Pay deal rejected

Simulator assessment
 

Hey guys! Anyone has any sim prep recommendations? Thank you!

Are lots of crew still leaving Virgin? Or are they waiting for the pay deal?

Does anyone know what the T’s and C’s look like on the new deal? Thanks.

Key highlights

- 750hrs is back but a bit fluffy as to how many and when they will move onto it.

- 30% pay rise over 3 years

- 4 more golden days off

- new scheduling rules (a move in the right direction but still inferior to BA LH. Eg still 2 pilots WOCL 9.5hrs)

- Productivity opt in. Loose all protections and apply just FTL for 10% more.

- no overtime in 14 days of sickness

- overtime rates reduced. Want more money have to opt in to the productivity contract.

Thanks for the info.

VA OR BA anyone in the know would give some advice or recommendations knowing what the new Virgin deal brings?

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Not to get in a BA vs Virgin chat, but that is subjective imo. BA don’t get guaranteed 3 days off after a lot of trips unlike at Virgin. They can have 2 days off after west coast/SA etc. I would like 3 pilots with the same trigger as BA, but I’d rather 2 pilots and 9.5hr flight with 3 days off than 3 pilots with 2 days off.

Personally, I think the new rules are stronger than the scheduling rules prior to covid under the PSA, couple that with a 750 hours contract (that has no reduction in pay) and I think we’re onto a winner and it puts us in a really good position again.

Hoping we can all move away from the toxicity and negativity and get on with our lives now.

Also, overtime rates were not reduced. They just weren’t increased in line with the pay rise.

other things include:

- hugely improved leave rules
- a binding redundancy policy (finally - to precent covid like redundancies occuring out of seniority)
- better sickness policies
- improvements to positioning
- standby callout increased to 3hrs
- options for a commuter roster but yet to be seen how well that will work

Since we changed the rostering system, I find the workload balancing to be far better. Last few months regularly getting 5-7 days off in a row, with about 14-15 days off a month.

Don't shoot the messenger, I've just copied and pasted from elsewhere, probably should've stated that. I work at niether.

3 days off is nice but now way in the world would I trade for 3 pilots and a couple of hours in the bunk. Makes such a differmace to fatigue compared to controlled rest in the seat.

I believe at BA, you can be assigned LH trips including East/West with one day off when you are on reserve. Is this also the case at Virgin, or is it always 3 days off?

You can’t do that at BA, you need minimum 2 days off and if it’s E/W/E or W/E/W pattern it’s 3 days minimum

I'm looking at my mates roster with now ...

East -> 1 Day off -> East -> 1 Day off -> West

Devil in the detail no doubt. What is the breakdown of the 30% and is it basic or variable pay? What does year 1 FO pay look like post pay deal?

Would be good to compare BA and VS on current pay deals.

Looks like ~95% fixed, ~5% variable paid in one annual lump sum in February. Year 1 SFO ~£97k fixed, £5k variable, according to the table.

How is it to pick up flights from days off at Virgin. Is it fleet dependent or is it relatively straightforward. Also is this rumour of the 330neo order to replace the 787 sound solid ?

thanks for the responses just trying to paint a picture as looking at both longhual airlines.

If you’ve genuinely got the choice of both you’d be stark raving bonkers to join Virgin. Just my two cents.

Wait time for lifestyle/part time contract
 

Would anyone know how many years seniority is currently required to get lifestyle/lifestyle+ rosters at Virgin in the RHS?

Could you just elaborate why so? I think there are good things about this new virgin contract and heard being junior on BA longhual can be quite tough.

A colleague had sim assessment last week and the scenario he was given was Loss of Communications followed by Bomb Threat.
He subsequently failed as was hand flying the sim at that time.
Comments please including from the TC who set this scenario who in my humble opinion is unsuitable for this task.

When have Virgin actually made a profit? How old is Branson now? What do you think is going to happen to it after he shuffles off this mortal coil? All these robust redundancy agreements sound nice on paper but the proof will be in the pudding and a company under threat will ultimately do what it likes and worry about the niceties later, we saw all this during Covid. A friend of mine at VS has aged about twenty years in the last five, now if the 750 hour thing comes to pass then that’s great but I would not be handing over my financial future to an airline that has barely ever made a profit and the owner is fast approaching his late seventies. That’s essentially what I mean about my two cents. Yes junior at BA is hard but you’re not junior forever and I’d be far more confident about my paycheck in five to ten years time.

Just to understand, he failed because he was flying manually, as in didn't use the autopilot to reduce workload .. or failed because he was flying manually and became overloaded?

My point was/is that he would have been overloaded regardless and the scenario set was unrealistic and unfair.
His partner was given an engine fire at 11000 ft which was extinguished.
When a candidate reaches the sim stage they should be treated with respect as they are a good candidate and capable.
That is how it is with BA selection.Unrealistic scenarios can overload anyone of us.

For those weighing up BA or VS, I think go with your instinct. BA is a career for life with probably more opportunities, undoubtedly make far more money and are a much bigger company. Although I do think having survived covid we’d get through most things. Branson only put forward a fairly small % of the cash injection, most came from other investors. We make plenty of money, VS are just too clever to call it profit, otherwise you have to pay tax. I personally enjoy it here despite finding it difficult working environment the last couple of years. Thats changed over the last 6 months and i think our new deal puts us in a good place again. Command time sits at 8 years right now vs BA’s 15+ for widebody.

Always 3 days off required between east to west or west to east. 4 days off if youve been to the far east.


year 1 SFO basic about £97k, with additional 6k in sector pay. £103k total. All of it is pensionable at 15%.

Theyve promised that anyone who wants any contract (part time/booster/750 etc) will have it granted as soon as they can. More recruitment needed now. Hopefully they deliver on the promise and i think a lot of pilots dont trust the company to deliver on that. Understandable after what they did over covid. New joiners must do 12 months on base contract before applying for another.

Interesting, thanks. For comparison, BA begins on just over £71k with what I expect is about £25-30k in allowances. Take home probably fairly similar but pension only on basic, so significantly less there. Allowances at BA are a good 30% of your take home on PP1 so sickness/fatigue/leave/part time all gets heavily punished financially, just as BA wanted of course. If Virgin go back to 750 hours there's no arguing it's a better deal on paper.

Ah all these stupid companies around the Uk paying tax on their profits are missing a trick here, all they have do is claim they’re loss making, simple as that! Sorry for being facetious but I’d like to think HMRC are a bit more switched on than that, if not then it’s no wonder the UK is close to bankruptcy! VS indeed got through COVID but as a result they’re now leveraged to the eyeballs, which will be weighing them down for decades.

Don’t get me wrong I’ve no desire to see VS go to the wall I've got many happy memories of travelling them to the States as a kid and don’t even think they necessarily will but my point was if you’ve got the choice between the two (and you have no time invested in either) then you go for the more stable option every single time especially if, as you say, it gives you more career options into the bargain.

(Edited just to say imagining Delta as a white knight saviour here is tempting but it should also be remembered how much money they put into Virgin during COVID, the square root of sweet Fanny Adams)

I am lucky and young enough to have no dependents, or mortgage to worry about. so job security isn’t the highest priority to me but still a consideration.

The VS and Branson thing doesn’t matter he is old but has no control over the company it’s delta who call the shots.

just looking at the new pay deal the money looks healthy I wonder how long I need to be in BA until I make that sort of cash.

anyone in VS know how easy it is to pick up overtime and days off right now and in the future. Also what’s this talk of an all Airbus fleet?

I believe in LH for example the allowances etc… amount to probably around £20k . So probably on £90ish ???? Pp1
could someone clarify

With how busy it is nowadays, £30k minimum.

The BA/VS debate is always going to be a personal decision and not one that anonymous forum dwellers can make for you.

Direct entry on BA LH will mean losing every weekend for years, having very little bid satisfaction for a long time, huge blocks of reserve and a lot more time away from home as trips can be up to 9 days long and fewer mandatory days off after duties. Some of the junior 777 rosters are eye-watering. The trade off is that the trigger for 3 pilots is a lot lower and more trips attract more time downroute, so your work life gets easier at the expense of your home life. There’s also a much larger route and fleet network and many more pay scales so the likelihood of getting bored of the job is less in the long run. At the end of the day, owned by IAG, BA aren’t going anywhere. Allowances are much better as well.

At VS, the rotating bid groups work well (unless you’re on the 350 which is chronically understaffed at the moment) and mean that every three months you should have a successful roster bid. Also rotates for annual leave so every 3rd cycle (leave bid cycles are for half the year) you should have a successful leave bid. The mandatory three days off after long two pilot duties that the new deal protects is great, as well as the east-west transition rules. Although after they get rid of the 333 we’ll see an increase in 3-pilot, 2 RDO trips (more akin to BA). Another perk of VS is that if no exterior disasters happen, you are looking at 7-8 years for a long haul command, roughly a decade quicker than at the other flag waver. The downsides are that the route network is a LOT smaller, there is no fleet bidding, you get what you’re given. As it stands, over winter the 787 does most of the interesting routes, MLE, CPT, JNB, PVG etc. The 330 takes most of the Caribbean and east coast workhorse stuff and the 350 does the west coast, LOS and India. Again, you have no choice in what you get. Those on the 350 with flexible schedules can earn thousands a month in overtime just moving duties around a couple of days, overtime on the 330 doesn’t really exist at the moment. All subject to change if the fleet structure changes.

Personally, my opinion is if you’re young and single and want to stay in the UK, BA is your best bet. However, if you have family you enjoy spending time with or are joining a bit later in life VS is a great option. Majority of people at Virgin are a pleasure to fly with and just want to have an enjoyable trip. You’ll almost always find someone to have a beer with or fill your downtime.

Nice breakdown appreciate the info. what would a very junior roster on the A350 at VS look like, would be easy to pickup extra work for a few quid. how does the 750 hour/ 90 sector roster that might be coming work as I understand someone new will be put on a base contract.

What are the time zones though, that impacts the EW as less than 3 hours difference normally means only 1 day off required

Due to the bid groups, “junior” rosters don’t exist. Roughly the work is spread out evenly every month and if you are in the top or middle bid group your monthly bids for things like specific trips or days off _should_ be more successful. There’s some discrepancy with bid groups on the 350 as they are so short in the RHS that rostering often have to ‘unlock’ the bids in order to fill the flying program.

A quick look at a low seniority 350 FO roster for next month shows 5 trips, 4x one nights to ATL and LOS, 1x two-night to MCO and 15 days off. No idea what this person actually bid for.

The best way to pick up extra coin on the 350 is just shifting trips forward or back a day or two and taking the disruption payments for what would have been your days off. Is it easy? Extremely.

Back to basics - how long are Delta prepared to support VS financially? A detailed review of their finances suggests that they would need to make substantial profits in order to service their loans (Note: money is not legally able to be “gifted” by Delta due to anti-competition rules).

https://www.gridpoint.consulting/blo...sses-at-virgin

UK Gov were also not prepared to provide any financial loans to VS in Covid, probably due to lack of assets.

Admittedly it’s all about the LHR slots - arguably they could be included in a valuation provided they remain solvent, but that wasn’t enough for UK Gov.

In relation to previous posts, I struggle to see how the minutiae of contracts is relevant with such an elephant in the room!

And yet, Zenon recently phoned me out of the blue and asked for an updated CV which they were very happy with, and which they forwarded to Virgin. Despite my qualifications and years of experience*, the answer came back no. I am not in the first flush of youth, was this a factor ?

* I am A330/A350 type rated and have flown that type long-haul for many years with two respected UK airlines, so I would have only needed a few days refresher SIMs to slot straight onto their fleet and fill a RHS.

The time before, when I applied; they put me through all the on-line cadet psychometric tests etc. Is it really necessary to put long term rated and experienced pilots through the same process ? Surely just a chat with the Chief Pilot to make sure candidates are normal, mature people, and a successful SIM revalidation would suffice ?
.

If only .. the problem is of course that many who ace these tests end up being insufferable in the flight deck.

Yes, exactly. Passing online "pattern Sudoku" within very tight time limits or 30 maths question in 12 minutes, etc., does not tell anyone how balanced, normal and mature a candidate is, and how likely that they will be a pleasant and reliable crew-mate on Atlantic or Indian Ocean crossings.

If a pilot has years of actual airline experience and of recurrent bi-annual SIMs on the same or similar large aircraft, then they have proved through their experience and record that they can multi-task and handle a busy wide-body cockpit in a busy TMA.

Anyone at virgin know anything about this rumoured 330neo order to replace the dreamlinersd and go all airbus, with crew doing full mixed flying between 330/350. I have heard about the mixed flying but wondering if there was anything solid behind it.

No more LHR-PVG ?
 

...
VS are stopping the daily Shanghai from end of October 2024, whatever that signifies. Apparently it's a 787 route.

https://onemileatatime.com/news/virg...nghai-flights/

LFH

Wait for Farnborough. Unlikely all 787s going, rumour is just some.