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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

radiosutch 22nd Jan 2019 19:38


Originally Posted by OPENDOOR (Post 10367594)
I'd have thought ADS-B might have helped in this case.

Neither PF or FR24 tracked it. Strange, but that's what they say as high enough for MLAT.

DaveReidUK 22nd Jan 2019 19:41


Originally Posted by radiosutch (Post 10367597)
Neither PF or FR24 tracked it.

We don't know that FR24 didn't track it.

It may well have a voluntary agreement, as it does with many corporate/private aircraft owners, not to publish flight details.

lilflyboy262...2 22nd Jan 2019 19:48


Originally Posted by BluSdUp (Post 10367585)
I also find it strange that the search was called off in the early critical phase.
Anyway
I hope we can learn a thing or two from this tragic accident.
Nr 1 would be always carry an ELT!

The weather was absolutely miserable at around 0200 local time. They were up early again this morning looking for them and were still looking for them at around 1430 LCT when we departed.
Weather is getting worse again, it's currently snowing in London and moving that way.

Russell Gulch 22nd Jan 2019 20:00


Originally Posted by Above The Clouds (Post 10367563)
Do N Reg aircraft not have ELT's built into the airframe that activate with contact on water or an impact ?

Impact only (in the case of ELT). They are not water acticated The transmisssions dont work to well if the aircraft then sinks :sad:

Russ

Luc Lion 22nd Jan 2019 20:10

Some facts about N264DB:
- there is one photograph of it on Airliners from July 4, 2010. It shows it was equipped (in 2010) with de-ice boots and heating propeller pads.
Of course, this equipment might have been unserviceable on January 21th, 2019.
- the cruise ceiling of a PA-46-310P is 25,000 ft. At that altitude, it still has a ROC between 400 and 500 fpm but 25,000 ft is the limit dictated by the pressurisation system.

Luc Lion 22nd Jan 2019 20:39

TAF and METAR for Cardiff and Jersey were:

EGFF 211644Z 2116/2212 22012KT 9999 SCT035 TEMPO 2116/2120 7000 -RA TEMPO
2120/2124 23016G26KT 6000 RA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO 2120/2124 27020G30KT 4000 RA
BKN006 BECMG 2121/2124 28012KT TEMPO 2208/2212 6000 SHRA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO
2208/2210 3000 SHRA SHRASN BKN008 PROB30 TEMPO 2210/2212 SHRA TSGS BKN008

EGFF 211820Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 -RA BKN021 OVC034 07/05 Q1014
EGFF 211850Z AUTO 23012KT 9999 -RA BKN020 BKN026 OVC045 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211920Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 BKN033 BKN044 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211950Z AUTO 22013KT 9999 BKN033 07/05 Q1012
EGFF 212020Z AUTO 22012KT 9999 SCT026 BKN034 07/05 Q1011
EGFF 212050Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 BKN023/// BKN039/// //////TCU 07/05 Q1010
EGFF 212120Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 -RA SCT024 BKN033 BKN040 07/05 Q1009
EGFF 212150Z AUTO 21012KT 6000 -RA BKN020/// OVC026/// //////TCU 07/06 Q1008

EGJJ 211707Z 2118/2203 20010KT 9999 FEW015 BKN030 TEMPO 2118/2124 -RA BKN015
PROB30 TEMPO 2118/2121 7000 SHRA BKN012 BECMG 2121/2123 22020KT BECMG 2202/2203
31017KT NSW SCT015

EGJJ 211820Z 22010KT 9999 SCT014 SCT025 BKN040 06/04 Q1019
EGJJ 211850Z 22011KT 9999 FEW018 SCT021 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211920Z 22011KT 9999 FEW016 SCT018 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211950Z 22012KT 9999 FEW018 SCT020 06/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212020Z 22013KT 9999 R26/1400 SCT014 07/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212050Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1200 R26/1200 BR SCT014/// SCT018/// BKN033///
07/05 Q1016
EGJJ 212120Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1400 FEW013/// OVC028/// 07/05 Q1016 RERA
EGJJ 212150Z AUTO 21015KT 9999 1400 FEW014/// SCT017/// BKN032/// 07/05 Q1015
RERA

helimutt 22nd Jan 2019 21:08


Originally Posted by lilflyboy262...2 (Post 10367612)
The weather was absolutely miserable at around 0200 local time. They were up early again this morning looking for them and were still looking for them at around 1430 LCT when we departed.
Weather is getting worse again, it's currently snowing in London and moving that way.

A number of assets were utilised today, and they were stood down at approx 17:00 and the wind increased over the day. The earlier tasked assets involved in the search had been stood down in the early hours, as it would have been non-productive with the deteriorating conditions.

Unfortunately there was nothing found during today's search, and I'm not so sure the reports of red flares relate to the actual aircraft itself, and were more likely dropped by assets during the search.

strake 22nd Jan 2019 21:16


It may well have a voluntary agreement, as it does with many corporate/private aircraft owners, not to publish flight details.
FR24 didn't track it because, 'the transponder wasn't on or it was very old'.
Source: FR24

NAROBS 22nd Jan 2019 21:19


Originally Posted by OPENDOOR (Post 10367594)
I'd have thought ADS-B might have helped in this case.

Isn't this machine declared on FR as having mode S which is spec'd to transmit every 25 ft change inaltitude and won't the French Primary radar be tracking everything that moves within 25 miles of Cap de la Hague nucleur asset ?

N

ETOPS 22nd Jan 2019 21:28

Seems the questions are getting answered..

Experienced pilot - named in some media.
PA46-310P from 1984 owned under the usual UK trustee system.
"old" transponder meaning Mode C?

Auxtank 22nd Jan 2019 21:53

God Damn Channel Islands - with it's own weather.
I've flown in there dozens of times and one minute you can count every star in the sky and the next - you can't see the end of the temp probe out the front of the windscreen.

DaveReidUK 22nd Jan 2019 22:32


Originally Posted by NAROBS (Post 10367696)
Isn't this machine declared on FR as having mode S which is spec'd to transmit every 25 ft change inaltitude and won't the French Primary radar be tracking everything that moves within 25 miles of Cap de la Hague nucleur asset ?

The question of whether it was equipped with Mode S ELS/EHS (25' altitude resolution) or simply Mode C (100') is largely immaterial. As a 35-year-old privately-owned aircraft it almost certainly didn't have ADS-B, which means that it would only have transmitted altitude when interrogated by ground radar.

WHBM 22nd Jan 2019 22:40

Single engine, winter, snow forecast, night, possibly chartered from the low bidder. Prominent entertainer having the arrangements made for them.

Did we learn nothing from Buddy Holly ?

er340790 22nd Jan 2019 22:56

Aside from the human tragedy, I'd be interested in knowing whether Cardiff FC had organized life insurance on their 15m asset.

Even so, many life policies specifically exclude deaths in non-commercial or GA aircraft.

A financial loss on that scale could ultimately threaten the future of the entire club.

AN2 Driver 22nd Jan 2019 23:06


Originally Posted by kitchensinkrate (Post 10367505)
Saturday, January 19, 2019
Log Saturday 19/01/2019
Cardiff IAP Runway in use 12

Visitors
Landing at 11:44 is "N264DB" PA-46-310P Malibu N264DB ..parking on the GA apron ..departed at 12:15 to Guernsey

Departed to Guernsey?

If that is the case and they wanted to land there, this would explain the altitude.

DaveReidUK 22nd Jan 2019 23:15


Originally Posted by AN2 Driver (Post 10367801)
Departed to Guernsey?

If that is the case and they wanted to land there, this would explain the altitude.

That was the Saturday Cardiff to Nantes flight, via Guernsey.

It would only explain the low altitude on yesterday's flight if they had also planned to stop there on the return. We don't know that.

meleagertoo 22nd Jan 2019 23:16


Originally Posted by WHBM (Post 10367775)
Single engine, winter, snow forecast, night, possibly chartered from the low bidder.

Chartered? On the N reg?

Wouldn't be the least but surprised if some shenanigan like this was involved - but if so the CAA need to come down on the perpetrators like a ton of hot bricks.
We hear far too much of this sort of chicanery.
Remember the Dettori near wipeout at Doncaster(?) racecourse last year? Yet another N reg being flown irresponsibly & dangerously in UK airspace with high value clients on board. "Lent" by friends was it? I'll bet.

Fostex 22nd Jan 2019 23:30

The great grey-area, dry lease hire... to quote a website offering such a service.

"All hires are on a “dry” basis, leaving customers free to organise their own flights and supply their own pilots. This makes the service very cost effective and flexible as overheads are kept to a minimum."

It also nicely sidesteps the reason why AOCs were created, SAFETY!

Edddrewre 22nd Jan 2019 23:32


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10367290)
Unlikely to have been G-regd. There is only one, privately-owned, P46T on the UK register.

maybe coincidence but there is a pa46 stationed at Swansea with N Reg



Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10367417)
Sala was reportedly making a return/farewell visit to Nantes, having signed the transfer deal in Cardiff on Saturday 19th.

It may of course be coincidence, but Malibu N264DB was noted departing Rhoose on Saturday morning, flightplanned to Guernsey.

It's an entry-level, piston-powered Malibu 310P (Continental TSIO-520).


if the aircraft raft started in South Wales - I know there is an N reg in the hangar at Swansea - I have a photo of it. Not the same as the Norfolk pa46



Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10367578)
Actually there are a couple of dozen Malibus registered to SAC.

But I'm not sure what the relevance of those are, given that they all likely belong to different owners, and AFAIK none has been noted at Cardiff recently (apart from N264DB).

the above mentioned aircraft is in a hangar in Swansea ... 20 minutes from Cardiff.

I have a photo of it; I always recognise a Malibu - it has that registration



runway30 22nd Jan 2019 23:46


Originally Posted by er340790 (Post 10367795)
Aside from the human tragedy, I'd be interested in knowing whether Cardiff FC had organized life insurance on their 15m asset.

Even so, many life policies specifically exclude deaths in non-commercial or GA aircraft.

A financial loss on that scale could ultimately threaten the future of the entire club.

the Insured Person engaging in any form of air travel, unless travelling as a fare-paying passenger in an aircraft which is provided and operated by an airline or air charter company which must be licensed for this;

I think you will find that this is a fairly standard exclusion in a professional footballer insurance policy.

Whatever were they thinking!!!!?


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