I Would really appreciate some 787 rosters if anyone has them and could PM me. Or at least trips per month and days off on average. Trying to compare my 78 current roster with a VS 78 roster to see how feasible it would be lifestyle wise

Many thanks!

...
Which roster would you like to see ?

This is what we got in the pub late the other night ... He's on the airbus and he were well disgruntled. Not 787 specific but it might give some idea.

• The roster which was issued because of a 'human error' and was cancelled 24 hrs after issue.
• The roster that replaced it, which bore no relation to the first and which arrived several days later, only a short while before the beginning of the month,
• The record of actual work done (or not done) which bears little similarity to either of the above rosters

Ask not what the cost to the company is ...

• For payment of overtime, extra or disrupted flights,
• For unwise or barely legal scheduling economies
• To pay for the rumoured imminent mystery scheduling system. JSS Lite perhaps ?

He said it depends on the fleet, but overall it didn't sound pretty.

LFH

I hadn't realised a large part of Virgin orbit's debts are on Virgin Group's books. The latest developments there can't be helpful.

Times; "The company, whose LauncherOne rocket was unsuccessful in January, is to pause all its operations and furlough hundreds of staff amid financial pressure and a struggle to attract investors."

Does anyone know if the requirement for SFO is 3000hours airbus/boeing time , or total? The job ad is amiguous. Thanks

You must be currently flying of have flown one of the following AC types in the last 6 months - Airbus A319/A320/A321/A340/A380

You’ll need a minimum experience of 3000 hours of total flying time on the above. This must include at least 500 hours current on type (hours spent solely as a cruise pilot are not included).

Any interpretations? 500 hours on type and 3000 total time just wishful thinking?

3000 hours on your type. If not you’ll be on the FO1 pay point. £67691 then FO2 £69876 then onto SFO1 £82048.

Should be 3000 hours total time plus minimum 500 on type

Thanks all!

3000hrs on type in an LCC is command upgrade, on roughly double that pay

Which UK-based LCCs pay Captains with 3000hrs £164k/yr, and have layovers in the Caribbean?

🤦🤦
Apples and oranges.

British Airways it seems

The comparison was between staying and getting a command, or becoming a Virgin FO, not Virgin direct entry command - I'm pretty sure Virgin FOs don't get £164k/year.

The quote was that LCC CPs are: I don’t know any LCC CPs on £164k but a yr 1 VS SFO is on £82k basic.

Fletch:
I doubt BA would consider themselves a LCC though. How long after joining before you are on both £164k and a long haul fleet?


I’m a VS SFO, a couple of years in; last year I did 640hrs and made £104k gross, with extra working payments. Airbus Commands are currently going to people who joined in 2017. And I’ve been a LCC Captain - the pay cut to move across to VS (pre covid) has definitely been worth it. Long haul is not everyone’s cup of tea, I’ll grant, but few airlines are as good as they were 10, or even 4 yrs ago, including BA. What’s the time to RHS LH in BA at the moment?

If you don’t want to join, fine - you do you. We probably don’t want you, anyway. Good luck to the rest of you.

Not sure about orange or pink LCC but certainly RYR no line Captain is on anywhere near £164k. Even with the “you can earn £xxx that RYR spout which includes the pension contributions RYR put in. RYR state £8k pension contributions for Captains.
I didn’t take command at RYR moved on instead. As a year 1 I’m getting more pension contributions from employer then what RYR pay Captains!!
Add that to my predicted salary so far this year and glad I didn’t take command.
RYR year 1 Captain around £105-£110k if you take pension off.

Nowhere is perfect.
The only benefit of LCC I could see was the 5/4.
Command salary meh. Working up the pay scales of Virgin and BA you get a guaranteed payrise. Not massive but as above 4 years in either carrier £100k a year as an FO not adding on the pension, food, uniform costs etc etc is possible. When I told my mates who are LHS at RYR my take home plus pension it got them thinking!!

Answering the question LH LHS at BA is a way off, 15 years plus, I haven’t checked recently.
You slide over to that PP.

A320 didn't say they get £164 k - he said they get double VS FO pay, which is correct.

It’s not though. 3000hrs at RYR command ready. Have to pass course. Then first year £90k basic with extras not including stupid pension £105kish.
Go to Virgin with 3000hrs on type and straight to £82k minimum.

So it’s not double even on FO pay. Captain after 3 years at RYR is around £120k from what take home I have seen that adds up to that.

Not even close to double even after 3 years LHS at RYR.

...plus 15% company pension and full private healthcare for the family. And no Type-rating costs whatsoever (they may be bonding now, but pre-covid I wasn't bonded at all). So lob that onto your £82k. Any LCCs offer a free type rating, full PHI, and 15% pension?

Horses for courses, though: Stay low-cost and fly to ALC & back 5 times a week in four stripes for the next forty years, if you like. Personally I'd had enough; I am enjoying my flying and the social/travel aspects of the company, and just about manage to scrape by on a meagre £104k/yr as impoverished FO.

But, as above, not for everybody.

Are you not worried about the future of Virgin ?

Well quite. But they've got through very rough patches in the past which I didn't think they would.

My P60 at Ryanair on non disrupted years was about £128k. I absolutely loathed long haul, (though I eschewed much of the socialising so a to avoid being consumed by overwhelming fatigue and jet lag). Ryanair was a decent company and I would happily go back there; (and they gave me a free type rating btw) probably my favourite employer before my current company which is really fantastic: - narrow body, and P60 at about £145kk as a standard line shag.

I think any airline that survives Covid has a decent chance.

my biggest worry is what happens after Branson!

RARA9 - not really. Things as they are are not worrying, considering the history of the company and what we've just endured. Show me any airline which you can 100% depend on nowadays.

Even BA, EK, etc have shown they wouldn't hesitate to dump you on the kerb in a heartbeat just for being on the wrong fleet/the wrong nationality if things turn downward. I figure I might as well enjoy the good times while they're here & if the worst happens, it happens. 20 years of short haul misery at BA, or getting battered 5 days a week at a LCC for your whole career, is a high price to pay for what is only an illusion of stability.

I personally like being paid to sit on beaches and doing one flight a day, and when I'm sitting on my rocking chair at 80 it'll be nice to have some decent stories and adventures from my flying career that don't all involve 25-minute turnrounds and disruptive passengers.

20 years of shorthaul misery at BA ? I don’t know anyone that had to spend that length of time on SH if they didn’t want to.

Fair enough, I was considering LHS; since the original comparison was between SH LHS and VAA RHS, but I concede the point. What's the current time to Long-haul RHS in BA?

Well right now people join SH and you’re frozen for 5 years. 2018/19 they were taking some directly to LH. Unusual. I know loads who went SH 2017/18 and some going 350/787/777 this year. Again once you move frozen for 5 years.
This is all normally. BA can and have changed the rules.

I agreed a lot with what you say Rostermouse. I thought seriously hard between going LHS SH or jumping. As I hadn’t had the money I took latter. I want to be old with memories of, yep I flew here and there rather than just smashing out 4 sectors a day 5 on 4 off for 30 years. IMO dull as dish water and I would probably give up flying before my time comes in that situation. The most miserable Captains I have ever met are SH long timers.

I'd be really grateful to hear from any experienced FO's who made the switch to VA for long term RHS gig. Im mid 30s, single, approaching command on 320 ULCC. Were you happy with your decision, do you ever look back and wish you had given SH command a go?

Part of me tells me to take the command while I can get it, get some hair on the proverbial knuckles, as well as future proof the CV for any turbulence down the road. So if I get made redundant or something at VA, I'll be able to apply for 320 Command positions rather than FO. That option would mean staying where I am for next two years. Also I feel giving up command now will mean I don't see it for several years, whichever company I end up going to, even if I move to another 320 operator for example. I fly with a lot of captains 10 years my senior who were FOs for many years, from ME3 or similar, and they all came to my company solely for command. Which is telling

On the other hand, maybe I should just bite the bullet now and not put command on a pedestal. Take the wide body experience, solid salary, pension scheme, and being part of a 'proper' airline. And hopefully end up LHS on a wide body before I retire! NO idea how I would adapt to Long haul, I have to think it would be less tiring than entering discretion a few times per month, 4 sector days etc.

I've read the thread, understand this has already been discussed in some detail, but appreciate any opinions!

Regards

I've been through all this sort of thing and with the benefit of hindsight, I can say that for me all that matters is money in my bank and time spent at home. I gave up my first opportunity for command to go and scratch the wide body itch as an FO. It was fun but I prefer being a narrow body skipper on a decent money and home every week with no jet lag. Time spent in hotels down route works for some but after a dozen times in the same place it soon wears thin. I'd take the highest pay as soon as you can get it. Make hay while the sun shines...

Totally agree!

Aside from the Command, the income as a Captain will make life considerably easier in respect of mortgage applications, disposable income etc.

I have also scratched the long-haul itch and, although I enjoyed the additional experience of wide-body aircraft ops, I much prefer getting home most nights.

Long term, I don’t think all those time zone changes are particularly healthy and conducive to a long retirement.

If I was considering a long-haul career, Virgin or Norse would not be at the top of my list of choices.

the flipside of the argument is I feel I spend more quality time at home. I have more days off. I don’t ever have jet lag. You’re not down route long enough to get it. I couldn’t hack setting my alarm at 4am 4-5 days in a row or getting to bed at 2-3am 4-5 days in a row. I never saw my kids. I can plan my life. Which I couldn’t do at shorthaul. But it really is a personal thing. You won’t know what suits you until you try both unfortunately.

Solid advice lads! Thanks for the input, food for thought indeed.

I am LHS 320 based in the UK. I am 75% part time fixed days and work almost exclusively Monday Tuesday and Wednesday and will continue to do so indefinitely.

last year I earned approx £110k (including a 5% bonus which may well not be repeated) plus 7% pension.

I can honestly say there isn’t a job I would swap this for. Sure I’d love to spend a few days getting paid to sit on the beach but you can’t have it all.

You’ve got to admit that your working pattern is the exception rather than the rule. I’d snap my arm off for that lifestyle. I fly longhaul for the home life, not for the destinations. I don’t for a second believe I’d get that kind of home life if I was still at my former SH airline. Though it is nice to bring people with me on the longer trips.

Senior LHS at Southwest can do the same schedule and make at least £200k, with 15% pension, and historically 10% bonus on top. And they just voted to strike by 99% if things don't get about 25% better....

But then you have to live in America....

I was born in the EU, have lived in 10 countries, flew in the EU for years and for the last 15 years have lived and worked in the US. You couldn't pay me enough to move back there. LITERALLY, because look at the pay rates... I really liked it there too, but my QOL here is very good. I live in a very nice city, commute to work, but still spend 15 days at home, and make about twice as much at least. I go back to visit my relatives, and their lives are not that much different from the life in the US. I do know the US is not for all of us, but neither is Europe. Brexit anyone?
#nov2010 🤣

As a fan of the USA (and their mostly more generous spirited people), even back when the UK and the US were not so dissimilar in wealth and enterprise, it is now almost painful to go there and realise how American spending power (and reward for aspiration) has left the EU and UK way way behind in a feckless socialist fug, which Virgin crews will be reminded of each time they head west. So that comment above can only be made by someone who is unaware of the relative decline of their European bubble (and the EU bubble is a delight compared to brexit UK which is so diminished, it will soon be poorer than Poland, and indeed the poorest state of Mississippi). Long haul/short haul/Virgini/Ryanair - if you're stuck in that bubble, you're the poor relation, and getting poorer, so after tax pay differs little whether you work flat out, join the best paid company or whatever aspiration - for as long as you're ruled by "soak the rich" gerontocracy serving an economically inactive blob, sustained by a dwindling number of clobbered workers paying absolutely wilting levels of tax.

This has gone way off topic….

Advice
 

Hi All,

Apologies for the long winded comment.

For context I’m a young(ish) FO, made redundant by a certain poorly run uk regional airline. I’ve a start date as an SO with VAA later this year, and have assessments with Tui and potentially others.

I’m instructing for the time being to see me through till VAA, and by no means do I want to come across as ungrateful of my situation, I’m extremely chuffed I’ve got a job to go to.

That being said, I find my self indecisive about where I want to end up, for what I hope is a career job. I never saw myself going LH this soon, as I view it as unfulfilling in comparison to SH and would like to be home more often than not. That being said my biggest worry and possibly my main gripe is job security (term used lightly given the sh1thousery of this industry), probably a paranoia grown from a double whammy of redundancies. I’m not asking for anything directly, just if anyone had any honest guidance/advice or insight into these companies and/or this point in my career. Thanks lads/Ladettes

I think it’s a very sensible thought process.
I think no airline is “safe” but some obviously safer than others ….
Virgin supposedly a seniority based airline showed their true colours during covid with an absolutely shocking display if any other virus/downturn happens be braced for a kick out the door.
LH isn’t what it was as most airlines are shortening trip lengths when they can. I know many routes on the 777 at BA which are now just 1 nighters . Mates at Virgin saying the same thing. By all means fly a large jet ! It is fun for a while …. But ultimately it’s just another Jet . Lifestyle should be number 1 factor I think followed by cash/risk.
just my thoughts …

In addition to what the poster above said; each and every large legacy carrier showed their true colours during the pandemic. In the LCCs there's constant chatter about company finances and sheer number of flight cancellations being unsustainable etc. No job in aviation is 100% secure, and most LHS pilots or trainers in major airlines have a patchwork past of different airlines going bust or making them redundant. That being said we do seem to be on a bit of a boon at the moment. If lifestyle is what you're chasing, get to an airline with a base in/close to a city you want to live in, reduce your time on the motorway and commuting expenses. At the end of the day it doesn't really matter who you fly for, the legacies will keep you away from home in hotels, the LCCs will have you operating through the night to the east Med where you may as well be stopping over somewhere for how much use you are at home the next day.

Find what you enjoy the most about the job, lock in on that and the closer you can do it to home, the better. Enjoy the ride whilst we're still on the top of the wave.

I hope I can offer some ruminations. I can’t be prescriptive. Some of the concerns you mention remind me of me, when I was in your shoes but with another large UK airline with LH

A thing that gets glossed over when taking jobs in this game is being honest with who you are as a person and how the place and the way it goes about things would fit you.

Listen to your gut instincts. That isn’t hocus pocus. Ask me how I know. I ignored mine. I just had a baaaad vibe about the direction I was taking. Like bad juju about the place even driving through the gates to join (not VS I’ve never worked there). But I ignored it using stupid piloty good for nothing in the real world logic

VS has a track record in the nasty behaviour redundancy stakes as do both the legacy carriers . And hotels and Legacy carriers go together.

If you think being away in hotels is not going to be you then full time LH is going to lean right into that particular corner of your brain long term and amp it to “are you crazy”. It never goes away. There’s no escape from that disconnected on the road feeling and half packed suitcases and majority missed weekends. Modern Full time LH isn’t the job many think it is. My outfit it’s trip 2 off, 5/6 trips a month. It wears thin after about 5 minutes. I personally think choose an airline that has part time options available from the beginning.


You could join VAA, and if you hate it, apply elsewhere but it’s not like switching jobs is easy int his bloody job. It’s months of stress and test and your personal life tipped upside down yet again for months. What a pain in the arris, especially as you’ve been through enough. You could stick out instructing and wait for Tui assessment. How would that feel? If Tui offered you a job now and you had a choice between that and VS how would that feel? I’m just playing with it but don’t be afraid of your own doubts. Stare right at them