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Old 20th Mar 2015, 18:03
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Originally Posted by BKS Air Transport


The argument for a 'Yorkshire' airport also relies on an assumption that residents of the region will automatically flow to an airport located in the centre. I would argue this is flawed: those in the north will still consider Newcastle, those in the west Manchester and those in the south East Midlands, just as they do now.
No it relies on the assumption that residents of the region will automatically flow to an airport that is the quickest and easiest to get to. Yes other factors such as range of services and price of flights do come into the equation but ease and speed of getting to an airport is a 'set in stone' principle across the globe. Leeds East airport (which already exists by the way-biz jets are landing) geographically fits these parameters for the vast majority of the Yorkshire and Humber population (link road being a proviso). LBA and DSA are in the wrong locations and are fighting against one another. That is why a Belfast service was not viable from both airports and hence passengers from Doncaster for example head to EMA now. This would not happen if there was a service airport at Leeds East as Doncaster is 15 minutes away by ECML train. Yes there is no station on the ECML at Leeds East at present but there is the potential and that is the key. Is LBA on the ECML? Ok HS3 does not exist but the Transpennine express does. A Leeds to Church Fenton none stopping train would take about 17 minutes. HS2 (if it is built) does not just go to Leeds it joins the ECML/Transpennine express at Leeds East Airport. There are trains even now from Sheffield and Hull that stop at Church Fenton train station. There is massive potential as regards train connections especially to Leeds East airport. All that will stop this project for the whole North East are the politicians who have already spent billions in the north west.
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 18:48
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Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
All that will stop this project for the whole North East are the politicians who have already spent billions in the north west.
And the lack of funding.
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 19:14
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No it relies on the assumption that residents of the region will automatically flow to an airport that is the quickest and easiest to get to. Yes other factors such as range of services and price of flights do come into the equation but ease and speed of getting to an airport is a 'set in stone' principle across the globe. Leeds East airport (which already exists by the way-biz jets are landing) geographically fits these parameters for the vast majority of the Yorkshire and Humber population (link road being a proviso).
Youíre falling into the trap of regarding the county of Yorkshire as a homogeneous catchment area for an airport at Church Fenton. It doesnít work like that. Just because itís in existence as a business jet airport doesnít mean it will become a regional civil airport.


LBA and DSA are in the wrong locations and are fighting against one another. That is why a Belfast service was not viable from both airports and hence passengers from Doncaster for example head to EMA now. This would not happen if there was a service airport at Leeds East as Doncaster is 15 minutes away by ECML train. Yes there is no station on the ECML at Leeds East at present but there is the potential and that is the key. Is LBA on the ECML? Ok HS3 does not exist but the Transpennine express does. A Leeds to Church Fenton none stopping train would take about 17 minutes.
The same arguments could be made for Northolt which has good potential surface communications and just needs an airport station. There is no chance of that airport becoming a replacement for Heathrow or a county airport for Middlesex, despite having business/general aviation (and an RAF presence). Life simply isnít like that.

HS2 (if it is built) does not just go to Leeds it joins the ECML/Transpennine express at Leeds East Airport. There are trains even now from Sheffield and Hull that stop at Church Fenton train station. There is massive potential as regards train connections especially to Leeds East airport. All that will stop this project for the whole North East are the politicians who have already spent billions in the north west.
All thatís stopping Church Fenton is (apologies for being repetitive):
(1) it is unviable because it cannot survive alongside existing airports;
(2) a business case cannot be made as existing airports cannot be forced to close;
(3) there is not enough demand for an additional airport in Leeds;
(4) pax and carriers want to be elsewhere i.e. Yeadon;
(5) it will never be built and may be seen as a vanity project.
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Old 20th Mar 2015, 19:17
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Leeds Approach...

I am sure as much is already spent in North East as in North West, maybe just on areas that are not on your radar, or fit your agenda.

...but there is nowt like stats to back that up...in 2013 East / Yorkshire / Humber had £597.50 per member of population spent on infra-structure projects, while the Northwest received £599. If your going to harp on about indifferences then you should be aim those comments at London where the figure was a staggering £5,426 !!! Saying NW gets billions that East / Yorkshire does not get is factually incorrect, sorry !

Last edited by eggc; 20th Mar 2015 at 19:59.
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Old 21st Mar 2015, 01:29
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Originally Posted by Andy_S
And the lack of funding.
Somebody has used private funding to buy the airport. Everybody thought it would be a housing estate or industrial estate. If there was a pan political will to establish a fit for purpose airport in the north east while running down a unsuitable, constrained airport then funding would immediately become available. Politicians have huge power but they can only delay the inevitable for so long. Yorkshire and the Humber inhabitants (and North Eastern inhabitants in general) will not put with being 2nd class citizens in aviation terms any longer. A correctly positioned and connected airport at the expense of two failing airports to the Eastern side of the Pennines is clearly a more than viable project and that is why it has begun.
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Old 21st Mar 2015, 01:37
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Originally Posted by eggc
Leeds Approach...


East / Yorkshire / Humber
I don't know where this place is? As for your stats - they are wrong. Historically the North West has been bailed out year after year. Especially when the population was dropping like a stone in Manchester.
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Old 21st Mar 2015, 02:29
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Originally Posted by Fairdealfrank
You’re falling into the trap of regarding the county of Yorkshire as a homogeneous catchment area for an airport at Church Fenton. It doesn’t work like that. Just because it’s in existence as a business jet airport doesn’t mean it will become a regional civil airport.

It's not really a 'trap' my friend it is a recognised process using population area catchment study. The methodology is done for potential airports worldwide. It identifies the exact amount of people within certain differing travel times of exact spots on the globe's surface. I'm glad you are now aware that an airport has just been opened at Leeds East airport.


The same arguments could be made for Northolt which has good potential surface communications and just needs an airport station. There is no chance of that airport becoming a replacement for Heathrow or a county airport for Middlesex, despite having business/general aviation (and an RAF presence). Life simply isn’t like that.

You don't half come out with some nonsense! Comparing an airport 7 miles away from the worlds 3rd busiest stuck in the middle of urban London to what is required in Yorkshire to replace its far from ideal airports. 'Life simply isn't like that' lol. You really should stick to gazing at the planes on the flightpath where you live.


All that’s stopping Church Fenton is (apologies for being repetitive):
(1) it is unviable because it cannot survive alongside existing airports;
(2) a business case cannot be made as existing airports cannot be forced to close;
(3) there is not enough demand for an additional airport in Leeds;
(4) pax and carriers want to be elsewhere i.e. Yeadon;
(5) it will never be built and may be seen as a vanity project.
It is like trying to explain trigonometry to someone who fails to grasp basic maths.

(1) It is viable and hence it has just been created after prolonged study. It is currently surviving along side existing airports.

(2) Business case has been made and hence the airport has just opened. (despite there being a GA airport 2 miles down the road). There is political will to develop a 'new' airport in the Yorkshire region by the Council in direct control of LBA. Leeds City Council decides on whether (or not) LBA's owners can use a temporary building as a check in area for example. [google - 'calls for new Leeds Airport'. ps a lot has happened in the last year.

(3) See answer to point (2).

(4) Please show your evidence for this statement or it will be classed as opinion. If LBA did not exist would airlines want to be at Leeds East Airport with a natural catchment of 5.4 million people?

(5) It has begun to be built and has just been renamed Leeds East Airport and is accepting flights. The development of a fit for purpose airport to replace airports that are known to be far from ideal and underperforming in a region whose population is much bigger than the island of Ireland will never be seen as a vanity project.
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Old 21st Mar 2015, 06:56
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Business case has been made and hence the airport has just opened.
It has begun to be built and has just been renamed Leeds East Airport and is accepting flights.

Leeds Approach - is there any evidence that the owners are thinking of Church Fenton in the same way as you are? My understanding is they are thinking more along the lines of emulating somewhere like Staverton rather than Ringway. Either the Strawberry market is doing better than I think or I'd be surprised if they have access to the sort of cash you're talking about!

Oh, and can you leave the North East out of this argument amongst you Midlanders!

Last edited by SWBKCB; 21st Mar 2015 at 08:44.
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Old 21st Mar 2015, 07:24
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I was about to say there already is a fit for purpose airport in the north east...Newcastle.
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Old 21st Mar 2015, 07:39
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Leeds Approach

Hmmm, no stats from you there to back up your claim.

Google "Infrastructure spending by region" and you'll quickly see where my stats come from, which are the latest available and from official sources (2013).

It must be very frustrating being you, advocating, and arguing for, something that will just never happen.
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Old 21st Mar 2015, 09:45
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Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
Somebody has used private funding to buy the airport.
To buy it, yes. But where will the funding come from to develop it to the extent you envisage?

Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
Yorkshire and the Humber inhabitants (and North Eastern inhabitants in general) will not put with being 2nd class citizens in aviation terms any longer.
Once again, you speak very presumptuously. Obviously the idea of a major international airport for Yorkshire is a big deal for you, but I see no evidence that the population of Yorkshire and the North East in general are particularly bothered. And how can you say you are second class citizens "in aviation terms" when you have so many airports (including one with intercontinental routes) within a few hours travelling time? There are many people in this country far more poorly served in that respect.

Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
A correctly positioned and connected airport at the expense of two failing airports....
LBA a failing airport?? Pull the other one..... Constrained, maybe. Less than ideal, maybe. But failing? Again, there are people in other parts of the country that would be happy to have a "failure" like LBA serving their aviation needs.

Originally Posted by LEEDS APPROACH
....clearly a more than viable project and that is why it has begun.
As has already been mentioned, the owners of Church Fenton are likely to have far more modest ambitions for the place than you do.

Last edited by Andy_S; 21st Mar 2015 at 09:46. Reason: Spelling
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Old 21st Mar 2015, 15:28
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Well said Andy. Hope this is the end of Church Fenton in the LEEDS thread.
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Old 21st Mar 2015, 23:38
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It's not really a 'trap' my friend it is a recognised process using population area catchment study. The methodology is done for potential airports worldwide. It identifies the exact amount of people within certain differing travel times of exact spots on the globe's surface. I'm glad you are now aware that an airport has just been opened at Leeds East airport.
The county of Yorkshire is not the catchment in this case.

You don't half come out with some nonsense! Comparing an airport 7 miles away from the worlds 3rd busiest stuck in the middle of urban London to what is required in Yorkshire to replace its far from ideal airports. 'Life simply isn't like that' lol. You really should stick to gazing at the planes on the flightpath where you live.
Indeed, of course it is nonsense, that is the point, but no more nonsense (your word) than your plans for Church Fenton. In fact my "nonsense" analogy illustrates it very well.

BTW fatuous personal comments mean that the argument is lost. Tantrum next?

It is like trying to explain trigonometry to someone who fails to grasp basic maths.
#Oh very good! Do love a comedian.

Oh, and can you leave the North East out of this argument amongst you Midlanders!
#Ha ha, love it, the Midlands is the area between the Thames and the Tees!!
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Old 22nd Mar 2015, 07:03
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#Ha ha, love it, the Midlands is the area between the Thames and the Tees!!
No, No - "the South" starts just below Birmingham, not at the Thames.
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 13:33
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LBIA Destination page

Is LBA the only airport in Britain who has a website that includes destinations available only by flying via other airports?? Hawaii, Calgary, Dubai etc and even Copenhagen. It's a bit embarrassing really.

I see the lba masterplan has been delayed again apparently they are coordinating the plans with the local authority. Is this the local authority that stated that Leeds and Yorkshire may need an airport in a different location (white rose international) if the region was not to miss out in future years? Might perhaps explain why nothing has been built for a while?
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 15:01
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No, you can fly to these places from LBA. They are marketing it as such because many people will not think of using BA or KLM and instead drive to MAN or LHR for direct long haul. How it's embarrassing is beyond me...?

It is pretty clear there is only one airport in the north capable of offering the critical mass of passengers for viable links to long haul destinations. This one airport for Yorkshire thing died when the Ferrybridge proposal was ignored in the 60's..
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 16:55
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Is LBA the only airport in Britain who has a website that includes destinations available only by flying via other airports??
I bet every regional airport website does this - they'd be barmy not to e.g. NCL's website currently advertises United to New York and all it's American destinations (Vegas, Florida, etc) and Emirates and its "connections to the world". The DTVA website says "Itís a small world - Go global in under 80 minutes with our three daily connections to Amsterdam"

Embarrassing? Don't think you understand how regional airports work.
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Old 3rd Apr 2015, 17:40
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EMA goes further than that. On their joke of a website they advertise "Onward connections with Air France" "Fly from East Midlands to Paris and connect to worldwide destinations"
Can anyone spot the slight problem there.......?

It also proudly states that Summer 2014 holidays are now on sale - so if you are quick you might be able to snap up a bargain!

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Old 22nd Apr 2015, 19:22
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Are Flybe offering holiday flights from LBA in Summer 2016?
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Old 22nd Apr 2015, 19:33
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Flybe haven't even releases winter 15/16 schedules so summer 16 is waaaayyyy off


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