign to encourage us to shop anyone who we think may be illegally transporting immigrants or drugs. Apart from it being a rather nasty 'shop your neighbour' idea, the folk I saw explaining this showed considerable ignorance of flight aircraft flying and took no interest whatever in real aircraft crime - such as the thefts of Rotax engines from hangars across the country. Clearly not part of their tasks and targets!

So I suspect many pilots would simply ignore all this. Not worth the hassle and aggro.

I entirely agree; some serious forensic accounting would be a great help, in this and many other areas. Far too many dubious activities in the UK are hidden away; I suspect many accountants and auditors are well aware of where the dodge parts are - some useful tactical blindness occurs no doubt !

wiggy 1st Nov 2021 13:33


Originally Posted by jumpseater (Post 11135395)
Interesting one.
Sala was likely under ‘commercial pressure’ too. He was due in Cardiff for his first training session on a multi million pound deal. It’s reasonable to assume he wouldn’t want to let down everyone in the football side of the chain, particularly as the trip was a private one to say goodbye to previous Nantes players, rather than part of the commercial deal.

If he knew might he have thought ok it’s a bit poor, but it got me here ok and it’s only two hours and I need to be in Cardiff early tomorrow morning. Would the man on the street roll the dice as flying is so safe?


Like jonzarno I suspect that sort of thinking may well have entered into Sala’s decision making..


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