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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

Jonzarno 24th Oct 2021 23:00

Yes Mike, but whilst I agree entirely with all you say about the legality of the flight: the state of registration of the aircraft has no bearing whatever on what went wrong.

There are hundreds of UK based N reg aircraft operating quite safely and legally, equally I am quite sure that a good share of the illegal grey charter market is flown in G reg aircraft.

It’s the activity that needs to be stopped and you won’t stop it by forcing pilots to re-register all N reg aircraft.


Yellow Sun 25th Oct 2021 16:05


Originally Posted by jumpseater (Post 11130483)
Bearing in mind the potential for sub judice discussion here, Wales On Line’s reporter’s are picking out some very salient elements of the trial. Whichever way the jury goes, there’s going to be plenty of WTF? discussion material afterwards….

Read from the bottom upward.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trial-21887929

This is one of the most thorough pieces of court reporting I have seen in a very long time. If you haven't time to read the whole thing, I suggest that you read the judge's outline of the basic aspects of the case and the guidance given to the jury as "The "route to a verdict"", which I have quoted below:


The 'route to verdict'

Mr Justice Foxton reads out from a document provided to the jury called the route to verdict.

The document states:

1.
  • Are you sure the flights did not have the required authorisation or permission
  • Are you sure the pilot David Ibbotson did not have a commercial pilots licence
  • Are you sure David Ibbotson’s rating to fly N264DB expired in November 2018
  • Are you sure bad weather was forecast and David Ibbotson was not confident to fly in such weather
If you are sure of any of these matters, proceed to question two.

2.
  • Are you sure that the relevant matters individually or in combination gave rise to a real risk to N264DB which could not be safely ignored.
  • If you are not sure of these matters you should find the defendant not guilty.
If you are sure, proceed to question three

3.
  • Are you sure that in organising the flights in circumstances which there was a real risk to the safety of N264DB which could not be safely ignored, firstly that the defendant was aware of that risk. If sure, you should find the defendant guilty. If you are not sure, you should move to part two.
  • If you are sure he failed to show such care or skill that a person in that situation should exercise, you should find the defendant guilty.
If you are not sure, find the defendant not guilty.
YS

Hipper 25th Oct 2021 16:35

I agree. Thanks for posting jumpseater.

This court case though is not about the cause of the crash, which seems to be some mechanical issue that led to carbon monoxide poisoning. But for that, the flight would likely have been successful, there would be no court case and we would not be here discussing it.




jumpseater 25th Oct 2021 17:38

Based on what we know from the court reports of the pilots qualifications and ‘currency’ I have my doubts as to whether there would have been a happy ending at Cardiff. If the decision making process/mindset was flawed enough to depart, would it have altered if faced with a divert requirement with the forecast weather and having to make an instrument approach in it.

The South and West weather that night was pretty poor across the board so a ‘clear’ airport may not have been available. I can’t recall from the aaib report the ‘known’ fuel on board and what divert alternates that may have allowed.


Originally Posted by Luc Lion (Post 10367657)
TAF and METAR for Cardiff and Jersey were:

EGFF 211644Z 2116/2212 22012KT 9999 SCT035 TEMPO 2116/2120 7000 -RA TEMPO
2120/2124 23016G26KT 6000 RA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO 2120/2124 27020G30KT 4000 RA
BKN006 BECMG 2121/2124 28012KT TEMPO 2208/2212 6000 SHRA BKN010 PROB30 TEMPO
2208/2210 3000 SHRA SHRASN BKN008 PROB30 TEMPO 2210/2212 SHRA TSGS BKN008

EGFF 211820Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 -RA BKN021 OVC034 07/05 Q1014
EGFF 211850Z AUTO 23012KT 9999 -RA BKN020 BKN026 OVC045 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211920Z AUTO 22011KT 9999 BKN033 BKN044 07/05 Q1013
EGFF 211950Z AUTO 22013KT 9999 BKN033 07/05 Q1012
EGFF 212020Z AUTO 22012KT 9999 SCT026 BKN034 07/05 Q1011
EGFF 212050Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 BKN023/// BKN039/// //////TCU 07/05 Q1010
EGFF 212120Z AUTO 20012KT 9999 -RA SCT024 BKN033 BKN040 07/05 Q1009
EGFF 212150Z AUTO 21012KT 6000 -RA BKN020/// OVC026/// //////TCU 07/06 Q1008

EGJJ 211707Z 2118/2203 20010KT 9999 FEW015 BKN030 TEMPO 2118/2124 -RA BKN015
PROB30 TEMPO 2118/2121 7000 SHRA BKN012 BECMG 2121/2123 22020KT BECMG 2202/2203
31017KT NSW SCT015

EGJJ 211820Z 22010KT 9999 SCT014 SCT025 BKN040 06/04 Q1019
EGJJ 211850Z 22011KT 9999 FEW018 SCT021 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211920Z 22011KT 9999 FEW016 SCT018 07/04 Q1018
EGJJ 211950Z 22012KT 9999 FEW018 SCT020 06/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212020Z 22013KT 9999 R26/1400 SCT014 07/04 Q1017
EGJJ 212050Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1200 R26/1200 BR SCT014/// SCT018/// BKN033///
07/05 Q1016
EGJJ 212120Z AUTO 22015KT 9999 1400 FEW013/// OVC028/// 07/05 Q1016 RERA
EGJJ 212150Z AUTO 21015KT 9999 1400 FEW014/// SCT017/// BKN032/// 07/05 Q1015
RERA


Mike Flynn 25th Oct 2021 19:27


Originally Posted by Jonzarno (Post 11131771)
Yes Mike, but whilst I agree entirely with all you say about the legality of the flight: the state of registration of the aircraft has no bearing whatever on what went wrong.

There are hundreds of UK based N reg aircraft operating quite safely and legally, equally I am quite sure that a good share of the illegal grey charter market is flown in G reg aircraft.

It’s the activity that needs to be stopped and you won’t stop it by forcing pilots to re-register all N reg aircraft.

Perhaps the question about why private aircraft operators choose the N reg option should be addressed to Grant Shapps? There is clearly a problem with the paperwork and over legislation in the UK.

I have a friend who has over 9000 hours and has been an instructor in Vancouver for many years. However at the age of 67 and wanting to return to the UK where he was born and work part time as a flying instructor he finds the financial barrier of around £8k to get an instructor rating not worth the return.

So he finds it more rewarding to fly back to Canada for a couple of months and instruct on floats and wheels while we lose his skills .

Who on earth would spend £8k for an instructor rating in the UK when the return on capital is abysmal?

Jonzarno 25th Oct 2021 22:20

I agree: but it’s still not a reason to force hundreds of safe, competent and legal aircraft owners to jump through hoops far more expensive than that to move from the N to the G register.

Brian Abraham 26th Oct 2021 06:43

The FAA is having enough troubles of its own with grey charter in the US, changing registrations won't solve the problem.

runway30 26th Oct 2021 07:10

When we are allowed to have the post match punditry, apologies for the analogy, we might discuss the questions that weren't asked as well as the ones that were asked.

At the moment I am puzzled as to why the judge wants the jury to consider whether Ibbotson was a 'confident' pilot rather than whether he was a competent one?

jumpseater 26th Oct 2021 09:35


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 11132339)

At the moment I am puzzled as to why the judge wants the jury to consider whether Ibbotson was a 'confident' pilot rather than whether he was a competent one?

They’re linked but not the same thing.

I’m confident I can drive my car in snow and ice, I’ve no formal training in it, and very rarely done it.

Timmy Tomkins 26th Oct 2021 10:38


Originally Posted by Mike Flynn (Post 11132152)
Perhaps the question about why private aircraft operators choose the N reg option should be addressed to Grant Shapps? There is clearly a problem with the paperwork and over legislation in the UK.

Grant Shapps himself has an N reg aircraft!

ShyTorque 26th Oct 2021 18:09


Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins (Post 11132459)
Grant Shapps himself has an N reg aircraft!

I doubt he’s using it for illegal charter work, though.

WHBM 26th Oct 2021 21:30


Originally Posted by Timmy Tomkins (Post 11132459)
Grant Shapps himself has an N reg aircraft!

Although nothing to do with the Sala case, it really doesn't send a good message that the secretary responsible for the CAA registers his own PA-32R in the USA. Perhaps the chairman of the CAA would like to comment why people do it.

runway30 27th Oct 2021 10:38

The jury has now retired to consider their verdict.

alfaman 27th Oct 2021 20:01


Originally Posted by WHBM (Post 11132727)
Although nothing to do with the Sala case, it really doesn't send a good message that the secretary responsible for the CAA registers his own PA-32R in the USA. Perhaps the chairman of the CAA would like to comment why people do it.

I struggle with the concept a bit: if there are, for example, PA-32Rs on the UK register anyway what's the point of not transferring a US aircraft across when it gets here? Is it purely the cost of reregistering?

Grummaniser 27th Oct 2021 21:44


Originally Posted by alfaman (Post 11133171)
I struggle with the concept a bit: if there are, for example, PA-32Rs on the UK register anyway what's the point of not transferring a US aircraft across when it gets here? Is it purely the cost of reregistering?

It's a long time since I shared an N reg in the UK but IIRC the maintenance regime is a lot less taxing. In particular I think the owner can do more unsupervised maintenance than on the G register.

DaveReidUK 27th Oct 2021 23:14

It's also a lot cheaper for an individual to get an FAA licence than an EASA (sorry, CAA) one.

alfaman 28th Oct 2021 10:33

Thanks both: so it's just about saving money: not sure I'd want to fly in an aircraft Mr Shapps had been self spannering...

jumpseater 28th Oct 2021 12:00

Guilty
 
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trial-21887929

runway30 28th Oct 2021 12:02

Now we can all talk about it.

Mike Flynn 28th Oct 2021 13:31


Originally Posted by runway30 (Post 11133447)
Now we can all talk about it.

I think it has all been said in the comments leading up to this verdict.

Henderson was clearly a rogue operator who wanted to blame everyone but himself for this tragedy. There will always be those who want to take advantage of free or paid flying without the necessary qualifications and sadly the pilot was in that category.

Family statement

Daniel Machover, of Hickman & Rose solicitors, said: “Mr Henderson’s convictions are welcome and we hope the CAA will ensure that illegal flights of this kind are stopped. The actions of David Henderson are only one piece in the puzzle of how the plane David Ibbotson was illegally flying came to crash into the sea on 21 January 2019.

“We still do not know the key information about the maintenance history of the aircraft and all the factors behind the carbon monoxide poisoning revealed in August 2019 by AAIB.

“The answers to these questions can only be properly established at Emiliano’s inquest, which is due to start in February next year.

“The Sala family fervently hope that everyone involved in the inquest will provide full disclosure of material without further delay, including Piper Aircraft Inc and the AAIB. This should ensure that the inquest can fulfil its function of fully and fearlessly examining the evidence so that all the facts emerge. Only if that happens will Emiliano’s family finally know the truth about this tragedy enabling all the lessons to be learned, so that no family goes through a similar preventable death.”


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