UK NPAS discussion: thread Mk 2
Spare 902?
Rumour has it that the former Cambridgeshire aircraft had troubles of its own.... a real Friday aircraft .... when serving its original masters. So perhaps not ideal all round. Anyway its nominally a spare to the SE Region 902 so sending it North was probably not an option.
Maybe the original plan was to have the South Yorkshire 902 as the northern spare.....
The question is what will MDHI announce at Heli-Expo this year? If they do not relaunch the 902 next week they may never do it...... then it may be more sensible to gamble on the Las Vegas tables after all.....
Rumour has it that the former Cambridgeshire aircraft had troubles of its own.... a real Friday aircraft .... when serving its original masters. So perhaps not ideal all round. Anyway its nominally a spare to the SE Region 902 so sending it North was probably not an option.
Maybe the original plan was to have the South Yorkshire 902 as the northern spare.....
The question is what will MDHI announce at Heli-Expo this year? If they do not relaunch the 902 next week they may never do it...... then it may be more sensible to gamble on the Las Vegas tables after all.....
Don't GMP have access to the NPAS Spare 902 if theirs is unservicable ?
Lynn T has already sent her poodle Henk to Las Vegas to prepare the red carpet for her arrival.
Hmmmn ... its probably more important what she wears to the party than anything else......like a helicopter perhaps.
Hmmmn ... its probably more important what she wears to the party than anything else......like a helicopter perhaps.
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" Some aren't pulling their weight with regards to making things just a bit easier."
I've got say with things as they are, potential pay cuts ahead, struggling to get leave, compulsory redundancies over the horizon.... etc etc etc.. My motivation to help things move along is at rock bottom.
I drive to work, do my shift, go home.
NPAS sell themselves as an uber slick, knowledgeable and efficient organisation... I'm not about to sacrifice spending time with my children to help them out. I did that for the previous 9 years for my unit. You get neither thanks nor appreciation for it in the end. My force still rolled over and signed up to this farcical organisation, despite the extra efforts of my colleagues and I over the years.
I put the effort in when I'm there. But they don't get anything extra.
I've got say with things as they are, potential pay cuts ahead, struggling to get leave, compulsory redundancies over the horizon.... etc etc etc.. My motivation to help things move along is at rock bottom.
I drive to work, do my shift, go home.
NPAS sell themselves as an uber slick, knowledgeable and efficient organisation... I'm not about to sacrifice spending time with my children to help them out. I did that for the previous 9 years for my unit. You get neither thanks nor appreciation for it in the end. My force still rolled over and signed up to this farcical organisation, despite the extra efforts of my colleagues and I over the years.
I put the effort in when I'm there. But they don't get anything extra.
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Attended a well known location in Oxon recently where I spoke to an officer from NPAS based on a unit in the Eastern area (not Benson).
He intially was not aware I was air support pre NPAS. I was surprised and sad to hear from him what a disaster it has been and in short to many aircraft down, not enough officers to run the shift's, transits too long, lack of local knowledge, and crap dispatch system. The final comment was that they are providing a service level well below par and the service that is provided is very poor most of the time.
My only dream ( and will always be a dream) would be for my PCC to take NPAS to court for breach of contract, get our money back.
He intially was not aware I was air support pre NPAS. I was surprised and sad to hear from him what a disaster it has been and in short to many aircraft down, not enough officers to run the shift's, transits too long, lack of local knowledge, and crap dispatch system. The final comment was that they are providing a service level well below par and the service that is provided is very poor most of the time.
My only dream ( and will always be a dream) would be for my PCC to take NPAS to court for breach of contract, get our money back.
I'm desperately trying not to say "I t*** Y** *o" but its bloody difficult!
Remember I also said "Remember the names of the architects of all this" Because one day the chickens must come home to roost!
tigerfish
Remember I also said "Remember the names of the architects of all this" Because one day the chickens must come home to roost!
tigerfish
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Tiger fish I totally agree the architect's of this should be remembered from political level to those local managers. This project has highlighted why the public sector is broke,inefficient, and not value for money in some areas.
What is also frightening is those that should hang their heads in shame are not wise enough to listen and stop and do a re think.
More money now being pumped into it and having to recruit more staff because the shift pattern does not work (another told you so).
How much if any of the projected 15 Million a year saving is left after all the extra servicing now taking place and extra staff.
Nationally Air support needed to change but sadly this is not what it needed. Destroyed by people that did not have a operational clue and would not listen to those that did.
What is also frightening is those that should hang their heads in shame are not wise enough to listen and stop and do a re think.
More money now being pumped into it and having to recruit more staff because the shift pattern does not work (another told you so).
How much if any of the projected 15 Million a year saving is left after all the extra servicing now taking place and extra staff.
Nationally Air support needed to change but sadly this is not what it needed. Destroyed by people that did not have a operational clue and would not listen to those that did.
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Having a national "air wing" for the police is all fine and dandy.
However. It's only fine and dandy if all your going to be doing is notional missing person searches to tick boxes, high profile public order work, or pre-planned operations.
However if you want to want actually catch any criminals, findany missing persons, or god forbid actually drop on a pursuit, then localism is the key..
Adding extra layers of command/comms is not the way to go, neither is having a/c response times of 30 mins or more...
Furthermore. Local knowledge of Officers in the a/c is priceless.
So yes. A national unit may have some advantages. But if you want to get some ACTUAL results... policing your local area is the key.
However. It's only fine and dandy if all your going to be doing is notional missing person searches to tick boxes, high profile public order work, or pre-planned operations.
However if you want to want actually catch any criminals, findany missing persons, or god forbid actually drop on a pursuit, then localism is the key..
Adding extra layers of command/comms is not the way to go, neither is having a/c response times of 30 mins or more...
Furthermore. Local knowledge of Officers in the a/c is priceless.
So yes. A national unit may have some advantages. But if you want to get some ACTUAL results... policing your local area is the key.
Last edited by morris1; 3rd Mar 2013 at 16:34.
Morris1,
The original thinking behind the National project was all to do with economies of scale.
National contract for maintenance.
**** **** ** Training
**** **** ** Insurance
**** **** ** Pilot Pool etc
**** **** ** aircraft Provision - procurement
**** **** ** testing and acquisition of new Equipment.
A National PAOC
All operational work centred on a regional base but with approximately the same number of a/c operating from existing forward bases.
Further savings derived from having one Regional UEO or equivalent with deputies at forward bases. Regional training officers delivering the National course.
I suspect that had been the way it went, the savings from economies of scale and supervisory and training officer numbers, would have exceeded what the current buggeration factor is delivering now. Plus morale and efficiency would have remained high. Any overprovision of resources would have become evident quite soon, and the necessary adjustments made from a position of strength.
But they wanted undisputed Power. The sort of Power you can only get by getting rid of anyone who might know the correct way of doing it.
Stalin did that to the Red army. Its didnt work then either.
tigerfish
The original thinking behind the National project was all to do with economies of scale.
National contract for maintenance.
**** **** ** Training
**** **** ** Insurance
**** **** ** Pilot Pool etc
**** **** ** aircraft Provision - procurement
**** **** ** testing and acquisition of new Equipment.
A National PAOC
All operational work centred on a regional base but with approximately the same number of a/c operating from existing forward bases.
Further savings derived from having one Regional UEO or equivalent with deputies at forward bases. Regional training officers delivering the National course.
I suspect that had been the way it went, the savings from economies of scale and supervisory and training officer numbers, would have exceeded what the current buggeration factor is delivering now. Plus morale and efficiency would have remained high. Any overprovision of resources would have become evident quite soon, and the necessary adjustments made from a position of strength.
But they wanted undisputed Power. The sort of Power you can only get by getting rid of anyone who might know the correct way of doing it.
Stalin did that to the Red army. Its didnt work then either.
tigerfish
Last edited by tigerfish; 4th Mar 2013 at 16:43.
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Hmm...mainly shifts and manpower levels. Some have worked 6 weeks without a weekend off. Shifts are getting changed at short notice due to lack of Observers. One unit had to close due to sickness. Not just because 8 is not enough, but also one unit is undermanned anyway which makes the problem worse. One guy came off nights and was asked to start a night shift at another unit 8 hours later. That would be after the drive home which was just over an hour and then a 1h 45m drive for the next shift. Not a lot of time for sleep there. He declined. Another worked 7 nights out of 10 duties. Some aren't pulling their weight with regards to making things just a bit easier.
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The regs that state there must be 11 hours between duties, and that a shift can only be changed to a rest day with authority of the chief constable, and then there has to be good reason (such as an unforeseen event). If it is changed you are entitled to payment at an enhanced rate depending in the notice period.
If there is no good reason, or exigency of duty as they call it they may not change your rest days. Having insufficient staff on the unit by choice is not a good reason in my opinion.
If there is no good reason, or exigency of duty as they call it they may not change your rest days. Having insufficient staff on the unit by choice is not a good reason in my opinion.
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Whatapalava,
Do you have some more info from the Original Post that hasn't been published ?
I agree with all of those Reg's, but the OP doesn't actually say that any of them were breached,
the closest seems to have been asking one of the staff to work another shift without enough rest period,
but that was declined so no breach.
I can't see anything about a shift being changed to a Rest Day
( or a Rest Day being changed to a shift day which is what I think you meant ),
so perhaps we need a little more clarity from TheDog, or yourself about what's really going on up there :
"6 weeks without a weekend off" - They are getting rest Days during the week though aren't they ?
"Shifts are getting changed a to short notice due a lack of Observers"- But why ?
Looking at it from a Management persepctive, if it's to cover unforseen Sick leave,
then it's probably reasonable to call it an "exigence of duty".
"One guy came off Nights and was asked to work 8 hours later..."
Accepted he shouldn't have been asked, but he declined so no breach of Reg's. there.
"Another worked 7 Nights out of 10 duties" - This doesn't explain the full picture -
Was that 10 duties straight without a day off, of which 7 were Night shifts -
or were those 10 duties spread out over more than 10 days,
and could have inlcuded Rest Days breaking up the run of Night shifts ?
It will probably all settle down once all the new Recruits have been selected and trained
Do you have some more info from the Original Post that hasn't been published ?
I agree with all of those Reg's, but the OP doesn't actually say that any of them were breached,
the closest seems to have been asking one of the staff to work another shift without enough rest period,
but that was declined so no breach.
I can't see anything about a shift being changed to a Rest Day
( or a Rest Day being changed to a shift day which is what I think you meant ),
so perhaps we need a little more clarity from TheDog, or yourself about what's really going on up there :
"6 weeks without a weekend off" - They are getting rest Days during the week though aren't they ?
"Shifts are getting changed a to short notice due a lack of Observers"- But why ?
Looking at it from a Management persepctive, if it's to cover unforseen Sick leave,
then it's probably reasonable to call it an "exigence of duty".
"One guy came off Nights and was asked to work 8 hours later..."
Accepted he shouldn't have been asked, but he declined so no breach of Reg's. there.
"Another worked 7 Nights out of 10 duties" - This doesn't explain the full picture -
Was that 10 duties straight without a day off, of which 7 were Night shifts -
or were those 10 duties spread out over more than 10 days,
and could have inlcuded Rest Days breaking up the run of Night shifts ?
It will probably all settle down once all the new Recruits have been selected and trained
Last edited by Coconutty; 14th Mar 2013 at 18:26.
Coconutty, I tend to agree that the complaints do not seem over onerous even if the debatable items had been accepted by those that had refused additional duty.
Shift patterns have thank fully changed over the years but there are plenty of quite recently retired cops out there [including me] who thought nothing of a standard 6-day week, with three weeks continuous night duty with three days off inserted to disrupt normality, quick changes.... off nights at 6am to attend a 10-30am court miles from home.... three of four times in a week.
Going off duty and returning within 8 hours is certainly nothing new in the world of police duty changes but I might vote not to fly with the pilot having undertaken such a change - I deduce that there is a wild difference between putting your life into the hands of someone punting a car around the streets and another flying an aircraft with only 5-6 hours sleep.
Ok I know lots of it is sheer history now but this 11 hour gap is new and the case has not really been explained well by whatapalava.
Shift patterns have thank fully changed over the years but there are plenty of quite recently retired cops out there [including me] who thought nothing of a standard 6-day week, with three weeks continuous night duty with three days off inserted to disrupt normality, quick changes.... off nights at 6am to attend a 10-30am court miles from home.... three of four times in a week.
Going off duty and returning within 8 hours is certainly nothing new in the world of police duty changes but I might vote not to fly with the pilot having undertaken such a change - I deduce that there is a wild difference between putting your life into the hands of someone punting a car around the streets and another flying an aircraft with only 5-6 hours sleep.
Ok I know lots of it is sheer history now but this 11 hour gap is new and the case has not really been explained well by whatapalava.
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and its goodnight from me.
Ladies and Gentlemen, I bid you farewell.
The current atmosphere surrounding Police Officers and social media has brought me to the conclusion that it is time to say goodbye to PPrune after 8 years.
Im not happy that I cant be "found" should the service I work for decide to come get me. Some quite high profile Officers (and one who I know personally) are currently on the verge of being investigated. So on that note I'm deleting my account as of tonight.
I'll check in every now and then as a visitor, however I wont be posting anything further.
I read today Jeremy Hunt talking about NHS whistleblowers, and saying "There has been a culture where people felt if you speak up about problems in the NHS you didn't love the NHS,"
It seems that if the Police Service are providing a poor service, we must keep it to ourselves..!
I do love my job. I love being a Police Officer and the flying part is just an added bonus that lets me do the Police work better.
I'll leave on this note.. that NPAS was doomed from the start, because it was born to cut costs, not provide a better service. Any successes it has along the way, will only ever be due to the hard work of those of us fighting through the weather, in the dark, to get to where we are needed, then using our skills and experience honed over the years, to get the results.
I am in NPAS, and will remain for now until/if winsor takes money from me. My one hope is that im still around to see something better rise from the ashes of NPAS after it has all been found out to be the huge white elephant it has already proved to be.
My opinions on NPAS from now.... are not to be publicised, for fear of retribution from the powers that be.
Goodnight, safe flying to you all.
The current atmosphere surrounding Police Officers and social media has brought me to the conclusion that it is time to say goodbye to PPrune after 8 years.
Im not happy that I cant be "found" should the service I work for decide to come get me. Some quite high profile Officers (and one who I know personally) are currently on the verge of being investigated. So on that note I'm deleting my account as of tonight.
I'll check in every now and then as a visitor, however I wont be posting anything further.
I read today Jeremy Hunt talking about NHS whistleblowers, and saying "There has been a culture where people felt if you speak up about problems in the NHS you didn't love the NHS,"
It seems that if the Police Service are providing a poor service, we must keep it to ourselves..!
I do love my job. I love being a Police Officer and the flying part is just an added bonus that lets me do the Police work better.
I'll leave on this note.. that NPAS was doomed from the start, because it was born to cut costs, not provide a better service. Any successes it has along the way, will only ever be due to the hard work of those of us fighting through the weather, in the dark, to get to where we are needed, then using our skills and experience honed over the years, to get the results.
I am in NPAS, and will remain for now until/if winsor takes money from me. My one hope is that im still around to see something better rise from the ashes of NPAS after it has all been found out to be the huge white elephant it has already proved to be.
My opinions on NPAS from now.... are not to be publicised, for fear of retribution from the powers that be.
Goodnight, safe flying to you all.
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Has anyone seen the Draft from the Uk emergency Air Response Working Group? This is just a small snip from the 80 page document. NPAS has been heavily involved in this, if you get to read the full draft it makes for a worrying read!! Looks like all Emergancy Air assets are in the planning stages to join in to one working group? Anything someone needs to tell us?
[QUOTE]
1.1 UK Search and Rescue StrategicCommittee. The UK Search and Rescue (UK SAR) Strategic Committee is aninter-agency
national forum established in 2000,with responsibility for advising on the structure, scope and framework of theorganisation of UK SAR. The
primary objectives of the Committeeare to develop criteria for the coverage, responsiveness and availability of SARservices, to promote
effective and efficient co-operationbetween government departments, emergency services and voluntary agencies forthe effective provision of
national SAR services. The Committee‟sremit is to offer views to ministers on improving SAR capabilities and theeffectiveness and
co-operation of SAR providers. Themembership of the UKSAR Strategic Committee is confined to those departmentswith strategic and policy
responsibilities for search and rescueand to national organisations that contribute significantly to UK SAR.
1.2 UK Emergency Air ResponseWorking Group. The UK SAR Strategic Committee agreed to the formation of a „UKSAR HEMS
Working Group‟ in late 2011 in orderto examine the interaction between SAR and Helicopter Emergency MedicalServices (HEMS) aircraft.
However, it was soon recognised thatthe Group‟s work should be broadened to embrace other emergency air responseoperations. The Group
therefore adopted the title of the UKEmergency Air Response (EAR) Working Group in order to better describe itscomposition and functions.
The membership of this Group was drawnfrom organisations with responsibility for providing medical services, searchand rescue, fire and
rescue services, police aviation andaviation legal compliance matters, including the following:
Association of Air Ambulances (AAA)
Association of Ambulance ChiefExecutives
Associationof Chief Police Officers (ACPO)
British Association of Immediate Care(BASICS)
Care Quality Commission (CQC)
Chief Fire Officers Association (CFOA)
Civil Aviation Authority
Department of Health (DH) – Co Chair
Department for Transport (DfT)
HM Coastguard (HMCG)
Ministry of Defence – Air RescueCoordination Centre – Co Chair
NHS Commissioners
NHS - Resilience & PreparednessImplementation
NationalPolice Air Service
Scottish Ambulance Service
Assistance has also kindly beenprovided by the Association of
Chief PoliceOfficers Scotland (SAR Portfolio)
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
1.1 UK Search and Rescue StrategicCommittee. The UK Search and Rescue (UK SAR) Strategic Committee is aninter-agency
national forum established in 2000,with responsibility for advising on the structure, scope and framework of theorganisation of UK SAR. The
primary objectives of the Committeeare to develop criteria for the coverage, responsiveness and availability of SARservices, to promote
effective and efficient co-operationbetween government departments, emergency services and voluntary agencies forthe effective provision of
national SAR services. The Committee‟sremit is to offer views to ministers on improving SAR capabilities and theeffectiveness and
co-operation of SAR providers. Themembership of the UKSAR Strategic Committee is confined to those departmentswith strategic and policy
responsibilities for search and rescueand to national organisations that contribute significantly to UK SAR.
1.2 UK Emergency Air ResponseWorking Group. The UK SAR Strategic Committee agreed to the formation of a „UKSAR HEMS
Working Group‟ in late 2011 in orderto examine the interaction between SAR and Helicopter Emergency MedicalServices (HEMS) aircraft.
However, it was soon recognised thatthe Group‟s work should be broadened to embrace other emergency air responseoperations. The Group
therefore adopted the title of the UKEmergency Air Response (EAR) Working Group in order to better describe itscomposition and functions.
The membership of this Group was drawnfrom organisations with responsibility for providing medical services, searchand rescue, fire and
rescue services, police aviation andaviation legal compliance matters, including the following:
Association of Air Ambulances (AAA)
Association of Ambulance ChiefExecutives
Associationof Chief Police Officers (ACPO)
British Association of Immediate Care(BASICS)
Care Quality Commission (CQC)
Chief Fire Officers Association (CFOA)
Civil Aviation Authority
Department of Health (DH) – Co Chair
Department for Transport (DfT)
HM Coastguard (HMCG)
Ministry of Defence – Air RescueCoordination Centre – Co Chair
NHS Commissioners
NHS - Resilience & PreparednessImplementation
NationalPolice Air Service
Scottish Ambulance Service
Assistance has also kindly beenprovided by the Association of
Chief PoliceOfficers Scotland (SAR Portfolio)
[/QUOTE]