LEEDS 5
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Leeds Approach. Please if you are going to start banging your drum again, would you be kind enough to do it on the Church Fenton thread you created. Leave the Leeds thread for discussing happenings at LBA. You have made your veiws clear on this thread already. Those that wish to debate Leeds East becoming the new Yorkshire international can have their discussions on your new thread. I may even read it from time to time. I hope your dreams for CF come true but for now we have an airport in Leeds that seems to operate ok despite all its insurmountable problems.
Ok you want to talk about LBA? The airport has gained a new route to Kefalonia and lost established routes to Toulouse, La Rochelle and Sardinia. It has also lost routes to the Capital cities of Copenhagen, Berlin, Edinburgh and Islamabad in recent seasons. Summer 2015 shows a reduction in the number of rotations compared to 2014 by based operator Jet2. Let's see what 2016 brings. There were 3x as many rotations to Paris CDG in the early 1980s compared to what the airport has now. In the 1990s onward we had a multiple Brussels service and yet 25 years later it's gone! Another Capital city connection lost because the airport is not accessible by train or from the motorway. I could go on and on. I don't beat the drum it has been beating itself for 40+ years. Yorkshire needs a less restricted more suitable airport.
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No it doesn't, it just needs a better MAN.
We've got more than enough airports killing each other thank you very much, the ROI would be laughable IMHO.
We've got more than enough airports killing each other thank you very much, the ROI would be laughable IMHO.
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So lad you think you have a monopoly on care and how this part of Yorkshire works..So someone flying into London wants to get to Leeds, the vast majority of interliners are going to and from home, if you are a tourist or in business London will be a primary port of call..I hate to pee on your parade but, the fastest way from London to Leeds is by the excellent train service, about 2 hours and they go regularly and more than that they drop off in the centre of Leeds..Otherwise they would have to parp about out to Heathrow, go through etc etc..time is money in business
Why in the name of God would they want to drop off half way to Harrogate or somewhere to the east of the A1??..ok in your world they obviously would but trust me, I know business..Anyway best of luck with your dream and if it comes off fine but in the meantime please take Hooded`s advice..
Sorry forget to add that tourists usually make for york, which again the train does very well,with food and drink available.You don`t see many tourists with cameras out at Sheepscar intersection or the bottom of Briggate (not unless they are lost)
Why in the name of God would they want to drop off half way to Harrogate or somewhere to the east of the A1??..ok in your world they obviously would but trust me, I know business..Anyway best of luck with your dream and if it comes off fine but in the meantime please take Hooded`s advice..
Sorry forget to add that tourists usually make for york, which again the train does very well,with food and drink available.You don`t see many tourists with cameras out at Sheepscar intersection or the bottom of Briggate (not unless they are lost)
Last edited by paully; 6th May 2015 at 09:04.
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You've travelled hours from San Francisco (or Beijing) made a connection in England's famous capital and begun your flight to England's biggest and one of its most well known counties. It's May and you have looked forward to your brief visit for months.
You hold in the air above Leeds Bradford Airport and then have to divert back to London two hours after you set off. Exhausted now. Is this passenger encouraged to visit Yorkshire again?
Not a very good advert for Yorkshire. It is simply not good enough and in real terms there is absolutely no reason for it. I wont shut up about it until something is done about it. This is my right as a citizen of England and Yorkshire. Perhaps I care more about West Yorkshire than you do Paul? Civil aviation in Yorkshire is the joke of Europe.
You hold in the air above Leeds Bradford Airport and then have to divert back to London two hours after you set off. Exhausted now. Is this passenger encouraged to visit Yorkshire again?
Not a very good advert for Yorkshire. It is simply not good enough and in real terms there is absolutely no reason for it. I wont shut up about it until something is done about it. This is my right as a citizen of England and Yorkshire. Perhaps I care more about West Yorkshire than you do Paul? Civil aviation in Yorkshire is the joke of Europe.
That particular flight arrived at the LBIA hold with over 70 mins of holding fuel available. How long did he hold for, roughly 45 minutes? Whilst other aircraft were landing, he then set off back to LHR. Why? Why not MAN, LPL, NCL, MME or another Yorkshire airport - DSA? Why wouldn't they divert into DSA and set you off on a quick coach journey to LBIA? On top of that, why would they return to LHR, which was suffering from long delays due to heavy winds?
British Airways wanted their aircraft back in LHR as soon as possible, due to the aforementioned delays. BA had already cancelled flights for later on in the day. One of these cancelled flights was the early afternoon LHR-LBA rotation. So not only have they not taken you anywhere, they've cancelled the next flight to your destination.
Less than 10 minutes after the BA decided to return to Heathrow, visibility was up to 3000. BA's indecisiveness and preferential routing are what caused yesterdays delays and cancellations. Not LBIA. So don't try and use their mistakes as a discredit to LBIA, or Yorkshire.
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British Airways wanted their aircraft back in LHR as soon as possible, due to the aforementioned delays. BA had already cancelled flights for later on in the day. One of these cancelled flights was the early afternoon LHR-LBA rotation. So not only have they not taken you anywhere, they've cancelled the next flight to your destination.
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MAN was asked by BA Operations to accept the divert and bus the passengers, so was likely the Captains decision to return to LHR.
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You can't blame LBIA for that. Sure, it's altitude and location do cause a higher frequency of weather related diversions/cancellations, however, not on this occasion.
That particular flight arrived at the LBIA hold with over 70 mins of holding fuel available. How long did he hold for, roughly 45 minutes? Whilst other aircraft were landing, he then set off back to LHR. Why? Why not MAN, LPL, NCL, MME or another Yorkshire airport - DSA? Why wouldn't they divert into DSA and set you off on a quick coach journey to LBIA? On top of that, why would they return to LHR, which was suffering from long delays due to heavy winds?
British Airways wanted their aircraft back in LHR as soon as possible, due to the aforementioned delays. BA had already cancelled flights for later on in the day. One of these cancelled flights was the early afternoon LHR-LBA rotation. So not only have they not taken you anywhere, they've cancelled the next flight to your destination.
Less than 10 minutes after the BA decided to return to Heathrow, visibility was up to 3000. BA's indecisiveness and preferential routing are what caused yesterdays delays and cancellations. Not LBIA. So don't try and use their mistakes as a discredit to LBIA, or Yorkshire.
That particular flight arrived at the LBIA hold with over 70 mins of holding fuel available. How long did he hold for, roughly 45 minutes? Whilst other aircraft were landing, he then set off back to LHR. Why? Why not MAN, LPL, NCL, MME or another Yorkshire airport - DSA? Why wouldn't they divert into DSA and set you off on a quick coach journey to LBIA? On top of that, why would they return to LHR, which was suffering from long delays due to heavy winds?
British Airways wanted their aircraft back in LHR as soon as possible, due to the aforementioned delays. BA had already cancelled flights for later on in the day. One of these cancelled flights was the early afternoon LHR-LBA rotation. So not only have they not taken you anywhere, they've cancelled the next flight to your destination.
Less than 10 minutes after the BA decided to return to Heathrow, visibility was up to 3000. BA's indecisiveness and preferential routing are what caused yesterdays delays and cancellations. Not LBIA. So don't try and use their mistakes as a discredit to LBIA, or Yorkshire.
Firstly you are mixing up two separate issues; Operational decisions by Airlines and Inability of airports to handle flights.
The point is if the BA had been able to make an approach and landing at the destination it was intended to land at it would not have had to divert anywhere. The amount of time it spent holding over LBA is irrelevant (the aircraft also had to hold over NW London). An airport built at a lower elevation would not have had the associated thick low cloud (the vale of York was 10km or more). If an airport is unable to accept an aircraft for whatever reason then it has 100% failed at providing the service it is intended for. BA could have diverted their plane to Timbuktu if they had so desired. The origin of the failure is the airport and that is where the buck stops. It stops at Leeds Bradford Airport and it goes absolutely nowhere else.
It is not the airports that rule anymore it is the airlines. Provide a fit and proper operative, efficient airport and you have a chance at attracting the airlines. The more the inefficiency and failure of an airport to its job the more chance the airlines will turn their backs. Do you think the owners of LBA will be criticising BA for only holding for 3/4 of an hour? No airline wants to spend valuable time and money doing circles at 9000 ft above the airport where they are meant to be arriving at.
This is why Yorkshire and Leeds city region needs an airport that is not built at the highest elevation in the country because it causes a huge amount of inefficiency and failure. In a nutshell the airport is very far from ideal (as the previous operators of the airport have stated). It is not just one issue - it is a long list. Elevation and associated weather being just one of the issues that affect the operation of LBA.
because it causes a huge amount of inefficiency and failure.
No such thing as an ideal airport - they all have their physical constraints. LBA might be marginally worse than others but don't believe it is really an issue for airlines.
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Care to quantify that? How many flights a year get diverted from LBA? Is it never foggy in the Vale of York?
No such thing as an ideal airport - they all have their physical constraints. LBA might be marginally worse than others but don't believe it is really an issue for airlines.
No such thing as an ideal airport - they all have their physical constraints. LBA might be marginally worse than others but don't believe it is really an issue for airlines.
The differing combinations of these weather types on a relatively short and undulating runway means that LBA has probably the worst weather record of any similar sized airport in the UK.
It is not just diversions though. A plane can hold for an hour and then manage to land. It could maybe make two missed approaches and then manage to land. This happens very frequently, especially in the Winter months and very little is ever spoken of it. Of course this costs a huge amount of money to the airlines and is obviously accounted for within deals individual airlines agree with the airport. When airports are in Low Visibility Procedures the efficiency of the airport has decreased by its very nature (less movement and less movements)-just the same as it decreases at LHR for example.
Leeds East Airport is affected by radiation fog particularly but overall the potential efficiency of the airport and diversion rate would be much less. (take into consideration - low lying airfield, potentially long unrestricted runway orientated into the prevailing wind allowing CAT2/3 operation). Generally a low lying airfield, while not perfect, will fair much better than one 681ft above sea level.
Of course this costs a huge amount of money to the airlines and is obviously accounted for within deals individual airlines agree with the airport. When airports are in Low Visibility Procedures the efficiency of the airport has decreased by its very nature (less movement and less movements)-just the same as it decreases at LHR for example.
LBA has probably the worst weather record of any similar sized airport in the UK
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The CAA stats for air transport diversions in 2014 are at this link where LBA's diversion record can be compared with other UK airports.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...erted_2014.pdf
Previous years figures can be found via the CAA website.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/80/airport...erted_2014.pdf
Previous years figures can be found via the CAA website.
The way I see it, it's just an occupational hazard.. Of course no airline will like the inconvenience, but if it an airport has a strong customer base, they will probably weigh up the risk. BRS and LBA have grown quite significantly over the last ten years or so.. Despite in Leeds case of an airport with a far better diversion record being only 30 odd miles away..
CF will hopefully grow to be a good GA airport, and (from a selfish point of view) hopefully attract the likes of Multiflufht moving some of their flight training arm.. But there is no hope of seeing passenger services there in the way that some people might want..
CF will hopefully grow to be a good GA airport, and (from a selfish point of view) hopefully attract the likes of Multiflufht moving some of their flight training arm.. But there is no hope of seeing passenger services there in the way that some people might want..
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There you again - how about answering the question? How bad a problem is the weather at LBA? What's the cost? Any evidence it has any impact on airlines choosing to fly there or is it just an urban myth?
The 'urban myth' has struck again this morning on the EI service from DUB and onward. A missed approach, a period of holding with associated fuel burn and then diversion to MAN. Of course it affects airline's decisions - they're businesses. When planes spend time and money not being able to land and then have to divert it's not just scribbled on the back of a cig packet.
And probably the second worst is Bristol - one of the fastest growing major airports in the UK and isn't Prestwick the best? Doesn't seem to be much of a queue to get into there...
The 'urban myth' has struck again this morning on the EI service from DUB and onward. A missed approach, a period of holding with associated fuel burn and then diversion to MAN. Of course it affects airline's decisions - they're businesses. When planes spend time and money not being able to land and then have to divert it's not just scribbled on the back of a cig packet.
And probably the second worst is Bristol - one of the fastest growing major airports in the UK and isn't Prestwick the best? Doesn't seem to be much of a queue to get into there...
Perhaps your true concern is that a more suitable airport developed within Yorkshire will have an affect on your local airport?
Last edited by LEEDS APPROACH; 9th May 2015 at 09:55.
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If you're not the Transport minister and it turns out you're just a Humberside enthusiast then I'll be respectfully disagreeing with you.
Last edited by LEEDS APPROACH; 9th May 2015 at 09:54.
LBA is less than ideal in its location and facilities, but it works. There is no scope for a Manchester style international airport in Yorkshire.. That boat sailed in the 60's.. I'm not sure where the multi million pound investment is coming from to turn CF into an airport capable of handling the type of traffic you keep alluding to? DSA only got it because it qualified for EU objective one funding. CF would need a runway extension of at least 3000 ft to handle anything bigger than a restricted 737. The current road connections are worse than the ones connecting LBA..
So not really much going for CF if we're looking at it from your perspective, but if we're being realistic it has the potential to become an excellent GA facility for Yorkshire..
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You don't need to be Transport Minister to have a bit of commercial awareness. Not sure what Humberside (or being Transport Minister)has to do with it, but thanks for attempting to ignore the main points..
LBA is less than ideal in its location and facilities, but it works. Not this morning it didn't. There is no scope for a Manchester style international airport in Yorkshire.. That boat sailed in the 60's.. The boat has not sailed anywhere - I disagree. (as the former leader of Leeds City Council has recently stated.) I'm not sure where the multi million pound investment is coming from to turn CF into an airport capable of handling the type of traffic you keep alluding to? Why would you know? DSA only got it because it qualified for EU objective one funding. CF would need a runway extension of at least 3000 ft to handle anything bigger than a restricted 737. It will be incremental growth from a project that it is capable of sustaining itself starting small and growing in the way failing airports are incapable of. The landing distance at LEA is circa 500ft shorter than LBA. I don't agree with your figures. The current road connections are worse than the ones connecting LBA.. They are smaller perhaps but closer to the Motorway and much less busy and congested and capable of upgrade and so don't agree.
So not really much going for CF if we're looking at it from your perspective, I think completely the contrary but if we're being realistic it has the potential to become an excellent GA facility for Yorkshire.. This will most certainly happen
LBA is less than ideal in its location and facilities, but it works. Not this morning it didn't. There is no scope for a Manchester style international airport in Yorkshire.. That boat sailed in the 60's.. The boat has not sailed anywhere - I disagree. (as the former leader of Leeds City Council has recently stated.) I'm not sure where the multi million pound investment is coming from to turn CF into an airport capable of handling the type of traffic you keep alluding to? Why would you know? DSA only got it because it qualified for EU objective one funding. CF would need a runway extension of at least 3000 ft to handle anything bigger than a restricted 737. It will be incremental growth from a project that it is capable of sustaining itself starting small and growing in the way failing airports are incapable of. The landing distance at LEA is circa 500ft shorter than LBA. I don't agree with your figures. The current road connections are worse than the ones connecting LBA.. They are smaller perhaps but closer to the Motorway and much less busy and congested and capable of upgrade and so don't agree.
So not really much going for CF if we're looking at it from your perspective, I think completely the contrary but if we're being realistic it has the potential to become an excellent GA facility for Yorkshire.. This will most certainly happen
I have no 'love' of HUY beyond knowing people who work there and wanting them to achieve their aims of helping to regenerate the area it serves.. However, that has nothing to do with this thread, and to be honest neither does CF.. I have always maintained that in an ideal world the Ferrybridge proposal of '67 would have been the best option.. That will not happen now, and If you're going to try and labour your point on here, you should at least tell us where you think the money would come from.. All I know is my employer is certainly not looking to jump ship from their core base to an airfield on the Vale of York..