Jetstar Pilot Council Snubs AIPA

[Keg]

Originally Posted by Douglas Mcdonnell

...of their now isolated "Collegues".

'Isolated'? No more or less than QF mainline drivers at the moment! However, what J* drivers WILL have in a 'no' vote is the chance is to go back to the table and start again. Contractors will COST QF a truck load more money than giving you guys another 15% on top of your current crappy offer.

Originally Posted by Douglas Mcdonnell

Just look at the level of support that has been forthcoming thus far.

Yes, lets look at them. Contact made by a myriad of QF pilots- both COM members and others- to the JPC offering to help, telling them some of the traps, wanting to provide a united front. A lot of QF guys on here saying 'good luck with the international flying but here is the down side to the agreement'. People pointing out the looming pilot shortage and demand for experienced crew. QF drivers explaining the REALITY of interational flying on the type of ops you are talking about doing. No, no support at all. Of course, I forgot. All this was AFTER the JPC signed a confidentiality agreement to negotiate terms! Yes, the QF pilot group wouldn't have even have known that there was the possibility of offering assistance.

As for working together, you don't think that knowing that QF was already talking to J* about the international ops would have helped sway the vote in our EBA? Don't talk about support DM. You guys don't even talk the talk let alone even think about walking the walk.

Originally Posted by Douglas Mcdonnell

Mainline guys looking after Number One. Zero support from the professional benchmark set. How would you vote?
Gorging on panninis DM

See, that's the funny thing Douglas. In your own mind, you do this to spite the QF crew. Whilst we'll take a hit from this, at the end of the day, it'll be YOU stuck on the crap terms and conditions. Our progression will slow a bit but at least it'll still be on more money and more time at home with the family than we'd get picking up 7 in 20 on the woeful deal that you guys get.

So, knock yourself out. Go for it. Vote 'yes'. See how good the deal turns out to be. Oh, by the way, in a few years time when the rose coloured glasses come off, maybe then you'll be able to see the couple of thousand mainline drivers who would've stood beside you for a better deal. Unfortunately, in a couple of years time after you've said yes, they'll be saying 'we told you so'.

Short sighted, myopic and illogical thinking. Group think at its worst. Good one!

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Keg, its quaint theory that others want to keep on working to spite mainline pilots. There are actually other piklots employed in this country that dont work for mainline. Believe it or not, this one is not all about you. Where were you in 89? Super concerned for the welfare of other pilots in the country. I think not. Once bitten twice shy?

I think you have answered the question with your last post!!!

DM

[Keg]

Originally Posted by Douglas Mcdonnell

Keg, its quaint theory that others want to keep on working to spite mainline pilots....
DM

Sorry DM, you don't get away with distorting my comments so cheaply. Nice journo trick though....use a comment that i did make (spite) and attach it to something I never said 'keep on working'! It's a shame you can't stick to the actual merits of the comments instead of going for the cheap shot. Still, par for the course from you so far.

Read my lips again. You can have 100/100 commands on this new thing (you'll have close to this anyway because I can't see 7/20 mainline drivers taking up the crappy offer) but YOUR position is articulated very clearly in your post at 17:41. Let me sum up.

1. You'll say 'yes' because AIPA or mainline has never offered any help. Incorrect and see my previous post.
2. You'll say 'yes' because if you don't, you'll be isolated. Incorrect, you'll still have jobs (earning $150K plus according to Rick) on the A320. You'll still have a bloody good chance of getting a better deal.
3. You'll say 'yes' because otherwise, F/Os won't get progression. Short sighted because they can have that anyway into mainline if they want (on much better conditions than in J*) and the 'progression' they get in J* will be at significant expense of family and life in general.

So, when you use that logic and then attack me on what you think was my stance in '89, that absolutely IS spite.

Oh, and as to '89. I was learning to fly at Camden whilst working a permanent night shift as a security guard at the Regent Hotel in Sydney. I started with QF in '95. I was one of the people that approached the AIPA president in 2001 and put forward the position that AIPA should be looking after all QF group pilots. I've just finished eight and a half years on the 767 on conditions where the COM at the time (before I was employed) just said 'take the domestic flying and we'll sort out the conditions later'. Myself and many of my colleagues paid for that lack of foresight for a bunch of years. All we're trying to do now is to open your eyes to the same issue- if the terms and conditions aren't great now then expect a very hard road to get them improved.

You can use many things to justify your decision for a 'yes' vote DM, but based on the position you've articulated and the lack of ability to listen to some people who have been screwed over by short sightedness, your decision to vote yes is either spite and/or stupidity. You choose.

[Chimbu chuckles]

When Impulse was first bought out by QF and became Qantas Link the AIPA was approached with a 'shall we join you' question.

The then AIPA Com said..."Cannot happen, sorry, Articles of Association and all that."

Since that time the JPC has negotiated a very competitive package...as an example a 717 Captain at Impulse was on about 90K...now, some 4 years later, with overtime etc etc he's on nearly twice that....not bad negotiating I would suggest.

They have negotiated with management, for the most part, from a basis of mutual respect and trust...TJ being a possible exception...there have been things come up that did not work well from the pilots point of view and from management's also...and they have been fine tuned to everyones benefit.

Since then a new AIPA com has been voted in...and the basic platform of the new AIPA president was 'Limiting the growth of J*'.

Is it little wonder Jetstar pilots see little to be gained from any association with AIPA.

It's not all that dissimilar to the situation when AIPA and AFAP, on behalf of Eastern (and Sunnies from memory) pilots tried to negotiate joining their seniority lists...against managements wishes I might add.

The Eastern/Sunnies guys wanted full intergration based purely on datal seniority...they wanted their senior guys to be senior to great numbers of mainline pilots who had been flying for mainline for years and would not budge....AIPA quite correctly said 'get stuffed'.

Had the regional pilots agreed to be joined on the bottom of the mainline list NOT ONE regional pilot would have been worse off...the majority of the regional pilots would have been, in time, far better off...every one of them would have been senior to every cadet and DE pilot who has joined since that time...and we are talking what...15 years ago nearly?

Now AIPA are behaving in a similar arrogant, short sighted way..to their detriment...not that of J* pilots.

The jetstar pilots quite rightly think "why should we bother?"

The plaintive cries from the mainline pilots of "The JPC is industrially naive and their negotiated conditions are a joke" is just so much desperate and ignorant rubbish.

And the chances of uniting all QF pilots were lost 15 years ago...before J* was even an itch in someones pants.

[Lagrange]

The JQ pilot group have conditions appropriate for a LCC operation. Chimbu is sort of right. AIPA has screwed up over the years because of arrogrance. AFAP, well they are still asleep. But to suggest that JQ management - TJ in or out - can be trusted is a little rich. Do you for one minute think Olmeadow and AJ are not out to screw the best deal for JQ? I posed several questions in a previous post. They need to be considered.

From what I have picked up AJ has told GD he will be his AWA bunny. The devil is in the detail with this EBA and I don't think all the cards are on the table.

The only niave person is the one who has not got all the facts.

[RENURPP]

Since that time the JPC has negotiated a very competitive package...as an example a 717 Captain at Impulse was on about 90K...now, some 4 years later, with overtime etc etc he's on nearly twice that....not bad negotiating I would suggest.

"

The were on $90 then + overtime.
They are on around $120 + overtime.

Not quite $180. and at the overtime rates they get they would have to set up house in the aircraft.

[J. Packer]

Why would any Jetstar pilot ever consider the views of AIPA members?

Let us review the recent history of AIPA pilots:

They never sought a scope clause when Qantas acquired Impulse.
Their chief negotiators have been rewarded with management jobs in Qantas.
They can only achieve salary increases of 1% or less per annum.
They were not respected enough to even be considered when Jetstar was started.
Not long after, they voted yes to a useless exclusive MOU agreement.
They agreed to lower their salary level by 40% overnight (any future promotions).
They agreed to be effectively excluded from future Qantas expansion.
They vote for trade offs on conditions of their own members for personal gain.

In comparison, we will all have A320 Captain positions within a year, 40% salary increases, better salaries than mainline pilots for number of years in Qantas, A330/B787 opportunities, Airbus type ratings with PIC hours on our CVs.

[RENURPP]

Airbus type ratings with PIC hours on our CVs.

This is the important one.

Due to the short sighted views, the opportunity to progress to a better job/company will ve valuable in a year or so.

[mjbow2]

Once again, why should any pilot in Jetstar be paid one cent less than mainline, regardless if an employer decides to label themselves 'low cost'.

Same plane, same lic, same responsibilities.

[blueloo]

Packer you're a smart one aren't you. Lets see, AIPA and QANTAS didnt help us, so screw you guys, were going to screw ourselves!

Kind of has a strange illogical irony to it.........

[Break Right]

J.Packer and co.

If these are your reasons for voting yes, more fool you all.

If you want to sound like cry babies and run to mummy, more fool you all.

If you want to use this vote to get back at Aipa, more fool you all.

If you believe for one second that this is the best deal that you are going to be offered, more fool you!!!!

If you believe that voting yes will give you a better lifestyle compared to the floggings that you get now, more fool you.

Wake up all you porn star jet jocks who are voting yes and realize this is a win win for management not airline pilots across the board. At least in Australia anyway.

Vote it down with a large majority and send management and Rick a clear message that this wide body eba is far from being expectable.

Say hi to mum for me!!!

[Lagrange]

J Packer, 320 on my CV, are you off to Dragon or India?

Remember Gissing promised Graig G that he would deliver parity with DJ. Is he the one that has promised your command within 12 months?

Instant 330 captains can be dual endorsed.

It is not about being in AIPA or any union it is about the best deal you can get. Are you sure you have got it?

[Keg]

Originally Posted by Chimbu chuckles

....a new AIPA com has been voted in...and the basic platform of the new AIPA president was 'Limiting the growth of J*'.
Is it little wonder Jetstar pilots see little to be gained from any association with AIPA.

Wrong Chimbu. It was not about limiting the growth of J*- all of us in the group can see the benefit of having an appropriate model in that market. It was however about limiting the ability of J*'s growth to impact adversely on the pay and conditions of all group pilots and to ensure that the conditions would actually encourage mainline pilots to take up some of the 7:20 positions available in J*.

Still, as many of us have said. Feel free to say 'yes' if you reckon that you're sticking it to us. There is no doubt that we'll take a hit but the bullet has to travel through you guys to get to us! Good luck.

Just say 'no'.

[Gnadenburg]

Originally Posted by Lagrange

J Packer, 320 on my CV, are you off to Dragon or India?

It surprises me the lack of professional due diligence done by Oz pilots. But for those who are just using the luxury of living in Australia to gain hours for foreign jobs, here goes.

Firstly, Dragonair has no requirment for Airbus experience. They have willingly interviewed large numbers of Virgin Blue 737 pilots- but only taken a handful. Secondly, there is a recruitment ban in place by ALPA, which suggests conditions of service are deteriorating. If you can't maintain conditions in J*, how will you go without labour rights in Hong Kong or China?

If Dragonair is so good, why are you waiting? To cock up conditions for Oz pilots at home?

India is an emerging market for expat pilots. It is probably not worth gambling, giveaway widebody flying rates in Australia, on a whim that India could be a haven of highly paid jobs. At the moment, Indian expat flying is not that lucratrive. India has many problems for expat families and rostering is chaotic.

Today's expat pilot market, is not always there tomorrow. It's a shame you don't realise the best deal you will ever get, is the negotiating you will do now.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Keg I don't work there....MANY mates who do...just giving a non emotional perspective...a little balance.

Lot of emotional missreading of T&Cs going on at mainline, from what I hear....what was that one about 9 days off, in home port, in 9 mths

[Hans Solo]

Lagrange,
Check your PM's

[Keg]

Thanks Chimbu, in that case, it's your mates who are wrong about the ARG's platform!

The other points still hold with respect to your mates!

[Jetsbest]

I endorse what Keg said too Chimbu. (in various posts)

I'm disappointed by the odd redneck over-reaction from some AIPA members but some in J* are also mis-reading or mis-representing everything I've heard the present AIPA president say... and I've been listening pretty intently to every word on this issue because it affects me more than many.

No doubt a case of three sides to every story? Ours, theirs & the truth!

[Break Right]

for everyone that thinks that they have read the eba but really have not
click on the download
http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=40109

[BankAngle50]

Completely UNACCEPTABLE!!!

Woomera