JAL incident at Haneda Airport
Wondering what the Charlie means in the inital call of JA722A to tower 17:45:11 "TOWER JA722A C"
Is he with information C? Or is he already holding at C(5), wrongly interpreting the taxi instruction that follows as an instruction to line up? The other civlian pilots seem to call tower during their taxi towards the holding points, and they are saying so in their initial calls.
Is he with information C? Or is he already holding at C(5), wrongly interpreting the taxi instruction that follows as an instruction to line up? The other civlian pilots seem to call tower during their taxi towards the holding points, and they are saying so in their initial calls.
At night, identifying a smallish aircraft in the wrong position among thousands of airport lights, with a million lights across the bay is very, very difficult. Having worked ATC at an airport in a large city I can assure you that the main tool for checking the position of anything more than a few hundred meters away was not my eyes, it was the A-SMGCS. Why no RMCA alert triggered with a stationary aircraft on the runway and a 350 on short final is the real mystery here.
So I took some screenshots from one of the surveillance camera videos posted earlier, and marked them up to hilite the A350 Landing Lights:
So from the vertical position of its landing lights I think that the A350 was fully landed before hitting the Dash 8.
Also, you might think that the Dash8 was offset to the left when the impact occurred?
And what a terrible accident this was! It is a miracle that the captain of the Dash8 survived, and my sympathies go to the other crew members.
IB
So from the vertical position of its landing lights I think that the A350 was fully landed before hitting the Dash 8.
Also, you might think that the Dash8 was offset to the left when the impact occurred?
And what a terrible accident this was! It is a miracle that the captain of the Dash8 survived, and my sympathies go to the other crew members.
IB
Pegase Driver
I have been retired a long time, but I used to operate into Narita where the ATC was good.
From the transcript I can imagine it happening. JAL516 comes on frequency, hears DAL 276 taxiing full length for T/O, and then hes Cleared to Land. In my day that meant, great, runway is all mine (except in USA where it meant, I expect the runway to be clear when you get there).
The J722A comes onto Tower and cleared to C5, youre number 1 (for departure, not for the runway, unclear). That JAL179 comes on, and is no 3, (so that DAL ahead must be no 2, and I'm no 1).
He arrives at C5, the red bar has been turned off already (didn't read the notam), hes number one, so what does he do?
I know Id have stopped and asked for verbal confirmation, and Id have read it back loud and clear.
But he has heard nobody on approach, there are lights at 5 or 6 km, for 34L at a guess, hes number 1, and 2 and 3 are taxying to C1 so the Coastguard crosses the line and lines up, waiting. JAL166 is told to slow down, for a departure (that must be me! gives me time) and still he waits, 166 is told min app speed, (gives me more time) and then the world caves in.
JAL516 was convinced cleared meant runway is all mine and this happens. This flight has not been mentioned since Coastguard came on frequency.
I think in that situation (when stop-bars are u/s) they should erect a row of red lights across the holding point and all aircraft must use C1.
From the transcript I can imagine it happening. JAL516 comes on frequency, hears DAL 276 taxiing full length for T/O, and then hes Cleared to Land. In my day that meant, great, runway is all mine (except in USA where it meant, I expect the runway to be clear when you get there).
The J722A comes onto Tower and cleared to C5, youre number 1 (for departure, not for the runway, unclear). That JAL179 comes on, and is no 3, (so that DAL ahead must be no 2, and I'm no 1).
He arrives at C5, the red bar has been turned off already (didn't read the notam), hes number one, so what does he do?
I know Id have stopped and asked for verbal confirmation, and Id have read it back loud and clear.
But he has heard nobody on approach, there are lights at 5 or 6 km, for 34L at a guess, hes number 1, and 2 and 3 are taxying to C1 so the Coastguard crosses the line and lines up, waiting. JAL166 is told to slow down, for a departure (that must be me! gives me time) and still he waits, 166 is told min app speed, (gives me more time) and then the world caves in.
JAL516 was convinced cleared meant runway is all mine and this happens. This flight has not been mentioned since Coastguard came on frequency.
I think in that situation (when stop-bars are u/s) they should erect a row of red lights across the holding point and all aircraft must use C1.
I remember years back when investigating an ATC incident , where the Controller cleared the aircraft to a different level than the standard one for the initial APP, which was correctly read back by the pilot , but he descended to the "standard one" . Initially the pilot swear that ATC had clear him to the standard level and he replied this level. Only when listening to the tape days later did he realized his brain had tricked him .
Why is the position of the GNSS antennas of any significance? Isn't the ADS-B position data compensated for antenna position? I had to enter antenna position offsets when I installed my light aircraft ADS-B Out.
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A recently broadcast video from an 'NHK camera" available on the NHK World website gives a clearer view. It seems to indicate FlyingRoland's A scenario is most accurate. I can't post links, but a search for "Coast Guard plane seems to have stayed on runway for 40 seconds before collision" on NHK World should find it.
AIS ("ADS-B" for ships) provides the offsets of the GNSS antenna in lateral and longitudinal axes in a separate message so the full dimensions of the vessel can be calculated by the consumer of the data. ADS-B does not provide that data.
It's not that long since the JetBlue/Hop-a-Jet incident in Boston. The charter pilot realised he has been give instructions to wait but "but in my mind I was clear for takeoff."
According to Reuters:
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-p...it-2024-01-04/
According to Reuters:
In normal times, the Coast Guard tends to fly mid-morning when runways are less busy, the official said, adding the airport was "very busy" on the day of the accident.
Miyamoto, the pilot, also had a busy schedule.
The day before, he had been on a 7-hour mission to Japan’s southernmost island Okinotori, where he had been surveying a Chinese vessel off its waters. He returned around 5 p.m., just after the earthquake struck.
Miyamoto, the pilot, also had a busy schedule.
The day before, he had been on a 7-hour mission to Japan’s southernmost island Okinotori, where he had been surveying a Chinese vessel off its waters. He returned around 5 p.m., just after the earthquake struck.
A recently broadcast video from an 'NHK camera" available on the NHK World website gives a clearer view. It seems to indicate FlyingRoland's A scenario is most accurate. I can't post links, but a search for "Coast Guard plane seems to have stayed on runway for 40 seconds before collision" on NHK World should find it.
https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240105_04/
Edit: the above link to the TV station now shows a slightly different video without the long taxi portion of the Dash-8. My remarks below do not apply to the new one anymore
Oh yes, this seems new.
18s into the video, we can see the Dash-8 taxying along C southeastbound (against the landing direction)
without stop it turns left (probably C5), enters the rwy in another turn and then stops.
25s into the video the news corporation starts a counter to measure the waiting on the rwy.
after a time lapse we can see that at 40s waiting time the collision takes place.
WRT Dash-8:
Check if we can see strobes active and when they started
Check if we can differ rwy turnoff lights and landing lights. There's a bright light at the front
WRT A350:
Check Touchdown point
Notice it's still at pitch when impacting
What do you think happened with the Spoilers and T/R? activated and retracted again? never activated?
Last edited by waito; 5th Jan 2024 at 08:01.
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What do you think happened with the Spoilers and T/R? activated and retracted again? never activated?
Reverse thrust is manual, if crew tried to activate it is mostlikely, but the signal did never reach the control unit in the engines after collision. We can draw this conclusion as engine 2 was not being aber to be shut down, neither they had intercom working any longer. Purser had to walk into the cockpit.
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et voila
Oh yes, this seems new.
18s into the video, we can see the Dash-8 taxying along C southeastbound (against the landing direction)
without stop it turns left (probably C5), enters the rwy in another turn and then stops.
25s into the video the news corporation starts a counter to measure the waiting on the rwy.
after a time lapse we can see that at 40s waiting time the collision takes place.
WRT Dash-8:
Check if we can see strobes active and when they started
Check if we can differ rwy turnoff lights and landing lights. There's a bright light at the front
WRT A350:
Check Touchdown point
Notice it's still at pitch when impacting
What do you think happened with the Spoilers and T/R? activated and retracted again? never activated?
Oh yes, this seems new.
18s into the video, we can see the Dash-8 taxying along C southeastbound (against the landing direction)
without stop it turns left (probably C5), enters the rwy in another turn and then stops.
25s into the video the news corporation starts a counter to measure the waiting on the rwy.
after a time lapse we can see that at 40s waiting time the collision takes place.
WRT Dash-8:
Check if we can see strobes active and when they started
Check if we can differ rwy turnoff lights and landing lights. There's a bright light at the front
WRT A350:
Check Touchdown point
Notice it's still at pitch when impacting
What do you think happened with the Spoilers and T/R? activated and retracted again? never activated?
Can be the angle of the camera also..?
Hard to say in this video but the wing tip strobes seem to have been active from C5 on at minimum.
Question: How long is a typical for T/O preparation in a Dash-8 if no time during hectic taxi? 30sec if nothing was done during taxi?
Question: How long is a typical for T/O preparation in a Dash-8 if no time during hectic taxi? 30sec if nothing was done during taxi?
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Scenario A
So I now believe we agree that scenario A is the most likely one.
- The A350 was probably 1.5 to 2 meters RIGHT of centerline based on last position data.
- The DHC-8 was probably 2 to 3 meters LEFT of centerline based on the wreckage position.
I split the event in 2 (A1 and A2).
A1: At approximately the moment of main gear touchdown the A350's RADOME hit the right side of DHC-8's TAIL (HORIZONTAL STABILIZER).
A2: About 0.4 seconds later the A350's nose hits the ground and the A350's ENGINE NACELLES hit the WING of the DHC-8.
- The A350 was probably 1.5 to 2 meters RIGHT of centerline based on last position data.
- The DHC-8 was probably 2 to 3 meters LEFT of centerline based on the wreckage position.
I split the event in 2 (A1 and A2).
A1: At approximately the moment of main gear touchdown the A350's RADOME hit the right side of DHC-8's TAIL (HORIZONTAL STABILIZER).
A2: About 0.4 seconds later the A350's nose hits the ground and the A350's ENGINE NACELLES hit the WING of the DHC-8.
Last edited by FlyingRoland; 4th Jan 2024 at 17:22.
I think I can see wingtip strobes on the Dash-8 already activated when on C5 and before entering Rwy 34R. But the landing light flickers as well in the course of the video, so not 100% guaranteed
From that angle and video quality, a sort of front wheel light (taxi light?) is well visible.
Can't see when it activated. Don't see any other light added on before "takeoff attempt"
All this does not mean it was a better visibility given for Tower or JAL516. Just 2 cheese slices that obviously did not have successful influence
WRT A350:
Check Touchdown point, not too far from C5. We can assume MLG was fully on Rwy, but not yet compressed from Spoiler action
Notice it's still at pitch when impacting, I bet de-rotation was halfway in progress
Spoilers and T/R - thanks MartinM
offset: really looks like Dash-8 was left of the A350 nose and front fuselage. Not really sure.
(Sorry for spamming the thread, by coincidence I'm currently stuck at home with no duty)
ref - https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-1...section-91.227 para (d) (1)
The ADSB-Out position is defined as the center of a rectangle defined by the aircraft width and length.
ref - https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/...ac_20-165b.pdf para 3.8.4
I agree now. I just don't get, why is engine #2 (starboard, left in your picture) so badly damaged from the small wingtip. Missing Fan and even a "wing cut" on the outboard inlet? Why is engine #1 less damaged with almost no "wing cut" on outboard inlet when it had to take midspan wing section??
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How did you tilt the A350 front drawing nose down in A2??? Faked? 😂👍
I agree now. I just don't get, why is engine #2 (starboard, left in your picture) so badly damaged from the small wingtip. Missing Fan and even a "wing cut" on the outboard inlet? Why is engine #1 less damaged with almost no "wing cut" on outboard inlet when it had to take midspan wing section??
I agree now. I just don't get, why is engine #2 (starboard, left in your picture) so badly damaged from the small wingtip. Missing Fan and even a "wing cut" on the outboard inlet? Why is engine #1 less damaged with almost no "wing cut" on outboard inlet when it had to take midspan wing section??
The answer to your question I don't know. All is speculative of course, but some things seem to make sense in scenario A.
In the drawing A2 can be seen that the upper part of the left main gear strut is about the clip the left wing of the DHC-8 and misses the captain's seat.
And the A350's nose falls in front of the DHC-8...