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ShyTorque 4th Nov 2021 15:05


Originally Posted by Jonzarno (Post 11136860)
No argument from me on that! What’s even more painful is that he was clearly frightened yet continued to trust both pilot and aircraft.

That is a strong argument for intensifying enforcement against grey charters.

Yes, The whole point of the AOC legislation is that passengers are provided protection via legislation. Those who circumvent that safety protection system are criminals, accidents or not.

Yellow Sun 4th Nov 2021 18:19


Originally Posted by Jonzarno (Post 11136860)
No argument from me on that! What’s even more painful is that he was clearly frightened yet continued to trust both pilot and aircraft.

That is a strong argument for intensifying enforcement against grey charters.

I have said this earlier and make no apology for repeating it but it’s not the CAA’s job to catch these people, the onus is on the industry. I am currently reading He was the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) regional manager who played a major role in bring the perpetrators of the Rochdale child abuse case to court. When he tried to explain to the community from which most of those convicted came that they must play a part in preventing similar things happening in future he ran into the attitude that “It’s not up to us, it’s the job of the police” This attitude was due in part at least to a distrust of the police, not dissimilar to that expressed in some posts here in respect of the CAA. He had to explain that unless the community played its part, prevention and prosecution was much more difficult. The same principles apply to “grey charters “, everyone knows but no one (very few) are prepared to play an active role in stopping it because it’s the CAA’s job!

Effective enforcement will only be possible if people are prepared to report what they see, hear and otherwise become aware of and then ultimately, be prepared to appear in court and give evidence. Just complaining that “They should do something about it” or “There should be a law against it” or the ultimate excuse for inaction “Is there a petition I can sign” just will not cut it.

YS

Maoraigh1 4th Nov 2021 20:24

"I have said this earlier and make no apology for repeating it but it’s not the CAA’s job to catch these people, the onus is on the industry."
That would be crazy. It isn't the situation in other forms of transport. Roadside checks on commercial vehicles, and port checks on shipping, both for many years now. Perhaps the CAA need Police backup when checking, as with road transport. At least in the UK.

MacLaren1 5th Nov 2021 15:51

Surely...
 
Hi all

I'm not a commercial pilot (but ex senior airline man with hundreds of hours in single engine aircraft and gliders).

..But surely the point is simply this:

Commercial licences are there for a reason - they indicate to the passenger that a pilot has undergone a higher level of training, so the passenger can choose to make that flight or not.

It's why I – boarding any commercial flight – don't need to ask the pilot if his actual profession is plumbing.

jumpseater 5th Nov 2021 18:37


Originally Posted by MacLaren1 (Post 11137723)
Hi all

I'm not a commercial pilot (but ex senior airline man with hundreds of hours in single engine aircraft and gliders).

..But surely the point is simply this:

Commercial licences are there for a reason - they indicate to the passenger that a pilot has undergone a higher level of training, so the passenger can choose to make that flight or not.

It's why I – boarding any commercial flight – don't need to ask the pilot if his actual profession is plumbing.

No it’s not that simple which is why Emiliano Sala is dead.
Example:
You have a special birthday treat sightseeing flight arranged for you and paid for by a friend, in an ‘executive’ light aircraft. You turn up and the neatly turned out pilot has four stripes on his shoulders, and the aircraft Navajo (for example) is clean and tidy.

How do you know it’s being run with professional, appropriate licensing?

MacLaren1 5th Nov 2021 18:49

Precisely - that's why a certain party is facing jail. Hopefully it might deter others.

jumpseater 12th Nov 2021 10:25

Sentencing today
 
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trial-21887929

Today we find out how seriously the dangers of Grey Charters are taken

Yellow Sun 12th Nov 2021 12:44


Originally Posted by jumpseater (Post 11141011)
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...trial-21887929

Today we find out how seriously the dangers of Grey Charters are taken

He has been sentenced to 18 months in custody.

YS

Dave Gittins 12th Nov 2021 13:04

But in this country 18 months means he'll be out for next Easter.:yuk:

ShyTorque 12th Nov 2021 13:12

Interesting to note that his age of 67 was mentioned, hopefully to be taken in mitigation, along with the effect his conviction will have on his family.
Single pilot, public transport with passengers is not allowed over the age of 60. One can only wonder what type of flying he had been doing for the last seven years.
From the evidence found, this was by no means his first offence with regard to aviation and he'd had plenty of time in his past to consider the possibilities and ramifications of eventually being caught out.
I have no sympathy whatsoever.

happyjack 12th Nov 2021 13:13

"Grey Charter" ???????
To me grey means in the middle/ debatable?
This was in no way "grey."
A man running a charter business with no AOC, employing PPL's without ratings, on an American registered aircraft in Europe? What is grey about that?
But yes we found out what the law thinks of these operatations...
18 months?? Are you kidding me? He'll be out just after Christmas. What a joke!
The message this sends to these illegal operations, and there are very many, is carry on... no-one really cares. Shocking!

Mike Flynn 12th Nov 2021 13:13


Originally Posted by Dave Gittins (Post 11141069)
But in this country 18 months means he'll be out for next Easter.:yuk:

Perhaps so but he won’t be involved in this sort of business in the future and is unlikely to be welcome around GA airfields. He also faces the prospect of being sued by the families of the victims.

vanHorck 12th Nov 2021 14:34

Even 6 months in a jail will be no pleasure trip. Having been chastised rightly so publicly will ensure he doesn't t do this again. These black charters (rather than grey) are despicable. I hope with this court case the CAA will have gained some confidence and will start prosecuting more.

parkfell 12th Nov 2021 14:45

Henderson sentenced to 18 months, to be released on licence after 9 months which is on or about 11 August 2022.

The sentence wasn’t due to the crash & loss of life; it was due to lack of an AOC/illegal charter…it is suggested previously that the conviction/sentencing is not a deterrent to these unlawful flights.

Given the hassle & legal costs, some might just think twice.
If a hard core exists, the publicity of this tragic accident might deter punters from taking a risk.

And just how aged 67, (single crew operations cease aged 60, multi crew aged 65) was not explored notwithstanding illegal charter in the first place.
CAA intend to revoke his UK CAA licence (subject to appeal process), although given his ‘mental health’ mentioned by his Barrister, a medical certificate might in its own right be an issue?
No word from the FAA about their PPL.

As he is most likely to be sued and made bankrupt, his future is somewhat bleak, even if he does successfully appeal conviction/sentencing.

Robert Murgatroyd was sentenced in 2019 to 40 months for his illegal charter, as pilot who crash landed shortly after take-off from Barton with 3 passengers. Fortunately just comparatively minor injuries.

Lack of CAA resources seems to mean that only when an accident/incident occurs, do they take action. Would a dedicated CRIMESTOPPERS number help? An email address for reporting does exist.


ASRAAMTOO 12th Nov 2021 15:41


Originally Posted by parkfell (Post 11141116)
Henderson sentenced to 18 months, to be released on licence after 9 months which is on or about 11 August 2022.

The sentence wasn’t due to the crash & loss of life; it was due to lack of an AOC/illegal charter…it is suggested previously that the conviction/sentencing is not a deterrent to these unlawful flights.

Given the hassle & legal costs, some might just think twice.
If a hard core exists, the publicity of this tragic accident might deter punters from taking a risk.

And just how aged 67, (single crew operations cease aged 60, multi crew aged 65) was not explored notwithstanding illegal charter in the first place.
CAA intend to revoke his UK CAA licence (subject to appeal process), although given his ‘mental health’ mentioned by his Barrister, a medical certificate might in its own right be an issue?
No word from the FAA about their PPL.

As he is most likely to be sued and made bankrupt, his future is somewhat bleak, even if he does successfully appeal conviction/sentencing.

Robert Murgatroyd was sentenced in 2019 to 40 months for his illegal charter, as pilot who crash landed shortly after take-off from Barton with 3 passengers. Fortunately just comparatively minor injuries.

Lack of CAA resources seems to mean that only when an accident/incident occurs, do they take action. Would a dedicated CRIMESTOPPERS number help? An email address for reporting does exist.

Which is a shame, especially when they seem to be able to generate the resources to ruthlessly persue someone alleged to have glanced into controlled airspace by 100' or so!

Dog on Cat3 12th Nov 2021 15:46

I'm with ShyTorque on this one (post 2329)...and happyjack (post 2330). Meanwhile, I note from the BBC's online news report: "Henderson was supposed to fly the plane, but was on holiday with his wife in Paris, so asked Mr Ibbotson to do the journey." If that is true, I am truly astounded as to the leniency of an 18month sentence, especially given - as has been pointed out above - Britain's overflowing jail system will almost certainly lead to jail time no longer than half that handed down, at most. And Henderson was a former RAF officer, according to the news trail? If that, too, is fact, now would be the time for a shaming 'distancing' statement from H.M.'s military regarding such crap practice...excuse my language, Your Majesty. At the end of all of this sad, sorry tale someone is going to need to inject some confidence that improvement has resulted. The courts just failed to deliver on that one, those involved will run a mile away, the enforcement authorities will drift back into nonchalance like before, former military bosses will fail to condemn one of their own, and the 'grey' fraternity will continue like nothing ever happened... "Sala, who?" The lamentable truth looks to me that only carbon monoxide caught us all out this once, and that precisely nothing will really change as a result. That, my friends, will likely be the ultimate outcome. I take no pleasure in stating as much.

parkfell 12th Nov 2021 15:59

Henderson was in the RAF for about 2 years as a trainee navigator but left before qualifying for reasons which are best described as ‘vague’ ; didn’t like the lifestyle. Uhm!

wiggy 12th Nov 2021 16:10


And Henderson was a former RAF officer, according to the news trail? If that, too, is fact, now would be the time for a shaming 'distancing' statement from H.M.'s military
I think many of us would be pretty p’d off if “H.M. Military” started commenting on something we had done twenty, thirty or even more years after we’d chucked in our ID as we left the premises for the last time.

According to some sources (upthread if I remember correctly, certainly from elsewhere) he was an officer relatively briefly and a long time ago, but it seems to be an “angle” the press were fond of.

Edit to add: slow typing, I see parkfell has filled in some of the gaps…

Jetstream67 12th Nov 2021 16:25

I think this (and it's like) needs calling a 'Black Charter' operation; it was several large steps away from either Safe OR Legal

jumpseater 12th Nov 2021 16:33


Originally Posted by parkfell (Post 11141116)
Henderson sentenced to 18 months, to be released on licence after 9 months which is on or about 11 August 2022.

The sentence wasn’t due to the crash & loss of life; it was due to lack of an AOC/illegal charter…it is suggested previously that the conviction/sentencing is not a deterrent to these unlawful flights.
Snip

Robert Murgatroyd was sentenced in 2019 to 40 months for his illegal charter, as pilot who crash landed shortly after take-off from Barton with 3 passengers. Fortunately just comparatively minor injuries.
.

I suspect that because this was a ‘first’ offence that’s why the sentence is less than we may have thought was likely. CPS/CAA probably had enough meat on the bone in the background for this prosecution to proceed.

I believe Murgatroyd had previous convictions hence a harsher sentence in his accident case as he hadn’t changed his ways.


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