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-   -   Cardiff City Footballer Feared Missing after aircraft disappeared near Channel Island (https://www.pprune.org/accidents-close-calls/617514-cardiff-city-footballer-feared-missing-after-aircraft-disappeared-near-channel-island.html)

red9 12th Nov 2021 15:34


Originally Posted by happyjack (Post 11141074)
"Grey Charter" ???????
To me grey means in the middle/ debatable?
This was in no way "grey."
A man running a charter business with no AOC, employing PPL's without ratings, on an American registered aircraft in Europe? What is grey about that?
But yes we found out what the law thinks of these operatations...
18 months?? Are you kidding me? He'll be out just after Christmas. What a joke!
The message this sends to these illegal operations, and there are very many, is carry on... no-one really cares. Shocking!

Hear , Hear , Should have been 18 years.....

Warren Peace 12th Nov 2021 15:41

Emiliano Sala: David Henderson jailed for organising flight
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59251852

BBC News

The man who organised the flight which killed footballer Emiliano Sala and pilot David Ibbotson has been sentenced to 18 months in prison.

David Henderson, 67, of Hotham, East Riding of Yorkshire, was found guilty last month of recklessly endangering the safety of an aircraft.

He also admitted to a charge of trying to arrange a flight for a passenger without permission or authorisation.

Sala and Mr Ibbotson died in January 2019 in a crash in the English Channel.

The footballer's body was found about two-and-a-half weeks after the crash, though Mr Ibbotson, the pilot, has never been found.

mikehallam 12th Nov 2021 16:14

That is all true, but regardless of his misdemeanour any legal pilot could/would have succumbed to CO incapacitation.
What I don't perceive in all the concentration commenting and dealing with one man's crime is anything directed at maintenance. Either via the written procedures which may not call for CO leak inspection, or perhaps the organisation responsible for maintenance which at best failed to see incipient exhaust leaks.
No leaks and we'd not have heard of the ancillary crime !

ak7274 12th Nov 2021 18:46

Question re Carbon monoxide poisoning.

Does it cause gradual incapacitation, as apparently Dave Ibbo was talking to ATC quite coherently until very shortly before the crash?


Pilot DAR 12th Nov 2021 19:41


Does it cause gradual incapacitation
Yes, CO displaces oxygen in your blood, so your blood cannot effectively carry oxygen to where it needs to be in your body. Slow, and un noticed incapacitation, fatal if patient not given fresh air/oxygen in time.

biscuit74 12th Nov 2021 21:02


Originally Posted by mikehallam (Post 11141189)
That is all true, but regardless of his misdemeanour any legal pilot could/would have succumbed to CO incapacitation.
What I don't perceive in all the concentration commenting and dealing with one man's crime is anything directed at maintenance. Either via the written procedures which may not call for CO leak inspection, or perhaps the organisation responsible for maintenance which at best failed to see incipient exhaust leaks.
No leaks and we'd not have heard of the ancillary crime !

Even the best of maintenance cannot catch leaks before they occur. The noise heard on the previous leg could have been the cracking of the exhaust, though that is unlikely. Only good continuous maintenance plus adequate monitors are a safeguard. One of the concerns in this aircraft's operation was that as an N registered aircraft it was not subject to the same rules & oversight as UK registered machines, Good maintenance to US standards would of course be fine, but was it done? Operations that are shoestrings or working illegally may not be as rigorous. as they should. This gentleman was only one part of a very dubious chain. Will the others be dealt with?

Richard Dangle 13th Nov 2021 04:47


This gentleman was only one part of a very dubious chain. Will the others be dealt with?
Completely concur. Fingers crossed this accident and it associated coverage will lead to a comprehensive review of the regulation of these so-called "grey charters. Hopefully one which will close the regulatory loopholes which currently exist.

megan 13th Nov 2021 05:00

I don't see any regulatory loop holes Richard, it's just a case of catching the transgressors, a bit like those speedsters on the freeway, the rules are there, you just need to catch them and put them in front of the courts.

parkfell 13th Nov 2021 07:35

The Regulations need to be reviewed with consideration given to include those paying for “Grey Charters” to be guilty of an offence.

If the law was retrospective (not that I am suggesting it should be in this case) then the football agents etc asking for these cut price flights would get their collars felt as well.

Where these individuals oblivious to the regulations?
A forensic examination of Henderson’s transactions may well be revealing.

As for the Coroner’s Inquest in February 2022, that is likely to confine itself to the circumstances surrounding the deaths on board the fatal aircraft crash.
The AAIB report with Inspector will feature heavily.
As it is not a Public Inquiry, wider aspects are unlikely to be examined.

Richard Dangle 13th Nov 2021 08:40


I don't see any regulatory loop holes Richard, it's just a case of catching the transgressors, a bit like those speedsters on the freeway, the rules are there, you just need to catch them and put them in front of the courts.
We would disagree there Megan, but hopefully only on a point of semantics. :)

I come from a school of thought that says that leisure flying and commercial flying should kept 100% separate and regulations should be in place to prevent any overlap and substantially inhibit any "tinkering" with the rules. Anyone who has been around GA for any length of time will know exactly where the grey areas are. Other than a long life long interest in flight safety lingering from a 30 year professional career in aviation, I have no dog in the fight, so I'll refrain from details...there are commercial operators who no doubt will have more to say. Indeed some already are (my bold):

The Air Charter Association said the sentencing would set a precedent for the future.

Chief executive Glenn Hogben said: "There's more that can be done but it will certainly serve as a significant deterrent to people who are either currently involved in these types of practices or make people think twice about taking that sort of direction."

Pilot DAR 13th Nov 2021 11:48


then the football agents etc asking for these cut price flights
...May not capture the problem. Person needs to go from A to B, preferably direct, with few if any stops and public exposure/delay. Person's person knows a guy, and makes a call. A "private" [looking] airplane appears, and person gets from A to B (most times). If person's person called a different guy, a different plane and pilot would have appeared, but person's person knew this guy.

I entirely agree that chisel charters have no place in our industry, and should be stopped. As said, 100% distinction between private and commercial air transport. But, as long as the entirely unknowing public person, knows "a guy", the ONLY check in the system will be is that guy honest enough to say "sorry, I can't help you, I won't fly for hire, you should call this charter operator.". If person's person's were being diligently directed to charter operators for charter flights by the "guys" in the grey zone of our industry, this would not be a problem. But in this scenario, person public is extremely poorly informed to decide for themself what service to accept, and what service to decline.

Sure, if someone turned up in a ratty 172 wearing a T shirt, person might think twice, but a Malibu is a convincing type for a "professional" seeming trip, and if the pilot is wearing striped epaulets on a white shirt, it probably seals the deal with no further consideration....

WHBM 13th Nov 2021 12:20


Originally Posted by wiggy (Post 11141152)
I think many of us would be pretty p’d off if “H.M. Military” started commenting on something we had done twenty, thirty or even more years after we’d chucked in our ID as we left the premises for the last time.

Yes, but the "many of us" are not relying in a court on this as some sort of accolade. The implication, because it's not stated otherwise, and to those not digging any further, is that he was a qualified air force pilot from those times - which is clearly not the case, and the RAF should put the media straight.

parkfell 13th Nov 2021 12:24

If Cardiff FC had their own aircraft, with professional pilots as employees, then no one would question the out and back to Nantes preferably multi crewed in say a Kingair or something similar. Something which the Clubs and others now appreciate.

The Big Brother option to monitor all flight plans for ‘unusual activity’ in real time.
Where a flight plan is not filed, the aerodrome movement log will reveal details including destination although not in real time. Big brother would require details to be passed to them on departure, of those aircraft with ‘markers’ [ANPR concept] on them. Certainty onerous on the aerodrome authority?

Agent provocateur technique to catch those “at it” probably a set too far?

HMRC pay informants where undeclared tax is collected from tax payers.

Might the CAA consider such a similar scheme?
Some thought provoking comments would come as no surprise…

wiggy 13th Nov 2021 13:47


Originally Posted by WHBM (Post 11141594)
Yes, but the "many of us" are not relying in a court on this as some sort of accolade. The implication, because it's not stated otherwise, and to those not digging any further, is that he was a qualified air force pilot from those times - which is clearly not the case, and the RAF should put the media straight.

I’m not sure MOD has the manpower to go around putting the media straight about the service history of every ex-service man or woman that ends up in court…

In the context of this case TBH I’m not sure anybody much cared about his background and I doubt at this stage in proceedings the RAF putting anybody “straight” would be noticed by the MSM, let alone be published.

It’s much more important that people realise there’s a difference between a PPL and a commercial license, and hopefully the coverage did ensure “many of us” are now fully aware of that.




Airbanda 13th Nov 2021 15:02

The judge's sentencing remarks have now been published:

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/...s-12.11.21.pdf

He is sentenced for offences around endangering the aircraft but not for the consequences. He is described as a an experienced Commercial Pilot but so far as I can see no mention is made of the RAF - presumably that point came out in wider evidence during the trial.

Read in its own terms the note is a pretty damning indictment of Henderson and his attitude to operating charters of this type. Ibbotson's failings had been flagged for him by another passenger and by the fact that there had been MOR's regarding (1) an infringement of controlled airspace and (b) runway infringements while taxying.

wiggy 13th Nov 2021 16:09

Thanks for that Airbanda, v v interesting to read those remarks in full as you say, pretty damning….

Maoraigh1 13th Nov 2021 18:28

"fatal if patient not given fresh air/oxygen in time."
It's worse than that. Two workmen in Edinburgh were exposed to CO, were able to leave and drive away, but both died. Blood has permanently lost O2 transport ability, and hospital care would be needed, but might not be enough. It's not just anoxia.

sirAlex 13th Nov 2021 20:36

Alternative (partial) solution to 'more policing' ?
 
The issue of lack of enforcement of current rules in the UK has been highlighted in many posts.

The remedies mentioned have almost invariably related to better policing of these rules.

Might I suggest an alternative, which whilst certainly not covering all eventualities would, I believe, have the virtue of closing down major segments of this dangerous black market in air transport.

Emiliano Salas was being transferred between Nantes and Cardiff City, the latter then playing in the English Premier League (despite the obvious geographical anomoly.)

Why do the authorities (sic) in this case the CAA, though possibly including both the Air Charter Association and BALPA, not approach the Premiership to establish a code of practice which specifically outlaws the use of aircraft and pilots which are not on the official register by their players or club officials?


My knowledge of the air transport industry is next to non-existent but horse racing also appears at times to be heavily dependent on these cowboy operators, so why not approach them too?

Could the Premiership or the British Horse Racing Authority in current circumstances really fail to respond positively to such an approach?

I suggest not.


megan 14th Nov 2021 02:00


We would disagree there Megan, but hopefully only on a point of semantics
Honest question Richard, what regulatory loop holes do you feel need to be closed?

ak7274 14th Nov 2021 08:19


Originally Posted by megan (Post 11141848)
Honest question Richard, what regulatory loop holes do you feel need to be closed?

Owner rents his aircraft to a customer, then flies the aircraft for free..... On a PPL?


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