Jetstar Pilot Council Snubs AIPA

[amos2]

Look!...to be quite frank, this nonsence is just going on and on!

It's obvious to me, at least, that there is, in general, an agreement that the Jetstar Pilot Council is thinking about selling their pilots down the drain!

It's also obvious to me that the Qantas mainline pilots will support the Jetstar pilots if the whole thing goes pearshaped and the jetstar pilots go on strike!

Well, that's the impression I get reading some of the posts here from Keg and others!

Have I got this right?...or am I misreading the situation??

[Lagrange]

Firstly, Bankangle50, how can you expect reasonable JQ pilots to take any notice of you if that is the best response or reaction a brother pilot can give- I will spit on you - mate, grow up.

Follow the link Breakright has provided and then consider the questions I posed some time back.

JQ management are not in this EBA amendment to be nice to the pilots.

Pull out last year's QF Annual report. What was AJ's bonus? wow. How will he repeat that this year?

[Keg]

Amos, the J* pilots have a rock solid committment from me to support them to the utmost that the law allows if:

1. They vote down the deal.
2. They sign on to AIPA as members- fully paying ones as I know there are still some legal hurdles here.
3. They ensure that any future negotiations is done by the 'group'.

BTW, that applies also the the Eastern and Sunstate crews. I'd be happy to look at the NJS crews as well but I'm not sure how that deal fully operates.

Good enough for you?

Divided we bet- as it patently obvious by reading any of the contributions from J* members on this thread.

[sby]

For those talking about voting no and than joining with AIPA to get better conditions because AIPA now cares and shares some info for you

-a week ago Aipa emailed all Jet* pilots asking us to call them, which I did and surprise, surprise message left for them and they could not even be bothered calling back. obviously an important topic for them (looks like history repeating)

-I will be voting No but I can certainly understand why this crap deal will get up

[Cruis'in FL410]

To add to that

BankAngle50:
If I see you in the International I hope I can refrain from spitting on you.

Don't put a slur on your fellow QF workers. Heaps of my mates are in QF I'm sure would slap you over the head for a comment like that, act your age. I reakon the variation is a shocking deal, and reflects the contempt that our management has for the bloody hard work we have had to endure since Jetstar's inception. There are still so many unanswered questions, and too much "intent", and "in our best interests" type clauses that, in the past we have been abused with.

As for the arguement of keeping the seniority list intact, the company has shown exactly how it observes the "List". Go down the current list, and find how many F/O's have been "by-passed" due to no fault of their own, except the company mis-managing the list. I am sick of hearing, "don't worry, we will take care of you" crap... (In being by-passed some F/O's have indicated they are already 100,000+ out of pocket)

I would love to get onto the international deal, but not for the conditions in front of me. I voted NO! So just remember this afternoon, when the result is produced and the YES gets up, (thats the feeling around the traps), that there are plenty of us that disagree with this deal, regardless of the outcome. Please don't spit on me, otherwise you will regret the outcome..

Thanks Keg for the advice, and level-headed comments. As "sby" stated, I too rang the APIA number, and left a message over a week ago, with no repsonse. My view, and two cents...

PS: If it settles your mind BankAngle50, I did make it to those high heights of the hold file, only to be told after 10 months of waiting that I was successful in passing, but not competitive enough with others on hold, so no go mate!!!!! Try again in 6 months, but by then I was far far happier on the 7-17 than go through that process again (there are many ways to make some coin than this game)

[J. Packer]

Well I must be confused over some history and facts….

Which pilot group is it that……

Welcomed foreign and domestic strikebreakers from 1989 to join their group?
Would rather see their youngsters hired on jets than a Qantas regional turboprop Captain?
Voted for a B scale for domestic First Officers?
Turned their backs on the Impulse pilots becoming Qantas employees in 2001?
Endorsed Qantas using contract pilots (Impulse) by signing off on their EBA?
Turned their backs on the Jetstar pilots in 2004?
Voted overwhelmingly yes to a MOU that endorsed Jetstar salary rates?
Never voted no to poor EBA deals over a decade of strong Qantas performance?
Voted yes to an EBA that endorses B scale Second Officers based offshore?

No, I am not the one crying. And I don’t care to screw it to the AIPA pilots, but I do pity their arrogance, ignorance, and selfish ineptitude. It is common knowledge that 200 mainline A330 F/Os will say yes to big salary cuts on mainline salary rates for a promotion. Yes, I am looking out for my own interests, but the difference is I don’t pretend otherwise.

[Woomera]

BankAngle50 will not be participating in this, or any other discourse, for the next two weeks...and that period only to give me time to chat to the other Woomera...it may yet become permanent.

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Nice to see your humility on display again Keg. Once again you have failed to recognise the plain truth of the matter. Past arrogance and lack of support for JQ guys seems to have been conveniently dismissed. Do you really think a professional group will willingly fall on its sword for people who put posts on the net like yours?

You only have to take a look at the disgusting muck on crewroom to get a picture of the distain that we are held in at QF. And you guys hold yourselves up as the bastions of professional aviation. In 40 years of flying ive never seen such a childlike and pathetic attitude towards other in the industry.

What a wonderful example you set for future aviators in Aus.

DM

[blueloo]

Douglas Mcdonnal, I suggest you take a bit more time out to think about the rubbish you are posting. Qrewroom, is not, and never has been representative of most QF mainliners. It is read by many, but only a few regulars post on it. It is the same names over and over again.

Most mainliners also are amazed at the rubbish posted on it - take the extreme postings on pprune, and you have in most cases the same extreme views on Qrewroom.

If you are basing your decsions on whats on Qrewroom, then well, you deserve the outcome.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Having just read that EBA link I am a little confused about the 'cruise FO' getting 60%....are we talking dedicated cruise FOs? Sounds a little like they are playing with job descriptions to get around 3 crew CAO48 exemptions.

Keg, Amos2 etc with all due respect....NO-ONE believes the bulk of QF mainline pilots will stick their necks out for J* pilots if they vote the variations down.

QF mainline pilots do not, as a group, have a history of doing so...not even for each other let alone a separate group....lets take a moment to consider the deal you guys voted 'yes' to for your, soon to be, Singapore based colleages. It actually makes the J* EBA look GOOD!!!

Whichever way the J* pilots vote is their business and, in my opinion, any J* pilot who votes 'no' thinking Keg and his workmates will stand up for him is naive.

Vote no if you find the variations unacceptable after rational discourse with your elected representatives and peers...not based on the rantings of a very few pilots on here.

[Jetsbest]

Mr Packer..

There are some needling elements of truth in what you say, but in defence of the 'good blokes' out there in QF (many of whom btw have voted NO to the deals to which you refer, and for the same reasons being advocated for J* too);

- more that half of all QF mainline pilots joined since 1995, not to mention the even larger proprtion of QF-group pilots,
- AIPA has been repeatedly told it does not control the recruiting process and resultant seniority,
- most are NOT happy with the apparent nepotism evident at times,
- the short-sighted B-scale vote by the sub-set known as A-pilots also affected the subsequent command pay of the F/O voters themselves, but has since been paid for again in removing its inequity,
- Ignoring J* pilots was not the agenda of many (maybe even most) QF pilots, but it has served people of influence at various junctures to sell the line that it 'just had to be this way' (promotion? bonuses? promises?). I wanted J* pilots who met the mystical QF-group standard to be employed from the hold file on QF pay... not told 'no job here but how about J*'. I believe significant 'poaching' of candidates eminently suitable for ANY company has cost those individuals a start date in QF through the expediency of convenient divide (now being followed by conquer?); an obvious remuneration cost to those individuals but hard to quantify or prove.
- I thought the job-swap MOU was close-run rather than overwhelming, especially when considering it had no obvious relevance to Captains at the time, who mostly seemed to vote along 'party lines'. The initial spin sounded good (sound familiar?) and as a trusting soul I voted. When the more sinister aspects emerged I was unable to reverse my online vote. I'm not the only one. I felt duped and I'm now much less trusting of the non-specific language used in documents like MOUs and the J* EBA Revision document. Having said that, the MOU is still a 2-way street; why have apparently no J* pilots tried it?
- Re 'never voting no'... Well you get that with such diverse self-interest as exists in QF. J* must be different. Spin and threats from management (sound familiar?), clouded or ambiguous motives by some in power (sound familiar?), differences in time-to-go, and apathy from some who's careers are most affected by the vote are all in the mix. I accept it's but one of many faults in the AIPA group, but the J* pilots are doing it too. Many rebuffs are as childish as the accusations but I maintain that it might help to listen to what has transpired in recent AIPA history and learn from the literal contractual pitfalls of this industrial relations climate.
- Finally, as far as I can tell there are 117 F/Os and 133 Captains on A330 in QF TODAY. There are a few more in training but, as I've told my kids a million times, don't exaggerate! And as for common knowledge about pay cuts and promotion; just saying it doesn't make it so! An annoying part is that pilot managers claim they didn't know of the J* A330 extraction until the day before the announcement so, on the face of it, a secretive commercial decision has apparently forced the imminent over-manning of the QF A330 fleet. You can bet the QF pilots will be conveniently blamed for that cost. Plus management wouldn't be deliberately deceptive would they?

In review I realise there are a lot of circular arguments going on in this thread. What jumps out at me is the striking resemblance the comments made by the J*-biased demographic bear to those by the QF-biased demographic! Neither side wants to be told by, or learn from, the other.

Perhaps the recruiters and psychologists do have it consistently right for pilots' temperament and disposition; deep down we're all the same!?!

[Keg]

I have to say that repeating myself time and again is getting a little tiring but I'll try again.

I'm the first one to admit that AIPA (including me as a member) dropped the ball on Impulse, J* and the regionals over a significant period of time! We may be able to speculated why that was but in short, we'd be guessing and in some respects, who cares how we got to where we are now, the important things is where do we ALL go from here. Past arrogance 'conveniently dismissed'? WTF am I supposed to do now about poor actions by the COM five years ago. For the last five years I've been banging on about the importance of working together. I may have gotten more vocal over the last three years as confidence in both my own beliefs and the assurance that my operational reputation (such as it exists) pretty much safe guarded me from being shafted elsewhere but it's been a pretty consistent theme. Just because AIPA has cocked it up in the past doesn't mean that we should continue to do things seperately. An aviator is supposed to learn from past mistakes. I have. Can you?

DM, you talk about the J* guys falling on their swords for people like me. First point, I'm not telling people to say 'no' for me as a first point, I'm trying to reassure them that I value them a lot more than the current crappy offer them. After that comes the fact that it means that I may have the opportunity a J* aircraft at some stage in the future on half decent pay and conditions. Second point, J* falling on their swords for me? Again, the sword will disembowel J* crew before it gets to QF crew. You don't see that at all!

If you are concerned about a childish and pathetic attitude towards others then perhaps a look in the mirror is in order. I'm not going to defend my colleagues behaviour because I don't believe in defending the indefensible- except from over zealous prosecution that distorts the truth- as some of my comments on Qrewroom and here would have already shown. My colleagues may articulate venom in their posts but I'm not sure that is any worse than your 'what have you ever done for us' and the 'I can't wait to stick it to the arrogant mainline crew' attitude that I see from youself and others on this forum.

I'm comfortable with the points I'm articulating in these posts as an example to future generations....perhaps you should check six on yours!

Chimbu, 'stick neck out' for J* crew if they vote it down? That implies that we all need to go on strike if it goes down. With respect, I don't think we need to go anywhere close to that! Further, I would sincerely hope that no J* pilot votes for this on whether they think I will stand up for them or not. I would hope that they would know that if they say 'no' then AIPA is prepared to assist to get them a better deal. I also hope that they vote for this deal on the basis of whether it is a good deal or not.

Actually, that final issue is the main point in all of this. Despite all the comments back and forward, no one has yet articulated a position that says that this is a 'great deal' and should be voted 'yes' accordingly. It's been said that 'it's the best we can do', it's been said that it's 'guarantees our futures' (I've heard that before) but NO ONE has said this is a great deal and worthy of a yes vote. In seven pages of discussion, THAT is a telling issue!

[Going Boeing]

Chimbu

QF pilots (with a small number of exceptions) do support the Jet* guys. It's very clear to us that we will not be doing the flying but it is in our interests to assist J* pilots in getting the best possible remuneration for flying widebodies as it reduces the pressure on us during EBA's. We also know that management will tell mainline pilots to fly the B787 for the same rate as J* otherwise more aircraft will be delivered to J* instead of mainline. By the way, in case the J* guys don't know it - QF managements current plan is for the B787-9's which start delivery in 2011 to go to Jetstar with the B787-8's that Jetstar will be flying from 2008 being transferred to QF mainline. The Jetstar fleet will end up being purely -9's so the pay that they agree to now will be the rate for the larger variant which has the most revenue potential and thus allow for higher salaries.


Re your comment wrt the LH EBA and the SIN basings for S/O's. The facts are the QF management was going to proceed with the basings irrespective of the result of the EBA. The "yes" vote resulted in better conditions for the S/O basing than what management were offering - not great conditions, just better conditions. There was nothing in our Certified Agreement that could have prevented them proceeding with the basing so the conclusion, made by some on this forum, that we sold out the S/O's to achieve a pay rise is incorrect.

[DutchRoll]

Aaah. Now I feel refreshed. Woomeras, with all due respect I think you guys generally do a great (and possibly thankless) job, but that was a little heavy-handed given what I wrote, my (now blemished) record on pprune, and the fact that it was without warning. Feedback from some very reasonable people I know over the last couple of days seems to support this. Also, if the 'banned' html page is going to bandy around legal terms, could someone - admin I guess - please read up on 'slander' and 'libel'. I might as well be accused of the correct offence. Ta. Dutchy's mini-rant over (and no personal offence intended).
On Jetstar, as you may now have guessed, some extraordinary things have been put into print recently. A letter from the JPC chairman. A letter from the AIPA president, and an eye-popping statement from a personal witness to a rather important phone conversation disputing certain written accounts.
Whatever the case, public statements made/written by certain important individuals do not appear to be entirely consistent with the current evidence at hand. I strongly feel that Jetstar International 'negotiations' deserve intense scrutiny, and it is entirely reasonable to intensely criticize some aspects of this affair (and in doing so I must obviously be more careful not to slide into somewhat dry satire). All this argument may be objectionable to some, but there is a strong and understandable feeling that a 'slippery slope' down which commercial aviation conditions of employment may slide, is being carelessly created by certain actions.

[rescue 1]

Any truth to the rumour that AIPA have progressed the case to court, to discuss the international flying?

[J. Packer]

Jetsbest….

Thank you for correcting my error on A330 F/O numbers, 200 was the approximate total I had for A330 mainline pilots, I correct my previous post entry of number 200 to 100.

Excuses and excuses. AIPA may not control the recruiting process but its members do control their vote. They have never instigated a vote against nepotism or contract pilots or management job sweeteners. They have always voted yes to pay increases below the inflation rate, B scales for their fellow members, and a MOU endorsing Jetstar pay rates. Whether voting no would ever have any effect on the company’s actions is no excuse, signing off on an EBA effectively endorses the company’s position. Why have no J* pilots tried the MOU? Because it is a backwards step (we will all be Airbus Captains within 3 years of start-up). And just look at some of the posts here to see some of the types one would be flying with. It is a bit rich to ask J* pilots to learn from your mistakes, when your group has no evidence of having ever done so themselves. And another thing, the sooner you blokes realise that Jetstar pilots are Qantas pilots, the better off you will be (in touch with reality). It is only a matter of (short) time before we have J class seats on all our jets and our tails are painted red and white. And that is all I have to say on this matter.

[longjohn]

How ironic Mr Packer that you are the antithesis of your namesake.

I have said here before that the degradation of the position of Airline pilot is far from over, so far JetStar pilots are so far ahead in the race to the bottom they must be getting very lonely.

Money is not the issue, it is the respect which it commands. Unfortunately that is the way that todays society sees and values you and your profession. That is why people ask what you do, they are judging your status in society and therefore making it easier to judge you themselves.

I have no doubt that Jetstar pilots will comfortably feed their families, but how long before their friends, family etc. start wondering why your standard of living is not higher? When you tell them that pilots don't earn anywhere near what they 'used to' will you also proudly state that you were partly responsible for that so that you could get into a bigger a/c or gain a command in world record time?

Do you think the leprechaun respects you? Ironically, he is looking for his command on the backs of yours.

Do you think Jetstar management respect you? Yes surrrre they will in the morning.

Will the Jetstar pilots stand proud in the bar when regional pilots start complaining that management views their salaries as too high because of the new benchmark set by Jetstar pilots?

When you try to piss off overseas how do you expect to be received in airlines run by ex pats who fought for a certain standard of conditions in that unmentionable year?

Is it the thongs and sarongs began brigade you intend to fearlessly Command whose approval you are so desperately seeking? Find out how much RIO TINTO values a 22 year old crane driver in the Kimberly, yes you will be commanding far less $$$. In fact, find out how much the JFS refueller is getting and have a good think about it.

Do you tell people you work for Jetstar, or the Qantas group, or just go the whole way....? Painting a roo on your tail will simply not do it.

But I suspect you already know that.

Think about it, respect, it is hard to earn but thats why everyone wants it.

[Lagrange]

Don't know % who voted, but the JQ boys and girls have vote a very big yes.

now for the fine print.

[J. Packer]

longjohn….

Respect eh? Very hard to have any respect from pilots that say do as I say, but not at I do. Just look at the recent history of AIPA group that I summarised in previous post, and tell me about respect again. AIPA pilots have not shown any respect for each other, let alone other pilot groups. Please remember that the Qantas mainline pilots overwhelmingly endorsed Jetstar pay scales when they voted the MOU. They thought it quite alright for other pilots in Qantas to be on a B scale, but suddenly now that it will apply to them, they cry like a baby. That you, some drunks in a bar, or some 89 expats running an overseas airline (hard to believe) do not respect me, I really could not care in the least. I respect myself and have the respect of many that I consider credible. I am proud to tell anyone I fly for Jetstar. It seems the last people in Australia to realise Jetstar is Qantas are the mainline pilots. It is pointless to say anything more on the subject, been done to death.

[Capt Fathom]

now for the fine print.

Sorry...it was all in pencil on the back of a beer coaster! Suckers