Wagging Finger

Hang on a minute. Are we forgetting the comprehensive spending review? ALL public services are being hit, some worse than others.

When Policing is being slashed across the board by 20% in some areas we need to be very careful, air support does not arrest people, yes we are a 'force multiplier' but we are an expensive department, like dogs horses and divers.

Chief officers have less money to provide a service to the public and they have a duty to maintain front line resources and that is the officer on the ground.

Time for a reality check people, we are an expensive luxury that got bloated in the days of plenty and I'm sorry to say the good old days are exactly that, the old days. Moaning about how good and effective we used to be will solve nothing. Do you think the diving supervisor and the mounted boss are not doing the same, of course they are, but they are quickly coming to terms with the CSR and cutting their cloth accordingly.

NPAS has had the misfortune to come along at the same time as the CSR and is being blamed for the cuts, they were coming any way, the country is in sh1t state and we cannot sit here saying we should be ring fenced, how many cops does a fully role equipped helicopter buy, sell an aircraft and you can save a lot of jobs.

To put a slightly different slant on this and using an example from private industry, how would the 'moaners' on here feel if the Home Sec had said, "we will keep all helicopters with no base closures, but you all have to take a 10% wage cut to cover it" anyone want to volunteer for that?

The Merseyside unit closed well before that region joined NPAS. So how is that being blamed on NPAS? SYP fought to keep their aircraft and still have it, why didn't Merseyside do the same?

Fly_For_Fun

There seems to be two discussions at present. # 1The standard of leadership at unit level
A wise man indeed.
And #2 The arbitrary approach to the closing of units.
So long as the maths work out, and I believe they do, the cost of air support is irrelevant. It saves more than it costs, by spades full in my opinion, the only question is positioning of the units. Getting rid of Henlow in the first days of this project was a mistake and has left a hole in reasonable cover, but we are where we are, and until the Met come on stream the SE region will have to soldier on.

I wonder how the service provided is viewed by the troops on the streets, and are they calling for helicopters as often as they would if it were their own county's asset?

Wagging Finger

FFF, I know where you are coming from with this, but it still remains a big ticket item, A fully role equipped airframe weighs in at the 4 to six million mark (depending who you listen to) with a running cost of around 1 million a year (for some of the larger units). Some units and by some very wise peoples admission did not turn a blade for some days.

Along comes a CSR and Chief Officers (Who are mainly politicians and accountants these days, by necessity rather than choice in many cases!) Have a look around at where they can cut the money from, what is the number one obvious target in such a case?

Anyone naive enough to think that the cost cutting will stop at this should come and visit me with all their personal money, I have a great pyramid scheme that can make us all rich!!!!

With another round of CSR coming and who knows what further down the line, we could be seeing the last days of Police air support in it's current form.

We are not the only area of Policing that is suffering and regardless of anything it's the Police on the doorstep that the public want when they call for help more than anything else.

tigerfish

But are you just laying back & letting it happen?

When my local unit was threatened I wrote to the local media & got several half pages of stories demanding that the unit be saved and it was! Local MP's were badgered the PA written to. No stone was left unturned.

Its survival of the fittest. If you are strong enough and can make enough noise the public will pitch in. Whatever the state of general Police/public relations Air support is appreciated by the public because it has proved to be so effective.

Yes wagging finger there were a very small number of units that did not present well, but they were hugely outnumbered by the efficient ones who did.

I think part of the problem is this:- Here in the UK we stick to the traditional ways of doing things until the problem becomes really serious. Then we do something about it. If the problem then reduces we blindly revert to the old ways again, hoping that the criminal won't notice.

The only trouble with doing that with air support is that you cannot just throw a switch and get it back. Even if an airframe was available it takes a long time to get the crews back to a level of efficiency. The kit is a bit complicated and advanced nowadays.

Yes I'm too old and over the hill today. but I can still tell when we have not got it right. And this is a game where not having it right can cost a hell of a lot!

Finally & just to clarify, I was not having a go about the leadership exhibited at unit level. No my ire is aimed higher than that, at my old level. It is they who should be fighting these attacks on the service. And it goes wider than just Air support.

Tigerfish

Wagging Finger

A lot of effort that in the end will result in the government doing exactly what they want in the end, it may just take them a little longer, Sheehy=winsor!!!

Very difficult to quantify how much 'a hell of a lot is' and the good old adage of 'a bird in the hand' will spring to mind when talking about savings. It's like saying what is the value of an cop stood on a street corner, some will say 'a hell of a lot' some will say nothing (usually those who live a couple of corners away.).

MightyGem

Oh yes!

Neither would we.

It was part of the preparation for NPAS.

Good question, well presented, deserves an answer. No idea.

jayteeto

Cynics may point to the fact that the merseyside chief con put forward the suggestion of a nationwide force to gain promotion, offering his own unit up to show how unbiased he was. Everyone knew he wanted the met job and where is he now???? Oh yes!

tigerfish

Could be something to do with the fact that their Chief at the time was Bernard Hogan Howe, the sponsor of the report that led to NPAS.

Possibly it was him trying to show that "If he could do it!"

Whatever! They were a damned good unit. At least the major criminals in Liverpool thought so, they tried to destroy it more than once. I visited just after the death sentence was announced. The sense of betrayal was all invasive. They couldn't believe why they had been sacrificed in that way. It wasn't even as if they were one of the laid back units. No- they went for every criminal and car thief they could, and were bloody good at it too.

The criminals that tried to destroy them shouldn't have bothered, but I bet they didn't guess who was going to do the job for them!

Tigerfish

jayteeto

Tigerfish, thank you, that summed our unit up nicely. We 'had our legs done' by those who should have looked after us. In my new life, I get to speak to police officers regularly, the most damning statement???????

"We dont bother asking for the helicopter any more, by the time it gets here it's always too late"

I have heard this many many times.

cyclic stop

The same happens in Herts and Bed's too I'm told Thats efficiency from NPAS

Wagging Finger

To be pedantic, who says it's too late? Is that the cop on the ground who can't be bothered to wait until an aircraft arrives or because the are getting pressured because there are too few resources on the ground (CSR anyone?)

Comments like that are anecdotal at best and at worst plain untrue, if its too late after ten minutes it was probably to late after ten seconds, most 'offenders gone to ground' calls need to be swamped by the ground units and well contained or by the time an aircraft does arrive it will be too late, whenever that aircraft arrives.

Who here has turned up to do a search to find chummy hiding behind a wall listening to everything the cops union meeting is discussing feet away.

tigerfish

Well you certainly are in a world of your own WF. I have never seen you come down on the side of efficient air support. Are you employed by NPAS by any chance?

TF

Wagging Finger

Re Are you employed by NPAS?

Directly or indirectly?

I work at a base that has or will become part of NPAS,

I'm all for efficiency, but I do get annoyed when the 'air support never turn up on time' argument gets thrown up. If the cop on the street cannot be bothered to wait that extra few minutes you have to question whether they were convinced there was any one there in the first place.

Sadly NPAS is the face of progress, we can either like it or........go back to district and drive an area car. I know which I prefer!!

timex

Fair point, however you seem to be the lone voice in the wilderness. Do you think that everybody else is wrong ?

tigerfish

Well I suppose that comment that you hate so much, may be as a direct result of Police Officers, who used to have quick access to air support, now having to wait longer for it.

Now let me see. Do you not think that that might just be as a result of the fleet being cut by a third!

You know, when you have your back to the wall, and the nasties are crowding in to get you. It was very heartening to know that help was just a few moments away. So that is why it is bloody annoying when someone then comes along, and removes that source of help and places it further away.

Its even more annoying when they tell bloody lies about it, and try & tell you that actually its much better for you, because you now have access to three helicopters instead of one. The fact that they are all bloody miles away is not much help when youv'e just had your head kicked in.

Perhaps that might be why the bobby on the beat is not so impressed with the new arrangement.

tigerfish

TheDog

Nice post TF.

Wagging Finger

Sorry but that post is based purely on emotion and conjecture. More so it is proof that all of us on here are too far devolved from beat policing to be commenting on it, I count myself in that group. What I will say about policing are issues of fact not speculation.

A cops nose will always tell them that the suspect is there or not, cops being cops they will then take the easy way out, that may include a decision to avoid the paperwork or working over, but I stand by my previous post, if chummy is there after ten seconds and the containment is adequate he will be there in ten or fifteen minutes when the dog/helicopter arrives.

On the issue of an officer getting his head kicked in, I don't know what things were like in your day but from 1000 feet there is the square root of nothing that I can do to stop the poor sod on the ground getting beaten by a determined opponent, all I can do is wait until ground units arrive and direct them in to exact revenge.

Now both of the above are directly affected by officer numbers on the ground and we all know that they are being cut, by up to 20% in some places. That is not the fault of NPAS although it does seem to be getting the blame for most things these days.

I see from your posts that you foresaw these woes and were punished for that, presumably that was pre NPAS. Sadly those woes affect not only air support but cops on the ground, and to be brutal if you ask most cops which they would rather have, another fully crewed area car or a helicopter when you need it they would probably not be picking a helicopter, they will be wanting some relief from the constant call to call that they are now doing.

I am not NPAS public relations, I do have some concerns about NPAS but unlike others on here I am willing to give it a chance and see how it goes, not by shouting from the sidelines but by getting involved in the game.

tigerfish

WF, You seem to suggest that I might not know what I am talking about, so perhaps I should explain. 30 years Police service. Directly involved with the development of air support 1984 - close of service in Dec1998. Helicopter industry Police liasion 1999-2011.

Yes I have been opposed to NPAS, but mainly because it had one objective only, that of saving money. Had there been any informed intention to increase efficiency and effectiveness it would have received my full and unstinting support, for I have always belived in the correctness of a National Police Air wing delivered regionally.

But it was set up with deliberately no involvement from those who knew anything about air support. But more importantly it used spin and "Political speak" to try and convince people who did know a bit about it that less was actually more, and that the sacrifice of such units as Merseyside, and Chilterns North ( Bedfordshire ) and others, was actually a good thing!

No WF It was the way it was done and the mess that its left us in that I object to. I accept that its here now and we have to live with it, I also accept that the current management is an improvement on what went before. but NEVER try to tell me that its all an improvement OR that the guys at the front end of Policing are getting as much support as they did before.

The new system will work for big pre planned and major events. So the Chiefs and Politicians will be able to say it is a success. But we developed air support to be available quickly to the bobby on the ground who was in trouble or could not locate the fugitive. It was also directed at curtailing vehicle pursuits. But now with longer transits it is less effective in that role.

As I said earlier, it all depends on where you place your values. Oh and of course LEADERSHIP! ( Sorry to use that dirty word again )

tigerfish

Wagging Finger

First of all, i have never said such a thing and do not think it. so please do not try to put words in my mouth, speaking of which in previous posts, you have quoted,
Please see here the ACPO press release (no doubt you will call spin) clearly stating that Air Support will go from 33 aircraft to 26, now even by my maths thats a drop of 7 which is less than a quarter and closer to a fifth. No doubt if you keep quoting sensationalist figures like 'cut by a third' people will start to believe it.

I have the greatest of respect for all on here but hate to see some of the untruths bandied about as fact, that is almost the definition of spin isn't it?

I could put my qualifications and background on here but I choose not to, I do not feel the need to either I hope that my arguments and comments will stand for themselves. I know who I am and I know what I know about Policing and air support.

No doubt someone will pick every word I have just typed in an attempt to lessen their impact or to misquote me as an individual. Perhaps its time for me to bow out for a while as come back later as others have done in the past.

tigerfish

WF, my apologies, - I did not mean to attack you personally, you have every right to your opinion, as of course do I. Only History will prove who was right so do not withdraw!

It is merely that I am fiercely protective of what we built up between about 1989 and 2009. Expensive yes, but not as expensive as the crime rate we were fighting then. Economies were required, that is totally accepted but not in the way that came about. Crime tends to be reciprocal so if we take down our guard??

As has already been said we must now work with it to make the best of it. But Please never try to tell me that this is better.

Incidentaly I think that current fleet of 26 a/c includes the 3 spares! It is not 26 actual operational machines. Happy to be corrected.

TF