No that's about right. But you will learn to stop worrying and love them :}

(joking of course :))

That would be the impression of you don't understand his post and/or don't understand the dutch culture. And of course there are and always will be divas, on both sides of the cockpit door.

If you are accustomed to a more submissive, hierarchical workingrelation from cabin to cockpit, yeah, you might have to get used to the way things are going in the Dutch aircraft. And there are multiple airlines which work just fine with that system, I am not the one to put a positive of negative value on that.
But the fact is, we, as most others, have or own way of working, communicating, delegating, etc. And like the poster mentioned, being anxious about what an influx of non-dutch employees will do to that balance isn't that strange.

The thing with our job is sometimes things are time critical. If there's an emergency and cabin crew are not complying with the flight deck's critical to life commands, because they think they know better and want to deliberate about instructions whilst people are about to burn alive - surely that's an issue?

This happened with AAL 383, thankfully it didn't cost any lives.

I say this as someone who enjoys shallow cockpit and cabin/cockpit gradients because it makes the day more enjoyable when everyone feels valued and is having fun. Now this all works great, until you get that one bossy purser who takes advantage of the flight deck's kindness, and suddenly you're being spoken to as though they're your boss and you can't go to the toilet for an hour. Reverting to the "chain of command" principle can get you out of these situations with people who don't know how to behave. If it doesn't exist ....

A reasonable point to bring up. However, low hierarchy does not equal tolerance of insubordination. Of course you can fall back on rank if it's really necessary, but it's a last resort and seldomly necessary. As for emergencies and such, every situation I've been in, the cooperation has been smooth and we worked as a team to deal with the issue. I have every confidence in the cabin crew.

What I'm talking about is more the day-to-day communication culture, what your colleagues' expectations are and what will cause friction. Dutch people are naturally averse to authority. It doesn't mean authority relationships don't exist (they do and everyone knows it). It's just considered very undesirable to express or use that hierarchy openly.

So let me give you an example and maybe German people can chime in. But in Lufthansa I gather it's still normal for a Captain to be adressed as 'Herr Flugkapitan' using the 'Sie' form, until that person allows the use of the more informal 'du' form. The Dutch language has the 'U' and 'jij' equivalents. Closest I can come up with is adressing people with 'sir' or 'milord' in English. If you said to the cabin crew that you wanted to be adressed with 'Sie/U' they would first think you're joking, then think you're mad, followed by them thinking you're are totally arrogant prick. It would then go to them talking to you as little as they can and avoiding you.

That's what I'm talking about, not that they're going to be unprofessional or ignore commands during emergencies.

Gents, I'd like to thank everybody that has shared some insights on the latest and greatest T&Cs offered by KLM and the type of QOL to be expected in NL.

Among the the VERY interesting yapping at times about nationalist sentiments an whatnot, some very good information has emerged. On a personal note, I find it very ironic that people think of Dutch (or any other nationality for that matter) as arrogant or unreasonable in regards to the expectancy from you to learn the language. Surely some cultures are more or less accepting than others but I strongly interface with everybody who expects you to adapt to the environment and not the other way around. Anybody who's had the privilege of flying in a company made up of 99% fellow countrymen will understand, me being one of them.

Having now contributed to the yapping myself (irony keeps on ironing), I'd like to ask a few questions to the "insiders" of this operation.

I have applied at the end of January as a 26 y.o. with 2000 hours on B737 NG/MAX (RYR). Yesterday I have received a request by HR to update a few documents which seems to have been the same experience of many others in this thread. Today the have followed up saying they are unable to provide an estimate when the next phase of the selection process will begin so I am just sitting tight at this point. I will take the time to look at the few websites I've found here for the interview preparation.

What salary and pension schemes are to be expected for someone of my age?
Are housing prices generally high all over NL or are there areas a little more accessible for anybody who's looking into moving in the country and willing to drive even for a few hours to get to AMS?

Ok, now let’s get back to the matter… lol

I flew with KLM from Amsterdam to São Paulo on the T7-300.

best crew ever in my life. I was treated like a king by them. Flight was full, only one seat left and my wife got that seat. I got the JS. I introduced myself to the cabin crew and to the pilots as an AA pilot and said I applied to KLM, although I don’t have the EASA licence yet (went to NL just to get my 1st class medical by EASA - and starting the exams next month). Everyone wished me good luck, the Captain and the other 2 pilots said: I hope next time you are in the cockpit flying with us. I mean, they didn’t need to say that. And in English. I’m a Brazilian with Italian citizenship and only speak English. Anyway, the way I was treated and the way I saw them working made nothing but fall in love even more for that company. Totally different from the way you are treated on the other side of the pond.

anyway, I hope next year they open again the selection for non-Dutch speakers and then I’ll be able to join, even at 40yo. I don’t care. KLM is a huge dream for me.

if anyone knows here if they will reopen the position for non-Dutch speakers inthe near future, let us know. I’m running here against the clock not because I want the Easa licence, but because I want to make my childhood dream come true and join KLM and live in NL.

About 85K salary + 8K pension contribution paid out before taxes. Additionally the company pays about 20-25% (I can never remember) into our collective pilot pension fund (which is independent and cannot be touched by the company). I recommend you look at post #215 in this topic. ]funda.nl for all the houses on sale basically. It's slightly less expensive maybe in the far northeast or southeast. Everywhere else is through the roof.

Massively appreciated! That salary should amount to around €3.340x14 after taxes which is a little shocking to be completely honest and will make it difficult to deal with the outrageous housing prices but I understand it should get better quite fast with a couple years of seniority?

In RYR (actually MAY) Italian base we're looking at around €5.300x12 after taxes (43%), 70h monthly. No seniority schemes at all here so unless the union manages to negotiate something with the company there will be no improvements on that front. Pension contribution is at 2%. My privilege is being based at home so QOL is really great. Southern Italy is very cheap and beautiful if you're willing to gloss over the VERY evident drawbacks.

I am very conflicted about "getting stuck" in this company as I've seen many Captains regret not leaving when they were still FOs. It gets very difficult to jump back into the RHS but this company that doesn't value you and where after the upgrade there is close to no room for growth is literally one of the very few good options for someone who needs or wants to stay close to family, assuming you are patient enough to wait for a base assignment. I don't want to do that.

The only way I can go from where I am in this company if I stay is down. Next year or in 2027 I will be eligible for captaincy but RYR is renowed to be very erratic with base assignments so it's basically guaranteed I will lose my home base. I thus see no reason in not leaving and starting to build seniority somewhere meaningful and I think there are probably no better places than to do that than KLM. The heritage, the pride, the colours... I don't know why I've always been so drawn to this company and NL in general. Being a massive Max Verstappen fan might contribute to that :P

You make 5.300 euros NET a month as an FO at Ryanair flying 70h a month? If so, that’s not bad for Italy whatsoever.

btw, I’m a big fan of Mac Verstappen as well, specially because his girlfriend is a Brazilian girl. Haha

Don't forget you also have a 24% pension contribution from the employer and a 9% coming from your payslip.

Use an online Dutch tax calculator and look at your net in KLM, consider the QOL, cost of living and if you really are willing to live and fly with Dutches for the rest of your career.
The initial impact is going to be shocking, especially coming from S Italy.

That's why I am so conflicted. This is GREAT, I have a good salary in my home base in one of cheapest areas of Italy. My colleagues are awesome and we have a great time flying and hanging out. I really couldn't get any better but again, I will 100% lose this base when the time for the upgrade comes soon and that's why leaving would nothing but make sense for me career-wise.

Don't forget we virtually have no benefits, only a lame Blue Assistance health insurance package and discounted hotel fares around the served aiports. Since Ryanair flies to remote airports, it really doesn't make sense booking a hotel in Stansted for your London vacation or Bouvais for Paris, just to name a few. In fact, you would usually only use the discounted fares when the time for SIM checks comes every 6 months (yes, we have to think about and pay for accomodation and transportation for that ourselves). No profit sharing, 2% pension contribution... yea.

All in all, people in here are great but the company isn't to be honest. It's probably the best place to start if you're lucky enough to be based in Italy but it's not a company I would invest my career in. You're reduced to a number basically. Nobody upstairs ever sends an appreciative "good job" when you flew 100 hours last month without ever landing late but they are the fastest in the West to pull you out the roster on unpaid leave for weeks when the RAAS calls for a go-around when you're already on the ground with the reversers open and everything is fine. It really feels like this company doesn't even try to keep you here. They have the fastest time to upgrade and that's about it.

And by the way, I have to concur that Kelly Piquet is indeed very nice, only another reason to support Verstappen ahahah

I am 100% aware of the shock it will be initially. I've flown out of base with the northern Europeans and the difference in culture in nothing short to jarring. Definitely the most interesting experience of culture shock during one of these out of base duties, the CPT brought a buddy CPT along for the ride in the cockpit. Those 2 hours with them two talking in their language without even trying to engage with me once! Well, the buddy did engage once to be honest. At one point I pulled the Operations Manual on the iPad to study a few things because, well, I had nothing better to do. This dude noticed and said to me: "Man, you really are bored to be doing that". Just bizarre...

How is access to mortgages in NL to foreigners? Assuming one would look into buying a house after a few years.

KLM pays the salary, + the 25 to 42% pension depending on your age (which you can not touch, right?), + 9% of your gross that goes into your payslip? Why do they pay this 9% if they already pay the 25-42% of pension every month?

And they pay 14 salaries a years, right?

2+9+24% is the total pension contribution with Malta Air in Italy, I have no idea about KLM. Apologies for the confusion.

This has turned into a thread for three year olds. The exchange of content information is like listening to Americans order coffee.

Should be no problem with a permanent contract, especially if you have a EU passport. And although anything remotely close to Amsterdam will cost you a fortune, your initial expat tax allowance might be of help! I'm no expert in anyway in this regard, but I know plenty of foreign pilots have bought a house here.

An Italian complaining that other crew speak their common language when together :} :}

Joking aside, it doesn't bother me and shouldn't bother you. In my experience, the Dutch speak superb English and can have a fantastic sense of humour to boot. I don't see it being as bad as people are saying.

People are always going to group together and revert to what is familiar to them, it's never going to change. I mean despite about 5 memos in the last few years about English being our only official language, we still have incidents with their root cause in Spanish and Italians speaking their own language, leaving their colleague in the dark.

with the starting salary at KLM and Transavia it should be possible to buy a house or appartement relatively close to Amsterdam. With a salary of around 100k you could get a mortgage of close to 500k. That should get you an alright appartement in Amsterdam. With the increasing salary and rising housing prices you probably will be able to make a nice upgrade in a few years time. The Netherlands is actually not too bad in terms of housing prices compared to other large European capitals. Especially not compared to the salaries.

For an expat pilot I would recommend to locate yourself in one of the bigger cities like Amsterdam or Utrecht. Lots of expats and easy to blend in with things like sport clubs and all sort of events. It will be a little bit harder to feel yourself at home in smaller dutch cities further away from Amsterdam.

At the time I just thought the situation was bizarre. I met both of them in the briefing room 20 minutes earlier than report time and they were already there immersed in conversation. Considering they then proceeded to talk no-stop for two hours during the flight I guess they hadn't seen each other for a while and were catching up on everything. I wasn't bothered at all or thought it was rude, I just got bored at one point.

This was the only time anything like this has happened. Sure, my career has been very short up to now (3.5 yrs) but I've flown out of base many times with Germans, Austrians, Danish, Swedes, Dutch, Irish, British... you name it. You can tell that generally some cultures like Germans and Austrians are a little more reserved in demeanor and direct when in need to say something to the point that people with other cultural backgrounds (especially latins) might consider it rude and there are obviously individuals that fall out of the bell curve. If you let cultural norms and customs bother you this might be the most frustrating job in the world. People are different and it's interesting to see.

I am aware of the Italians and Spanish stereotype and I can surely confirm it. It would be great to break it and it WILL happen, for Italians for sure. The strong identity is fading away as the old generations are retiring while I can see are much more open and accepting. Here too, the difference between generations is jarring.

Looks like the dream to fly for KLM for those who don’t speak Dutch is really over.