81% said no

19% said yes

85% of ballots returned.

That says it all I think.

OK then, now you've got a mandate, what next?

Good luck to you all.

Hardly.

Only 69% of BALPA members voted no, and even with a very optimistic company membership of 80%, that is barely half of all pilots. In reality, probably less than half the pilots in Flybe actually voted no, so guess exactly where Jim et al will tell you where to shove your mandate.

Says a lot about BALPA to me. Overpriced and bone idle.

Otto, the company doesn't know how many pilot's are in Balpa though. As far as they know it might be 51% or 100%.

Yes they can guess, like you did with 80%, but they don't actually know.

The point is it is a no vote. They want to keep pissing people off they'll get a bigger no vote next time. More people may join Balpa if the next offer is as bad. Hopefully.

Otto

what are you trying to say ? Or more importantly..............................
what are you trying to start !!!!!!

Otto,

Using your way of looking at it look at it this way - only 19% said yes!

Which, using his numbers, is about 90. Out of 700.

Only about 65% of voters voted in the UK general election. What's your point?! You don't have one!

We voted NO. Let's see what happens next...

Just curious,

How do your terms compare to those of other E195 pilots in Europe? Q400 pilots in Europe? Consider both newhires and experienced pilots on both fleets - how do Flybe compare in terms of pay package, etc.?

Well done guys (and BALPA) :D
I'm sure the real FINAL offer will be on its way soon
As usual the only things lost are:
Interest on the loan you have given Flybe for the last year of back pay
and loads of good will and respect
Its not the company I joined years ago
Old Jack would be turning in his grave

Assuming the numbers that Otto Throttle has used...

The best guess would be 500 pilots in Balpa, or which 85% voted. Which comes in at 425 pilots voting. If this is applied to the ballot results, it's quite clear that only 80 people actually voted in favour of the pay deal. That's 80 out of 500 voters. Whichever way you look at that, it's pretty much a landslide result.

One of the greatest ironies in life is that people say "I can't stand politics, I don't follow a party, I don't vote", but yet, when these people are faced with problems, they are normally the first to complain about it. I wonder how many applications BALPA received in the run up to the ballot results?

I can almost guarantee though that if the remaining 15% of votes had been case, it would have even highlighted the divide more. I am aware that a few people didn't get their ballot papers, but equally, this result gives a good indication as to the depth of feeling amongst us.

assymetricdrift. Well said

Shouldn't you be in bed? :E

Damned (very!) earlies! :}

Iver, a quick comparison of basic salaries of Flybe and other Q400 and EMB operators, here is where everyone starts;
(Figures for other carriers from PPJN so maybe slightly out of date/they now get more! Other currencies converted to £ as of todays rates)

•  
  • F/O CAPT
    
    
    
•  
  • FLYBE
  • £25,068 £53,500
  • AIR BERLIN (Q400)
  • £40,704 £68,880
  • CITYFLYER (EMB)
  • £34,986 £56,969
  • AIR BALTIC (Q400)
  • £29,100 £42,420
  • KLM (EMB)
  • £41,049 £112,444
  • GULF (EMB)
  • £41,592 £59,412

The competition,

•  
  • BMIR
  • £34,843 £56,932
  • BMI
  • £46,109 £72,361
  • EASYJET
  • £40,659 £82,325

:{

Not true. Ireland is just around the corner.

Looking on the Flybe website, the figures by Serenity are for the Dash8 - I am guessing that the salaries for Emb FO/Capt are higher?

Flybe Jet

£36k
£59k

All these are basic salaries, duty pay at Flybe is pretty poor/non existent at £1.90 per hour.

So if the salaries at BE are so poor relative to other airlines, why do any pilots opt to work there?

Dear 720b,

There are many reasons I and many of my colleagues 'opted' to work for Flybe... This doesn't take away our right to fight for better terms, conditions and pay. It will help us, but also hopefully help to decelerate the slide of general industry conditions...

Thanks Without Advice Taken

There we are then

720 b
"opted" ...........
thats got nothing to do with our terms and conditions might be different on planet 720B

Emloyment choice
 

As most are aware choice of employer is not always down to the candidate! For many of us Flybe was the only job offer we had, for others location played a part. One thing is certain, historically when the market boomed (i.e. when their employees had a chance to work for alternative airlines) many - up to 30 a month resigned to go elsewhere. So when they employed around 350 pilots they were losing 8% of them every month to the competition. This is due to a mixture of factors but pay and lifestyle are the main ones I think. We work a 5/2 roster with only a compressed weekend between finishing on a late and starting on an early and it's fatiguing compared to other types of flying with less sectors on a quieter and more automated jet.

The company takes the view that people will always want to move on to bigger and better things and sees itelf as a training airline but with an increasing jet fleet and a lack of opportunity elsewhere this simply isn't true.

If rosters and pay improved many more would choose to stay with Flybe. the company is expanding and secure, plus offers local basing. It has newish aircraft and excellent training so I suspect could with a few small changes become a genuine airline of choice for many.

DP

flybe is not a training airline anymore. You would think management would want that . Sadly they dont because they would have to pay more money. Start treating the employees accordingly and it would definately bring respect for both sides
well said DP

Shafted again
 

Here's one for you. Slightly off the immediate topic, but of interest to at least half of us.

Hands up all who thought that the ex-Bacon crowd were "red-ringed" on their higher salaries until the Flybe pay scales caught them up at which point we'd all be living in perfect harmony on the same pay for the same service doing the same job?

Until today I would have put my hand up, but I've just overheard some chat amongst the ex-Bacon barbiejet crowd and apparently things are not quite as they seem.

It would appear that in Bacon when you got promoted you moved from your pay point/increment on the F/O's pay scales to the same numerical point on the Capt's pay scale. ie If you'd done 5 years as an F/O you were put on pay point 5 of the Capt's scale. Good for them you say.

However, when they now get promoted on to the shiny Flybe jet fleet (as some of them now are) they stay on that pay point. So an F/O who got promoted after 5 years service in Bacon, 5 years ago, will go onto the jet scale at PP 10. That means he'll no longer be red-ringed and will be on £66600 whilst a Jersey original with the same service (all with JE/Flybe!) will be on £62900!

Shafted again!

It is worth pointing out that the figures being quoted by Serenity do not take into account the various other extras that different companies throw in. I can only speak for easyJet, but the £82324 is only the basic pay for a Captain. You also receive £25.79/sector and are likely to fly between 400-450 sectors a years. If you do any form of training you get paid 12.5% for a Line Trainer or 17.5% for a TRE. As a TRE you get paid for 2 sectors' pay for being in the sim plus £60 and on a Line Training Day you now get a further £20/day. In addition all pilots receive a loyalty bonus of 5% of basic on the anniversary of joining after 2 years. That goes up to 10% after 5 years and 15% after 10 years (no incremental pay). Finally, the company contributes 7% of basic to salary. In practice that means that most Captains earn in excess of £100k and a TRE earns around £125 - 130k. If you work in Spain, Italy or France you will earn substantially more, but the contract structure is totally different. There is an ongoing dispute about pay (is there not always?) but however you look at it, going to an Airbus company instead of FlyBe has substantial benefits.

The good news for all the strugglers at FlyBe is that at the end of the year there is a good chance we will change our policy of taking newbies from Oxford, CTC etc and go for people with extensive experience. I can only commend that change if it occurs.

By comparison Olympic are looking for Dash8 F/O`s for extendable 6 month contracts in Athens.

3,300 Euros
700 Euros allowances
25 Euros ph overtime past 75 block hours
1,000 Euro accomodation allowance + transportation

This is per month
4,000 Euros = £3,364

Flybe F/O starts at £2,089 total before tax, no o/t, no living, pay your own fuel!!!!

NSF - no offence meant, but I suspect that most captains don't want to work for Easyjet. I certainly don't. If I did I would have applied years ago. However, I am pretty sure that most f/o's would bite your hand off.

As Deskpilot says, a few changes to T's and C's and the disposal of the paddle steamers could make Flybe a good place to work. I for one am committed to staying and trying to make things better.

Hmmmmmm, I am not sure 'most' is correct.

I think the point that NSF is trying to make is more about the disparity in rates of pay between the two companies. I'm not saying we should get everything the EZY guys do, but we certainly deserve a damn sight more than this.

Let the fun begin! But rest assured were not gonna settle for anything other than a realistic deal!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Interesting times!

O and the Engineers and Cabin crew are standing by for a similar deal!

Again cannot agree, I do not think we are standing by for a good 'realistic' deal here, I think after the management tour of the bases they will have found out that actually there are a lot of people that would have gone for the payrise but not the scheduling. Do not be surprised to see a simple pay offer, similar to the one already offered, accepted!
It is not what we are hoping for but I am sure from what I have heard in more than one crewroom it is what will be accepted. Shame.

You're right cutoff.

For me the payrise offered was "reasonable" (apart from RPI + 0.5 in year 3, which isn't a payrise), it could have been better of course. But the scheduling part of it is taking the piss, they may as well not have bothered.

NSF

You say that EJ may open up recruitment to the masses towards the end of the year, do they not need the pilots now with the impending summer schedule? Do you actually think this is likely to happen? If so great, they'd be able to source most of their pilots from Flybe, there will be an exodus on Biblical proportions if that is the case.

Cutoff, with regard to captains leaving, you are probably right and in a way I hope you are. The only thing that would really improve our T's and C's would be if the company actually believed that they were about to lose skippers in significant numbers.

Well as long as you can have a say about your base than ezy here we come!

Slightly off topic, but certainly related is the subject of ex-Bacons and their red-ringed pay.

Hands up all those who thought the "red-ring" would eventually bring about pay parity between "us" and "them"?

I sure did, but apparently not. It seems that it goes like this:

in Bacon when promoted from RHS to LHS you stayed on the same paypoint (eg 5 year FO gets promoted gets paid at PP 5 on the command scale). Now if (when) they get onto the Flybe Jet fleet they keep that paypoint, so a Capt who joined Bacon 10 years ago in the RHS and got promoted after 5 years will be on PP 10 on the Flybe scale, whereas a JE/BE original following the same path will be on PP 5 a difference of nearly 4 grand. Presumably this applies to those ex-Bacons that are already on the jet as well.

So we'll never be equal - JE/BE/Flybe originals will always be the poor relations.

Yep, I am red-ringed so salary decreased dramatically over last years, no annual increments. Some original BE mates thought I would still get the increments but no way....

But let's hope we ALL stand together for netter pay across the whole workforce!

I like Flybe but it wouldn't take long on these payscales that FO's have to do extra jobs outside of flying, who would then look after me on my old day when I miss something? Not the FO who is half a sleep after his cut-short weekend where he did a bar job. (sound too familiar like A north American situation)

..and in English?

can we leave any industrial action until after lunch next fri so I can get back to the Rock please?

Oh, and the first weeks in March and April are a bit inconvenient.

Joking apart, it would be interesting to see what impact strike action would have on some of the more dependent communities such as Mann. Especially in an election year.