Come on man get serious!
CAO is written in Dutch, VNV does not reply to english emails, ILT and KIWA do not get me started on these two!
If you dont speak DUtch you totally lost in the maze.
What a ridiculous answer really, maybe no one will come and fire you directly but they will do everything is their power to make you leave, they give you constant extra training for not understanding the Dutch instructor, then they will make you fly once a month, then they get upset because you did not follow a procedure described only in Dutch on the cockpit bulletins despite your level is A2 and not C2, then you need to get used for what they call a "direct" way of talking - guys this is total horse ####, it does not exist it is simply the arrogant fake and rude way in which some people talk but hey they call it direct, expect zero mannerism and very odd way of looking at people, believe me I didnt live there just 2 or 3 years

did you actually fly for KLM?

I can agree when people talk about cost of housing and living etc I myself am a huge criticizer. But from my experience in HV and xcms in KL, When the doors are closed its all fun and safe. Some cockpit bulletins are indeed in Dutch but mostly things low level importance to safety which I easly translate with literally one click on my phone. I am aware that this is rather a niche market for pilot that used to only hire Locals, like all the majors if they had a choice. If Dutch people are direct, be the same back at them. They wouldnt mind. Don't expect the world to turn around you, join the rhythm.

I do not know whether the language limitation is written in the contract with KLM but it is not the case for Transavia. In the past when they fired people mostly was due to showing up for duty drunk with repettitive misconducts etc and even then they only accepted the deal with houndreds of thousands of euros of settlement.

I have recently exchanged emails with VNV in English where I received an answer the next day. But it could be different circumstances for different times, I dont know.

If we keep saying Dutch are this, Brits are that Aussies like this French like that, Arabs this or that, There is nowhere to go except home, where some of us doesn't have anything brighter.

Regards

Hey, thanks for the great explanation man! I appreciate it

well, that is pretty much the opposite of my experience. Not understanding the instructor? My experience is that if there is one non-native dutch speaker in the room, the instructor automatically switches to English. That means that this happens more and more after the dropped the language requirements this year.

But sure, KLM and HV will be the hell on earth if you don't like the Netherlands and Dutchies.

If you apply for either of these two airlines, you will be in it for the long run. That is what the CLA is pretty much about. Sure, depending on the age, you can make around 100k as a SO in the first year. But it is taxed pretty heavily and housing is expensive.

Just apply if you want to live in the Netherlands.

Thx for the message.

what is the salary on the 2nd and 3rd year as FO or SO?

I used to work for Transavia and I also used to use XCM to go back home.
I was the most excited pilot when I joined I thought it was the best decision ever.
Joined as an experienced FO on the 737, already with few thousand hours.
Having worked for different companies before and after HV I can tell you that you need to be very flexible to say the least in terms of standards.
I think quality, safety and training wise HV was below market threshold to the point that I would say that training department was really substandard, at least when I was working there.
Now that they are changing fleet, the same is happening as one of you mentioned to me in private. History repeats itself...
Contract wise I can say it IS a decent contract, salary is fixed. it is 4k if you fly 90 hours and it is 4k if you fly 0 hours.
Join KLM or HV whatever you want, but at that time things I wish I knew were not present in the forums.
If you are from a country nearby and ethnically aligned then you might find a different welcoming atmosphere.
Also If you are into backstabbing, lying, reporting, cocky attitude and that sort of things than by all means join your likes, it was a cowboy place and still is from what I hear.
As someone mentioned above expect cabin crew to act like they own the aircraft, it was quite common that pursers come to the cockpit behaving in an abrasive manner.
Funny how people here depict the Dutch as sensible people and fun to work with, it is definitely true but outside of aviation. At work I must say I found the complete opposite, I understand some of you had different experiences but unfortunately this is mine...

[QUOTE=dan.cat3c;11858271]I used to work for Transavia and I also used to use XCM to go back home.
I was the most excited pilot when I joined I thought it was the best decision ever.
Joined as an experienced FO on the 737, already with few thousand hours.
Having worked for different companies before and after HV I can tell you that you need to be very flexible to say the least in terms of standards.
I think quality, safety and training wise HV was below market threshold to the point that I would say that training department was really substandard, at least when I was working there.
Now that they are changing fleet, the same is happening as one of you mentioned to me in private. History repeats itself...
Contract wise I can say it IS a decent contract, salary is fixed. it is 4k if you fly 90 hours and it is 4k if you fly 0 hours.
Join KLM or HV whatever you want, but at that time things I wish I knew were not present in the forums.
If you are from a country nearby and ethnically aligned then you might find a different welcoming atmosphere.
Also If you are into backstabbing, lying, reporting, cocky attitude and that sort of things than by all means join your likes, it was a cowboy place and still is from what I hear.
As someone mentioned above expect cabin crew to act like they own the aircraft, it was quite common that pursers come to the cockpit behaving in an abrasive manner.
Funny how people here depict the Dutch as sensible people and fun to work with, it is definitely true but outside of aviation. At work I must say I found the complete opposite, I understand some of you had different experiences but unfortunately this is mine...[/QUOTE

Having spent 17 years at Transavia, and loving it.. I don’t recognise the Transavia you describe above. Things must have changed a LOT since I left.

There is a L+P factor in the salary at KLM. So years in service and age. It will get you a certain amount of points before it will enter the flightpay (fleet and role specific).

Youngsters around 25 will make around 75k a year
50+ well over 100k

At Transavia there is no age component. Starting salary for 2800h+ is around 115k a year. No previous experience around 75k.

At both KLM and Transavia there is a certain freedom that is very rare in the aviation nowadays. It may feel like cowboy land, but these companies understand the autonomy of the commander. I am pretty sure that with both of these companies it is by far the easiest to reject an aircraft based safety. Or make a huge screw up and and being protected by the company. Call in sick, no questions asked. No tea and biscuits in Dublin if you forget your passport.

The hierarchy between cabin and cockpit is very small. And I have to agree that it makes it harder sometimes to overrule them, but that has more to do with valuation of the cabin crew insight in that situation. The purser may feel like the commander of the aircraft behind the cockpit door. But again, that is the case with only a very small number of CAs.

Both great places to work if you like to be valued, have a good and fun day at work. Okay starting salary but increasing with giant steps. Time to command at KLM around 7 years now. At Transavia already approaching 6 years. You'll be making 170k+ within the 7 years.

and for reference. Ryanair has lost around 30% of it's entire pilot populations in some years. At KLM almost everybody happily works for their entire life and retires at 58 (or 62 part time). For some people it's even such a great and fun job that they want to work longer than that.

At Transavia there is only a handful of people last 10 years who left for another airline other than KLM.

So apparently, those companies work great for most of them.

Thanks for all the insights man!

Could you please give me an Idea of the salary at KLM in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd year pay as an FO if I join the company at age 40/41?

I don't have an exact number for you, but I expect it to be around 110k first year and increasing +- 5000 EUR/year onwards. 3rd year around 125k.

This is excluding profitshare (max 20%). But don't expect too much of it for the upcoming years.

I'm sure KLM recruitment department is happy to run the numbers for you.

May be worth looking at who is JOINING the airline too. FR has a lot of cadets looking for long haul or better opportunities. It is also true that a number of "leaving" pilots try to get back after X years.
On the other hand KLM is by Dutches for Dutches in Dutchland (no, not Deutschland). Should also be worth mentioning that there is quite a lot of Dutch pilots currently working in Germany, just across the border, and they're not even applying to KLM...

Horses for courses I guess.

I'm not allowed to post links yet, but KLM just posted a 30 min video on their Youtube channel about the training they did for the introduction of the A321neo. It's worth a look if you want to get a vibe of the training/flight ops environment. I think it's pretty representative; relaxed, focus on helping the candidate, whilst keeping a high standard. And these are more or less the 'office' guys, not the average line pilots.

Here you go, I'll post something for you. Very representative of KLM training vibe, relaxed and focused on helping candidates...

https://luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/c...-harde-landing

Of course it is just a coincidence that they are all Dutch, the real issue are the black, Moroccans and Turkish that is why the Dutch society denigrates them...
BTW the Dutch are so amazing because they give us so many examples of poor CRM, training culture and low professional attitudes to use for training in what to avoid in the aviation industry.

I'm not sure what the issue is? An inexperienced new FO made a hard landing on an aircraft type that is new for everybody. Though unfortunate, stuff happens I would say. An inspection was done, a part was replaced (took some time) and the incident itself was investigated according to the safety/just culture. This was all publicized. No one was punished and lessons were learned that will be incorporated in future training. I'd rather do it this way then the punitive culture route..

As for the other (political) stuff you're rambling on about out of nowhere; I don't follow. Are you sure you're OK?

Btw, as a side note and a bit of nitpicking I admit; but you do realize it's a bit hypocritical to -on the one hand- accuse a nationality of denigrating other nationalities, only to then yourself denigrate that nationality?

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder, and also seem to be one of the few with a bad experience in HV. Aside from the fact whether that is relevant to KLM, it could also be an indication about you, rather than everyone else.

Hard landings happen everywhere, every day basically. This one happened to occur during base training. Not sure what you want to proof there. Come back when you have an article that says the pilot got fired because of the hard landing and you might have something.

What the hell is wrong with you?

I made no secret of my lack of sympathy for KLM and the arrogant attitude common to many Dutch pilots(not all).
However, it really surprises me that an incident like a hard landing has been posted, to prove what exactly??
I have friends who are TRE/TRI on the a320 back in Europe, these things happen mate so relax...
On a side note, I would like to warn everyone about what has been written above, KLM "investigated according to the safety/just culture".
Talk to real professional pilots that know the environment in the Netherlands, things are investigated according to seniority and friendship connections.
Therefore, If you are a foreigner who does not speak the language I wish you the best of luck with these people.
Regarding the reference to "inexperienced first officer", TakeAPu how long have you been flying? I had a French senior captain smashing the a380 on the tarmac to the point that some pax and the cabin crew at the back were crying for dear life, with perfect weather and standard approach. So, stuff happens regardless of experience level.

Sjeez, this forum has such an abrasive atmosphere, do you people communicate like this in real life? :bored: The only reason I'm posting here by the way is because I'd like people to be able to get a good overview of working at KLM, so they can make an educated decision whether or not they think they can have a happy career here. And I'd like happy colleagues next to me, not sour ones :ok:

Well, I am a "real professional pilot :} that knows the environment in the Netherlands" and what you say is totally unrecognizable to me. I'm not sure what experience you had and with what airline, but in KLM what you describe is simply not happening. I'm not saying there's no 'office politics' and such at the, well, office level, like there is in any country or organization, but the level of corruption you seem to be implying I really don't recognize (and I would not be happy with it if it existed).

About 20 years. What you say is true of course, I was merely referring to the specific incident mentioned, which happened during base training (which is a higher risk activity).

Another question: do you know if they still invite for their assessments? Have applied in January, didn’t hear anything since then.