What ever happened to............"Train people well enough so they can leave, treat them well enough so they don't want to "

Complete change of senior leadership

BA is allowing applications from Ex UK CAA licence holders who hold an EASA ATPL and are eligible for the Conversion Pathway 3-6 to regain the UK licence. I’m guessing the LST on new Type will open the new UK licence somehow.

Does anyone know if VA are also allowing this?

Why take the time to state this on PPRUNE? This is an anon forum.

Sorry I don’t understand your statement.

Have I done something wrong? Happy to take a PM if you wish.

@NatZulu; not going to get drawn into it here but what is a fact is that the vast majority of pilots were offered re-employment, and a handful were not.

You and I can speculate on the ‘real’ reasons all day, and I am certain each case has individual circumstances, but it's also clear from your posts here, and those you’ve made on the other non-anonymous forums, that not everyone shares your interpretation of events or ‘facts’. But I’m sure you’ll get your day in court, and sincerely hope you find some closure as a result.

....the thing is that,with respect, I'm not "speculating" - you are. And that was my point.

And speculating with such accusatory narrative and in such a definative tone as your previous posting on the matter, without having the evidence in front of you, is contributory to the ongoing damage done to reputations of unfortunate victims of this fiasco. Hence my reply - intended not to "draw you in", but rather to correct unsubstantiated and incorrect stated "facts".

You are clearly aware I can substantiate my own comments as you seem to indicate that you know who I am!

I guess if only "a handful" did not get their jobs back then it is not too much of a concern to you. It may well be to others reading this, and certainly to the hundreds of previous colleagues (handful?!) that have court claims currently in the system.

And a handful were not ...
 

...
Anyone remember how the CX Star Chamber selected the Forty-Niners ?

.... As long as I'm all right Jack

LFH

Complete rubbish….

Some of those not invited back had perfect performance records, had never spoken out against the company publicly or in private discussions.

The then head of flight crew management made a point of needing to stamp his authority on the pilots and an easy way to do that was to use the returning pathway to bully and intimidate.

There are people that didn’t return that are taking the company to court yes, but equally there are people that returned or even didn’t even leave that are taking similar action, look out for a few to be coming out into the public domain soon.

A good question to ask is why do virgin have to scream so loudly about how great they are? Why do they make a noise about hiring women, when they were more likely to be made redundant and not return. Why do they need to shout about how inclusive they are in LGBTQ areas?

Don’t believe any of the public shine and glamor, virgin is now only leading in the race to the bottom. Virgin has and will always be fur coat, no knickers!

By all means come and join us, but do it with your eyes open and an escape plan in mind for the next redundancy program, because it’s not a case of if but when….

Is it true Virgin Have suspended all flight crew training ?

Not that I have been made aware, but I just keep my head down and am just biding my time before I go to BA..

I would be highly surprised if that was the case as we have a continuous need to keep everyone current and in check…

Are you thinking new entries? That could be a possibility if they have a back log in recurrent…

Captains who were Board members/general members of an alternative pilot union who took previous industrial action in a recognition dispute - "failed" at interview.

Captain and local chair of BALPA council who oversaw the redundancy consultations, signed the "agreements" surrounding the process of redundancies, new pilot contracts, an industrial standstill agreement, new scheduling terms, and the re-employment process (that encompassed aforementioned interviews) - promoted to new Head of Flightcrew.


...facts, not "speculation"!

Perhaps Branson learned of a different way to treat people on Epstein’s island?

He has very little to do with it these days beyond getting wheeled out for inaugural flights

oh come on!

well he most likely did, on what is the question.

Escaping a sinking ship.
 

From the conference call today apparently some 28 resignations this month alone, that’s got to tell you something (if I got that wrong I’ll edit, was half asleep from a flight).

I’ve heard of people going to BA especially now they are taking direct to LH, Jet2, DHL ( didn’t know they were hiring again), some back to easy and the Sandpit. Everyone you speak to is looking and thinking of jumping. It’s partly from the t&c’s and work life balance but also lots still not sure it’s going to survive. They keep saying this is the year they make money…well how have we not with the loads and the ticket prices?

i don’t know how many new joiners we are getting month but I would be shocked if it’s close to that many. So the end result is already tired and fed up crews are going to be worked harder and get more tired and go sick and the circle repeats…
and to really inspire the troops the new head of flight crew pilot manager or whatever silly title he’s given himself gave us all an admonishment about the Christmas sickness….

numbers wise about 9% down on the f/o ranks for the foreseeable future and most likely staying bad as more bug out.

You definitely got that number wrong...

Is it more?don’t leave us in the dark…
So the general opinion is that VA is not a safe place to go right now as far as job security, rest, salary, variety of routes….so what’s left?
I’m having serious doubts.

Well seeing as the discipline department is fast approaching EK ruthlessness it’s probably not for me to share company communications in a public forum. But their quoted figure is a lot less than that (28/month in an airline of around 1000 pilots would be extremely significant and unrealistic… over 25%/year )

What’s left? Potentially a fast-ish LH command and you don’t have to wear a hat. Probably the best remaining perk is that when the doors are shut and LHR is left behind, it’s still a company filled with very talented, professional and fun loving colleagues to enjoy a day or 2 downroute with.

Anyone recently passed the sim and final interview? Would be happy for some insights, either here or via DM! Cheers

So much I could say in response to this but I’ll wait until 2025……….

In response to what….do share?

The ‘handful’ had mortgages, families and many years of service at VAA but were just dumped out of the company with no return allowed. How ironic that the company are short of pilots.

‘not going to get drawn into it here’………if this isn’t ‘I’m clearly out of my depth and clearly don’t know the facts’, I don’t know what is!

Unless you’re privy to the facts your opinion is meaningless as it’s based on incorrect information. To assume what happened based on rumour, hearsay, conjecture, supposition etc is really not helpful. I know the facts surrounding the redundancy process at VAA whereas you don’t. Therefore you are only guessing and should perhaps question your sources and not express an opinion unless you’re 100% sure of your facts.

If many existing VS pilots are resigning.

Hopefully any existing or any new SO’s that may have joined with some Airbus or Boeing experience, will get into the right hand seat straight away and moved over using some common sense.

is it true all command upgrade courses are now paused with the lack of FO’s?

All command courses stopped till end of summer apparently due to lack of First Officers.

Any lack of FO’s can be placed largely on HR
and their D&I ‘policy of the season’… where numerous suitable and qualified candidates have been turned down at final interview. You reap what you sow.

Ok, in what way? What’s VAA’s D&I policy?

...
It depends on the Season .. :E:E ... Boom Boom !

We know why some were turned down. Being rated and having the hours doesn’t necessarily mean they are suitable candidates. I don’t get why some people apply when they are clearly against how the company operates or their philosophy.
I know from good authority that some guys got there and then had rants about “woke this and that”. Very clever…

They do give feedback, so I can categorically confirm that I was rejected for being insufficiently "woke", or words to that effect. (in my answers to the two woke probing questions). No ranting, I thought I was towing the woke line in a pragmatic way, but obviously it didn't come out the way they wanted. Treading on egg shells these days - can do without that.
Lucky escape by the sounds of it.

“Everyone is equal, it’s just some are more equal than others”

My point proven…
There were even some posts in this forum that were very clear about that same point. Don’t like their uniform policy? Don’t apply. Don’t like their equality & diversity vision? Don’t apply. Don’t like that you can’t sexually harass your crew down route? Don’t apply. Go to Emirates if you want conservative.

Some are as equals as the others, but some tend to get to the last interview and say things that do not align with what VA wants, then act surprised. They are entitled to choose who they hire.

I am very aware of that, you gave the game away as you’re using “woke” as an Insult like most gammon section of this country. You said “towing the woke line in a pragmatic way”. In other words, you were dishonest and they picked it up, these people aren’t stupid. Also, to speak like that it is very obvious you are soo deep in your privilege that you didn’t do any research.

It was as simple as siting down with a friend from an ethnic minority, or a female pilot or anyone from LGBTQ+, or someone with a disability and ask them “how is it truly like for you in aviation, under your skin?”.

With all due respect, it’s what truly intelligent people do, instead of listening to right wing demagoguery, they would go to the source and hear the human side. You cannot replicate or replace the human experience, and you cannot tell someone how they should feel about something. You would have learned something that would make you a more round individual, and you would be more prepared to answer a question like that even if you disagreed with it, but it would come from a place of understanding and honesty.

One would argue that they were the ones who dodged a bullet. Because “woke” is simply having or marked by an active awareness of systemic injustices and prejudices, especially those involving the treatment of ethnic, racial, or sexual minorities.

It is very clear in their website, the company values and ethos, it has changed and you don’t have to like it. Most curious is that you applied whilst disagreeing with it.

Go to a BA assessment and disagree with their mission, very likely they won’t hire you, same for most airline HR assessments. You need to prove to them that you are passionate about their brand and ethos, and even if you disagree with certain aspects. Problem with the anti-woke brigade is that they are usually awful and say deplorable things, like something racist followed by “we can’t say anything these days, treading on eggshells”.

Yes you can say what you want, it is freedom of speech, not freedom from consequences. Compassion, empathy, kindness, awareness of our privileges (most pilots are), awareness of the injustices in our system etc. It’s not that hard mate.

I have recruited pilots for years and have seen a lot of ugly things in recruitment, from racism to Islamophobia, sexism etc. The way things were before weren’t great either so I can blame them from trying to be inclusive.

Whatever you say Ralph. :rolleyes:

Until they run out of pilots. Which they have.

Maybe the fact that Virgin are struggling to hire and Emirates are not suggest that not many people agree with your/their opinion.

It’s not an opinion, it is a fact, they can choose who they hire based on standards they set. Emirates? They hire from a wider pool of pilots, whilst Virgin are limited to brits and EASA holders(new), majority of applicants to Emirates are from India, so you’re being disingenuous.

What I find with this discussions, is that people can’t beat the argument so resort to either name calling, or throwing words they don’t know what it means i.e. marxists, woke etc. Gets to a point you can’t defend your position without sounding incredibly ignorant of the subject matter.

Did they run out of pilots because of their recruitment profile? You don’t know that, fact. OR Could the exodus be due to how they acted during the pandemic? Were the issues attracting people due to lower salary and worse schedule, plus a smaller pool of candidates? Could be, we also don’t know that, fact. But now, let’s blame it on “woke”….

BA ran out of pilots, by the way. They also failed a number of people, because they can choose who they hire based on their profile. Also a fact.

TUI can’t hire and are losing people, most of the new hires are cadets, fact.
Easyjet too. Either beat the argument with a sound and honest point, or take a seat my friend.
The intellectual dishonesty is overwhelming on Pprune(that’s an opinion by the way), but to come here and blame an assessment failure on them being “woke” ? and for you to come and defend that point, is a new level of the privileged not taking accountability for their shortcomings. There are plenty of resources for self development and learning on the subject matter, he didn’t pass because he probably spent too much time in his conservative bubble and never bothered with the people most affected this.

You make some valid points but you ruin your post by including what you claim are facts but which are actually not true.

What is not true, exactly?

The previous posters can’t prove that VA struggle’s to hire because they are PERCEIVED to be woke. That’s a fact. There are a number of reasons. Emirates can hire from every country in the world, VA can’t so that’s also nonsense.