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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

CAP A330 23rd Jan 2019 10:46

Whatever happened, I hope the pilot took the necessary precautions and did not treat it as a 'hop' over the channel.

skyrangerpro 23rd Jan 2019 10:46

sea is bitterly, bitterly cold this time of year. Terrible news.

Right Way Up 23rd Jan 2019 11:02


How would a football agent in France find an aircraft at Gamston then hire a pilot to fly it?
Even taking that into account it is probably more plausible than either Cardiff or the player himself.

The Old Fat One 23rd Jan 2019 11:05


I hope the pilot took the necessary precautions and did not treat it as a 'hop' over the channel.
As an ex RAF sea survival instructor (at Sqn level) I have posted on this subject several times in the past.

The only real precaution you can take is to have two engines. If the single fan stops when you over open ocean (Newton's Law of Universal Gravitation applies) and even if you manage to carry out a decent ditching (or water landing as we seem to call it) you chances are slim unless:

1. You have all the necessary survival gear
AND 2. you have been trained too use it in realistic conditions (realistic conditions = in the sea, not in a swimming pool)

It is the bit in bold that most people just don't get. And when it comes to discussing this with armchair experts, especially pilots that expound a view without ever having done real training, I always say this. If you haven't been chucked into a cold, dark, stormy sea from height at at least 20 miles per hour, then listen and learn from those who have.

And for the record, I understand and agree with those who aware of this and are still happy to transit single engine over the ocean. Some folk weigh life experience versus risk and embrace it. I do so myself as most of my hill-walking is solo. IMHO the equation alters however, when you take responsibility for the welfare of one or more other human beings.

The vast majority of survivable ditchings feature most of the following criteria:

Daylight
Flat/calm water
very close to land or a surface vessel
warm or mild weather/water
good drills
good training
good kit

Fly safe all.

sellbydate 23rd Jan 2019 11:20

For clarification this was a 1984 piston-engined Malibu, not a turbine one, with a TSIO-520-BE Lycoming engine

BigFrank 23rd Jan 2019 11:26

Accident investigation and/or "enforcement" of rules
 
I have noticed one question on this matter and one reply, to the effect that it is not a UK issue.

I do not know.

However, the issue of cross-border enforcement (or more accurately non-enforcement?) of rules [including the black-holes relating to non-EU administrations within the broad EU geographical area] and the consequences reminds me of the Cork accident, now about 5 years ago. Early February, I seem to remember.

Has there been any progress in enforcing the recommendations of that particular Irish based investigation?

Arkroyal 23rd Jan 2019 11:29

Well said Old Fat Crab.

Having done the same job in the RN, my first reaction to this sad event was absolute horror that anyone would entrust their lives to as risky an adventure as this.
I say 'adventure' because that is the word used by the gentleman in the BBC video about ferry flying. Whether he has any connection to this remains to be seen.
Indulging in risk for oneself is something we all do after weighing up how much of it we're prepared to take. To involve someone else who is totally ignorant of the risk and unable to make an informed choice in such a decision is unforgivable.

Hopefully lessons will be learnt and regulation tightened up, in our usual 'stable door' way. But as someone said earlier, we appear to have learnt nothing from Buddy Holly!

Mike Flynn 23rd Jan 2019 11:32

I agree but the lovely warm cabin and glowing panel lights give a sense of detachment from reality.

I guess the experience of having been lucky over the years also adds to the feeling that the inevitable might never happen.

The Old Fat One 23rd Jan 2019 11:33

I've bumped this...probably my most valuable contribution to pprune, if anybody is interested

https://www.pprune.org/private-flyin...-survival.html

Old Fat Crab...made I chuckle :)

Nige321 23rd Jan 2019 11:38


So who is leading on the Accident Investigation on this - nothing from the AAIB.

Originally Posted by AndoniP (Post 10368162)
not under their jurisdiction I believe.

Yes it is - email just received from the AAIB...

On Monday night, a US-registered Piper PA-46-310P Malibu aircraft (registration N264DB) was lost from radar north of Guernsey. The aircraft was en route from Nantes, France to Cardiff, United Kingdom, with one pilot and one passenger on board.In accordance with international protocols, the AAIB is investigating the loss of the aircraft. Since Tuesday morning, we have been working closely with international authorities including the US National Transportation Safety Board, the Bureau d’Enquêtes & d’Analyses (BEA) in France and the Junta de Investigación de Accidentes de Aviación Civil (JIACC) in Argentina.We will be gathering all the available evidence to conduct a thorough investigation. However, if the aircraft is not found it is likely to limit the scope of the investigation.




radiosutch 23rd Jan 2019 11:47


Originally Posted by Clare Prop (Post 10368222)
I spent a few years flying VFR around the Channel Islands, the weather can change very quickly and there are some very strong sea currents around Alderney, so even if they got into a life raft they would still be in real trouble. How sad for all involved.

Could have been a special VFR clearance, very common in the CI control zone

radiosutch 23rd Jan 2019 11:49


Originally Posted by Nige321 (Post 10368305)
Yes it is - email just received from the AAIB...

The formality is I believe the Baliff invites the AAIB to take over

Davef68 23rd Jan 2019 11:49


Originally Posted by Chris Kebab (Post 10368137)
So who is leading on the Accident Investigation on this - nothing from the AAIB.


https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...ircraft-n264db

ChickenHouse 23rd Jan 2019 11:55


Originally Posted by DaveReidUK (Post 10367605)
We don't know that FR24 didn't track it.

It may well have a voluntary agreement, as it does with many corporate/private aircraft owners, not to publish flight details.

It is highly likely they did not track it. Yes, there are ways to get you off the radar of these private spy organizations, but if you agree with them, they only hid the aircraft information. I do have such agreement and FR24 does show a generic aircraft symbol without any further information, but does show it. Even further, also the other spy operations around did not record anything, so maybe they flew transponder off?

Mike Flynn 23rd Jan 2019 11:58

Press reporting...


Cardiff City's chairman Mehmet Dalman has revealed that their new star, just signed for £15million from FC Nantes, turned down a commercial flight from Paris and booked the private plane himself.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ling-hope.html

My only experience of the Malibu has been a couple of front seat trips in the turbine version which flys like a pocket rocket.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune....024bb684a.jpeg


ChickenHouse 23rd Jan 2019 11:59


Originally Posted by Fostex (Post 10367839)
Agree, it is just a matter of time before Wingly claims it's first victim.

Interestingly, my insurance policy explicitly forbids Wingly style flights - I wonder how many people are offering Wingly flights in aircraft for which this is the case.

Many ... 10chars

EDMJ 23rd Jan 2019 12:11


Originally Posted by Mike Flynn (Post 10368319)

"booked the private plane himself" is somewhat in contrast to other press reports according to which the aircraft is believed to have been owned by an agent involved in the transfer:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/footb...-willie-mckay/

helimutt 23rd Jan 2019 12:16


Originally Posted by ChickenHouse (Post 10368316)
It is highly likely they did not track it. Yes, there are ways to get you off the radar of these private spy organizations, but if you agree with them, they only hid the aircraft information. I do have such agreement and FR24 does show a generic aircraft symbol without any further information, but does show it. Even further, also the other spy operations around did not record anything, so maybe they flew transponder off?

So, you think they flew transponder on until they decided to descend from 5000', then switched it off? They were being tracked on radar and they lost contact at around 2300' from what I gather.

The weather and seas around Casquets that evening weren't favourable. The next day the sea was still running probably 1-2m in places, with a strong wind. It has been cold in the Channel Islands the last few days, and yes, the weather can change very quickly down there. If the weather isn't good enough for VFR, without going IFR you may be given Special VFR in the Zone. The whole idea of flying over the channel at night, in winter, in icing conditions, in an old single, without lifejackets (unconfirmed) and no goon suits (unconfirmed), why would you even consider it? Ok if you wish to take the risk yourself, but to put the life of others at risk?


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